Mr. NORRIS. How will it be under the new arrangement?

whole of their time, nor to exceed one-visions of the article on the judicial bar, county officers, and every person half of their time. And, therefore, department the duties of circuit judges that I know of, whose attention has when gentlemen tell us that the judges are to be increased hereafter, by the been called to this subject,-and it has upon the circuit have to devote their diminution of the number of circuits? been a subject considerably agitated entire timeMr. COOLIDGE. I understand that. during the last few years,—are in favor Mr. CONGER. Then I ask the gen- of increasing the salaries of circuit tleman if in his circuit there happens judges. They expect that the deleto be less duties to be performed now, gates in this Convention from that will not there be a necessary increase county will vote for increase of salaries. of duties under the new arrangement? I should be very sorry to go back Mr. COOLIDGE. I understand that, home, and be obliged to give as an exalso. cuse for refusing to increase the salaries of circuit judge, that pork had fallen, or that any article of commerce was cheaper.

Mr. COOLIDGE. I cannot say. Mr. NORRIS. Therefore the argument of the gentleman is not applicable.

Mr. COOLIDGE. I am telling gentlemen what has been, not what is going to be. A dozen gentlemen have said that my statements about circuits have not been sustained by what they know about other circuits.

I think that for the last two or three years, the salary of fifteen hundred dollars a year has been too little. I think the amount proposed by the committee on salaries, twenty-five hundred dollars a year, is enough as a general rule. There are some circuits undoubtedly, where I am bound to suppose a greater sum should be paid; hence, I would be in favor of some amendment.

But there is another thing; I am not prepared to say that the people of this State will enter info such views as have been advocated upon this floor. If there is anything upon which the people of this State will look with some caution, it will be upon salaries; and when they have been doubled, and more than double, I think we have gone far enough. And I will not vote to pay the circuit judges more than twentyfive hundred dollars a year, when if I did so I should believe the people at large would not favor it.

I have heard nothing here to change my views on this subject. While I am willing to pay a proper salary to these officers, I must determine that matter with reference to what I believe to be the popular opinion upon the subject. While I can support what has been reported by the committee on salaries, I do not wish to go beyond that.

Mr. CONGER. The gentleman speaks of the present duties as if they were to be the rule hereafter. I ask the gentleman, with his close logic, whether that is a fair deduction, when we have already provided for additional duties?

I believe it is the duty as well as the interest of the people of this State to pay their public officers a fair and liberal compensation. I am not in favor Mr. COOLIDGE. There are two of paying the circuit judge, or any other other things, perhaps three, to be con- officer, a high salary, even that he sidered. It has now become, under an should have something to live on in act of the Legislature, the habit of his old age. I want to pay him a fair circuit judges to send to referees a compensation, that he may devote the great deal of business, which was not the whole of his time to the business formerly done; that relieves the cir- of his office, and not have his attention cuit judges very much. Another distracted by being obliged to resort thing, it is proposed in this Constitu- to other means to support himself and tion that a circuit judge may appoint his family; that he may be indepen a person to do a great deal that he dent, and feel that the duties of his of has to do himself now. I suppose no fice require his whole time, and that in gentleman who advocated that propo- giving his attention to the duties of sition did it with any other view than his office he is receiving a salary suffithat there were important duties which cient for his support, and the support would be performed by the person so of his family. appointed by the circuit courts. I believe the circuit judges should Another thing, I apprehend that there be paid as much as, if not more than, will be an intermediate court between the judges of the Supreme Court. It the justice of the peace and the circuit is a well known fact that our circuit court. As I understand the views of judges, going from county to county, most men upon this floor, they expect that will be done; I do.

