Mr. COLE. How long have you been in the Government service? Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Since 1904.

Mr. COLE. Where were you before you came here?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Immediately prior?

Mr. COLE. Yes.

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. I was supervisor in charge of reimbursable funds. For 12 years I was in the Indian Office in Washington.

The CHAIRMAN. When you say there are 275 Indians farming this land, do you mean that the families of those Indians represent 275that there are not 275 able-bodied Indians that are farming the land?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Two hundred and seventy-five farmers.

The CHAIRMAN. Two hundred and seventy-five actual farmers? Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Farmers.

The CHAIRMAN. Then, on the basis of five to the family, that would represent more Indians than you have?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. That is my understanding of it. There might be four or five to one farm allotment.

The CHAIRMAN. Might there not be half a dozen children there on the same farm-counted on that farm?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. We would not count them as farmers. The CHAIRMAN. I think you said these Indians were farmers here before the white men came, and farmed then, and you gave that as a reason why they are farming equally as well now with the white men. Is that a fact? Were the Indians farming up here equally as well before the white man came in and gave them water as now?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. They had their own crude methods of irrigation; and I am told that 20 years ago there was much more Indian farming done than there is to-day. I can not say definitely as to that myself.

The CHAIRMAN. You have not been here very long in the actual field service, and therefore have not, probably, a knowledge of what is actually going on. Since 1904, I understand, you were 12. years in the bureau at Washington, and that brings you down to 1916, and the balance of the years in actual service outside, and this is the first agency that you have ever had control of?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So you are not really, in my judgment, maybe you are in your own, qualified to give the very best testimony with regard to this matter.

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Probably not.

The CHAIRMAN. Therefore, as to this farming question, we probably will be able to get testimony that will satisfy the members of the committee perhaps better than the testimony that you have given Just a question or two with regard to the school. What is the youngest you take them in at?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER Six years.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the oldest pupil you have?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. One that is 19.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the average?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. This year we have a great deal of the younger class.

The CHAIRMAN. I noticed the children all looked small. Of course, you have been here only five months. What becomes of the children

who have gone to this school heretofore, who have passed through it You do not know what has happened to them at all?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. I see them on the reservation, and they go bac to the camp life.

The CHAIRMAN. Exactly the same as they lived before?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Not exactly. They dress like white men and like white women.

The CHAIRMAN. I know that there is no use of my asking ques tions, because you have not been here long enough to know what i going on. That is all.

Mr. CARTER. About this tribal herd, how many cattle did you say were in the tribal herd?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Fourteen hundred and fifty.

Mr. CARTER. To 1,700 Indians?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. TO 1,720 Indians.

Mr. CARTER. Have any of those Indians any stock of their ownindividual stock?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. CARTER. What is the most cattle that any Indian on the reservation has of his own?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. I do not know what the largest owner has.
Mr. CARTER. About what would they average?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Very small holdings.

Mr. CARTER. Milk cows mostly?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. No; range stock, Herfords?

Mr. CARTER. How do they take care of the stock that they own individually?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. They graze it on the range.

Mr. CARTER. I understand. Do they take care of it or let it die in the winter and let their stock run down?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. They do not take as good care of it as they should.

Mr. CARTER. They care for it reasonably well.

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Yes.

Mr. CARTER. What would be your idea as to their capacity to take care of this tribal herd if it were divided among them?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. That is a question contingent somewhat on what is done with the reservation. For example, I believe we have the so-called American Falls Reservoir project which will take about two-thirds of their hay land. If that is taken out of their tribal land it is a problem that is new and will have to be worked out. They will have to raise the hay on their own allotments.

Mr. CARTER. What is the total acreage on the reservation?
Mr. ASCHEMEIER. 447,940 acres.

Mr. CARTER. Do you not think that there are many of the Bannocks, Shoshones, and others who would be able to take care of their portion of the tribal herd if it were distributed among them? Mr. ASCHEMEIER. I think so.

Mr. CARTER. Do you not think it would be a good idea to distribute those cattle among them in order that they might, themselves, learn to care for their stock?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. We have that subject up now with the office.

Mr. CARTER. You think that it should be divided among the ones who show capacity?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. I would not divide, but sell it to those who are capable of taking care of it on the reimbursable plan and let them get the herd so that those that do not participate in the distribution will get their share of the proceeds.

Mr. CARTER. The herd now belongs to the tribe?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Yes.

Mr. CARTER. So every Indian has an interest in the herd?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Yes.

Mr. CARTER. Would it not be practicable to divide that herd, giving each man the share his family would be entitled to, if they were all divided?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. I do not think they would get enough to pay them to fool with it.

Mr. CARTER. They would get three or four head apiece.

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. They would simply eat them up.

Mr. CARTER. If they had more they would take care of them?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Did I understand you to say that the tribal herd was owned by the tribe and purchased by tribal money?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The Government advanced the money on the reimbursable scheme?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. It was bought out of tribal funds and a small amount, $16,000 of reimbursable money, was used for the purchase of the herd, but that has been repaid.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know when this school was established here?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Has it been here a good many years?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. RHODES. Inasmuch as you have had to do with the matter of reimbursable appropriations in your experience in the field, may inquire what use is being made of the reimbursable funds for agricultural purposes on this reservation?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. We have used approximately $91,000 on this reservation. There is about $40,000 of that which has been repaid and $49,000 still due.