Mr. HOWARD. I am very much in favor of the proposition to increase the salary of the circuit judges to three thousand dollars a year. I believe that a man who is competent to discharge the duties of circuit judge, and does discharge those duties, earns that amount of money. The fact that the circuit judge devotes, or should devote, the greater part of his time to the discharge of those duties, furnishes to my mind a sufficient argument for this increase of salary.

and holding in many counties two, three and four terms a year, in none less than two, must devote their whole time and attention to the discharge of their duties. On the other hand, the judges of the Supreme Court, many of them, find time to devote to other pursuits; several of them are professors in the State University. For that service I believe they receive a compensation equal to the salary of a circuit judge at the present time. I may be mistaken in that; if I am, I would thank some gentleman to correct me.

any

other

When it is proposed here by half a dozen gentlemen that we should pay the circuit judges three thousand dollars a year, and that their services Mr. NORRIS. They receive a thouwere worth three thousand five hunIt is true that a circuit judge is not sand dollars a year for that services dred dollars, I supposed at the time employed all the time in holding terms Mr. HOWARD. There is no circuit there was a little shrewdness about the of court. But it is well known to judge in this State who can find time proposition. If a man wants to get a members of the profession that very to devote to the discharge of hundred and fifty dollars for a horse, much of the service he is called upon to duty. In the larger circuits they he is pretty sure to ask two hundred or perform, is performed in vacation. He hardly have time to prepare themtwo hundred and fifty dollars, so as to has to keep himself posted; he has to selves for the proper discharge of be able to fall a little. And I supposed read, to look up cases. It is necessary, their official duties. It requires assidthat when gentlemen talked about three for the faithful and intelligent dis-uous labor from one year's end to the thousand dollars, and thirty-five hun- charge of his duties, that he should other to enable them to accomplish dred dollars, they were afraid the Con- employ the greater part of his time in that. I believe that the duties pervention might not be willing to come preparing himself, in rendering him- formed by a circuit judge, when looked self competent for the faithful dis- at in the light of experience, will satcharge of those duties. isfy any individual, whether he be My constituents, members of the lawyer or farmer, that those duties are

up to twenty-five hundred dollars.

Mr. CONGER. Does not the gentleman understand that by the pro

more onerous than those devolved this question this forenoon, before we certain judicial statistics from the variupon the judges of the Supreme Court, take a recess. I am confident that the ous counties of the State. Nearly all and they are very important. mind of every man is made up, one the counties have responded; and

Mr. HENDERSON. I call for the previous question upon the pending amendment.

A lawyer, who is in successful prac-way or the other, and that no matter from the statistics thus received there tice in this State, will make on the how many speeches are made upon has been prepared a table which is quite average five thousand dollars a year. this subject, they will not change a valuable to us for the facts which it No one would think of taking a lawyer single vote. I hope we will have a contains. No response, however, has who was not able to earn that amount vote before the recess. of money in his practice, and making a circuit judge of him. Still gentlemen of the Convention here are asking such lawyers to abandon their practice, to go upon the bench and assume these additional and increased responsibilities for less than half, or about half, that a good lawyer can earn by his profession.

The previous question was seconded, and the main question ordered.

The PRESIDENT. The question is upon the amendment of the gentleman from Kent, (Mr. FERRIS,) to increase the salaries of circuit judges from twenty-five hundred dollars a year, as reported by the committee on salaries, to three thousand dollars a year. Upon this question the yeas and nays have been asked.

It requires some time for a person by the practice of his profession to qualify himself for the discharge of the duties of a judge. Every judge must be a lawyer; every judge should be a good lawyer. We must take these The yeas and nays were ordered. things as they are. We should fix a The question was taken, and the salary here which would secure for the amendment was agreed to; yeas 41, people good talent; which would se-nays 32, as follows: cure for each circuit in the State a good judge, who can give his whole time and attention to the duties of his office.

been received from four counties of the Lower Peninsula which are within but a day's travel; and as the statistics from those counties are desirable to complete the table which has been prepared, I desire to offer the following resolution:

Resolved, That the Secretary be instructed to notify the clerk of the counties of Kalamazoo, Monroe, Eaton and Oakland, that the Convention is waiting for the judicial statistics requested of those counties, with others, some weeks since; and that the returns received be published in the journal.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection, the resolution will be entertained.

No objection was made.

Mr. TURNER. I would like to in-
quire whether the design of this reso-
YEAS-Messrs. Barber, Bills, Blackman, lution is that the returns already re-
Chapin, Chapman, Conger, Crocker, Dan-ceived be published now.
Howard, Huston, Lawrence, Leach, Longyear,
iells, Desnoyers, Divine, Ferris, Giddings, Holt,
Mr. NORRIS. Yes, sir.
Lovell, McClelland, McConnell, McKernan, Mr. TURNER.

I would be in favor of the proposi- Miles, Miller, Norris, Purcell, Rafter, Rich- the returns from Genesee county will I hope then that mond, Shearer, T. G. Smith, Stoughton, tion to allow the board of supervisors Sutherland, Turner, Utley, Van Valkenburgh, be excepted. I know that in those reto pay the judge an additional com- P. D. Warner, White, Winsor, Withey, Wil-turns there is a very material error. pensation, if I thought the mem-liams and Woodhouse-41. If the resolution be modified so as to bers of this Convention NAYS-Messrs. Aldrich, Alexander, Andrus, would Brown, Case, Coolidge, Duncan, Duncombe, provide that the returns from that not increase his salary to three Elliott, Farmer, Germain, Hazen, Henderson, county shall not be published until thousand dollars a year. I know that Holmes, Kenney, Lamb, Luce, Morton, Mur-corrected, I shall have no objection to in my own county our judge has very don, Stockwell, Thompson, Walker, M. C. the proposition. ray, Mussey, Musgrave, Ninde, Sawyer, Shelfrequently appointed special terms of Watkins, Willard, Winans, Yeomans and the court, at the solicitation of members of President-32. the bar, and the prosecuting attorney, Mr. DANIELLS. I move that the in order to save the county the expense Convention now take a recess. of keeping prisoners in the jail, and The motion was agreed to; and acthe inconvenience attendant upon keep-cordingly, (at half-past twelve o'clock ing prisoners from one regular term to p. m.,) the Convention took a recess the other. I know he has frequently until half-past two o'clock p. m. come there and held special terms of court; the case frequently arises when it is convenient to him to have a special term. In a large circuit like ours, with a judge holding four terms of court

AFTERNOON SESSION.

Mr. GIDDINGS. I desire to say that I believe that these returns, when obtained, will be of but very little use; because, if sent here at any time soon, they must be very hastily prepared. I learned from the clerk of Kalamazoo county that to prepare these statistics properly will require a very long time -longer than he is likely to be able to give before the closing of this Convention. He could not go over the records and ascertain the facts called for by the resolution in less than two or three weeks. I think, too, that the returns received from the other counties are not strictly accurate. Hence, I believe that these statistics will probably be of little use. very I do not, however, desire to oppose the resolution; I am Mr. NORRIS. My impression is

The Convention re-assembled at halfa year in some of the counties, past two o'clock p. m., and was called it is not to be supposed that to order by the PRESIDENT. a judge can attend to his ordina- The roll was called, and a quorum ry private affairs, and attend to all of members answered to their names. those duties for a salary of twenty-five hundred dollars a year, and feel that he is properly compensated. I do not absence from five o'clock this after-willing to vote for it. Mr. WOODHOUSE. I ask leave of believe there is an intelligent man in

LEAVE OF ABSENCE.

the State of Michigan, when he under-noon until next Thursday morning that the gentleman from Kalamazoo,

stands the duties devolving upon a
My business at home is such as to re-
circuit judge, who will ask us, as the quire my attendance there for one day

(Mr. GIDDINGS,) is somewhat mistaken

as to the correctness and value of the

representatives of the people, or who at least. I have been absent but one statistics thus far received. I know will himself do so, to vote in favor of

fixing the salaries of circuit judges at less than three thousand dollars a year. I think it ought to be at least that amount.

Mr. LEACH. I rise to express the hope that we will come to a vote on

day during the session.

Leave was granted.

JUDICIAL STATISTICS OF COUNTIES.