Mr. RHODES. For what particular purposes have those funds been used?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Purchase of implements, working teams, and seed.

Mr. RHODES. Have you gone far enough into the matter to know about how the Indian is meeting his obligations?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Some of them are meeting them fairly well and I believe others are not.

Mr. RHODES. As a rule, how do the Indians feel toward any effort on the part of the Government to assist them?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Some seem appreciative and others look at it as they would gratuities issued in previous years.

Mr. RHODES. The majority of them?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. I should say the majority of them view it as a very helpful policy.

Mr. RHODES. You have had to do with this matter a considerable part of your time. Based on your knowledge and experience, I will ask you if that is a success?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. I think it is.

Mr. RHODES. You recommend its continuation?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. That would depend on the income of the Indians. On a reservation like this, where they have an income from leases I would not recommend it.

Mr. RHODES. Then, in so far as your knowledge of the proposition goes here, is the Government making any effort to encourage the Indians to pursue this method?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. Of buying things for them?

Mr. RHODES. Yes.

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. We bought some seed wheat for them this year and that is all.

Mr. RHODES. Do you propose to continue or discontinue the method here?

Mr. ASCHEMEIER. My idea would be it ought to be discontinued. Mr. RHODES. That is all.

STATEMENT OF MR. W. G. SWENDSEN, STATE ENGINEER OF IDAHO AND COMMISSIONER OF RECLAMATION.

The CHAIRMAN. Please give your name to the stenographer.
Mr. SWENDSEN. W. G. Swendsen.

The CHAIRMAN. You are familiar with this irrigation project here?

Mr. SWENDSEN. Yes, sir: I have been familiar with it, generally, for a number of years, and since taking office have been custodian of the water-rights records, with which, of course, I am familiar.

The CHAIRMAN. You are invited here to-day for the purpose of giving this committee the benefit of your knowledge with regard to the situation that confronts us in reference to getting better distribution of water that is already impounded for this irrigation

scheme.

Mr. SWENDSEN. Yes, sir. Perhaps the purpose of my being here is to give any information I can to this committee, and particularly in the thought that since this development is necessarily connected up with the development of the adjacent territory, that there is information along these lines which the committee ought to have.

The CHAIRMAN. If you have any information, you can go ahead briefly in your own way and give us the benefit of what you think we ought to know regarding it.

Mr. SWENDSEN. Idaho, from the standpoint of her agricultural development, is now confronted with the necessity of outlining a complete plan which will utilize the balance of the unappropriated waters of the State. On account of the strategic position that this reservation happens to be in, cutting as it does clear across, practically, the Snake River Valley, it is a sort of a barrier to our development and must necessarily be taken into account in the general rounding up and final development of the valley of the Snake River. With that development, which heretofore has been on the ine of the least resistance, if we are going to get the greatest good

it of our resources, it is necessary for us to plan for the future, › develop the ultimate plan, and then take on such new projects and esign them so that when we are through they will all fit into the hole. It so happens that there are lands still susceptible of deelopment on at least three sides of this reservation-private lands. -pproximately 70,000 acres of land situated in what is known as e Bancroft district are susceptible of irrigation from the water upply of the Blackfoot River, and that constitutes one source of apply available for these lands. The lands are in private ownership, ow dry farmed, and need a supplementary supply in order to ature profitable crops.

The farmers now owning those lands are already perfecting an rganization for the purpose of obtaining water from this source. am advised that they are now asking for the appropriation of more ater and for permits to proceed. That can be accomplished from he physical and engineering standpoint by the exchange of at least portion of the water of the Blackfoot River and Blackfoot Reseroir upon that land and giving in lieu thereof water from the nake River, through canals which are now already constructed and. must be enlarged in order to take care of the discharge, at least, over certain portion of the distance. The lands west of the reservation n need of irrigation aggregate from 15,000 to 20,000 acres. Those ands are likewise largely in private ownership. They have been ormed into an irrigation district, and steps are being taken to ›rocure water. That tract of land can only be served by carrying vater across the reservation. The source of supply may either be y enlargement of the present storage at Blackfoot, on the river at irays Lake, or from the Snake River direct by storage.

From the standpoint of the best use of our water supply, it is highly desirable that this general plan be carried out. These tracts f land are among the most fertile in the State. They require, peraps, less water than the land in down river, because of the fact hat there is greater precipitation in this territory than there is in he lower river. The State has the question of utilizing the greater portion of its water in the up-river drainage, by reason of the fact hat a large portion of the water supply of the lands again finds its vay into the stream, but with the lands situated up river that water ecomes again available for use down below.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, that takes in a very broad view of the rhole irrigation system of the State of Idaho, and we are more particularly interested in the improvement of the situation right ere, in which the Indian is so vitally interested. As I see your cheme, so far as we are concerned, it would apply particularly to ertain lands that will have to be taken away from the Indians if our general Idaho reclamation scheme goes into effect.

Mr. SWENDSEN. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. And if your scheme of impounding water takes ertain acreage away from the Indian, that would be the only interst that this committee would have in the general reclamation scheme. of the State of Idaho.

Mr. SWENDSEN. No; I think your committee is directly interested n the whole plan.