Mr. NORRIS. I desire unanimous consent to offer at this time a resolution. It will be recollected that sometime since the Convention called for

that there has been no difficulty in the county of Wayne in sending up returns which, although not in the precise form specified in the terms of the resolution, are just what we want. These statistics have been called for with the expectation that they will be useful to

:

shall have no objection to so modifying is only 19. It must mean 119, or a
the resolution.
still larger number. That is one of
the errors I have noticed.

us in dividing the State into judicial
districts, if the committee on the
schedule should deem it proper to Mr. TURNER. I desire that the
recommend such a division in the Con- returns from Genesee county should
stitution. The simple fact as to the not be published until we can get fur-
number of days of the sessions of court ther returns from the clerk of that
in each county during the year 1866-county.

Mr. LOVELL. That is undoubtedly an error.

Mr. NORRIS. I modify my resolution by inserting after the word "received," the words "with the exception of the returns from Genesee county."

The resolution, as modified, was

adopted.

which can be ascertained by five min- Mr. LOVELL. I would ask in what
utes' inspection of the records-will be respect the return from Genesee coun-
of great value to us. If it is desired ty is defective.
that Genesee county shall be excepted Mr. TURNER. In one place, where
from the resolution in order that cor- it speaks of the number of cases dis-
rections may be made in the returns posed of within a period of, I think, The following is the statement which
already received from that county, I eighteen months, the number returned the resolution directs to be published:
Causes in Circuit Courts of Organized Counties of Michigan pending January 1st, 1866, and July 1st, 1867; Number
disposed of in that period by Trial, or Judgment; aggregate amount of Judgments in Civil Causes; Number of
days session in 1866.

In the Circuit Court for the County of Wayne.

Amount of

Judgm'ts for

h Term.

$22,526 52

62,575 27

43,193 38

39,644 62

59,592 90

35,066 92

2

31

49

4

1

3

42

40

15

57

6

35

17

155

129

42

2

38

221

3

Mr. HOLT. I move to amend by With this view, I was ready at any adding after the words just adopted time to vote for giving an ample salary these words: "but not during the term to each of these officers. But when I of office for which such officers were found that the Convention had deterrespectively elected." The clause will mined not to require these officers to then read: "It shall be competent for reside here, or to give their constant the Legislature to increase or diminish attendance to their official business, I the salaries herein provided, but not voted for smaller compensation, for during the term of office for which the simple reason that I know, partially such officers were respectively elected." from my own observation, and also Mr. STOUGHTON. Mr. President, from the information of those in whom we have provided in the Constitution I place implicit confidence, that these what the salaries of these officers shall officers do not now give their entire be. Now, it seems to me simply ab- attention, nor any considerable part of surd for us to say that the Legislature their attention, to the business of their may increase or diminish those salaries departments here. without any limitation. If this provision be inserted in the Constitution, the power of the Legislature may at any time supersede the provisions of this article with reference to salaries. In fact, it would be eqvivalent to having no constitutional provision at all with regard to salaries. I propose, as an amendment to the amendment, to add to the words already adopted, instead of those proposed by the genN. B. This statement does not include either decrees, the following: "by a vote of twotleman from Muskegon, (Mr. HOLT,)

9

or amount of decrees in Chancery.

SALARIES.

66

The PRESIDENT. The Convention, when it took its recess, had under con-ment so as to include the amendment Mr. HOLT. I modify my amendsideration the article entitled "Sala- of the gentleman from St. Joseph, (Mr. ries." Amendments to the body of the STOUGHTON.) The clause will read if

article are still in order.

LEGISLATIVE REGULATION OF SALARIES.

When I voted for the compensation of the judges, I did it with a belief that the compensation should be such as to induce men of the first rank in the profession to take these judicial positions; and if inferior men should get upon the bench, I would give the Legislature power to reduce their compensation, so as to oust them from office. That is one reason. I will state another. Suppose that we should expe1850-and there appears to be strong rience such a crisis as occurred prior to indications that such a thing may be I would desire that the Legislature the power to grade these salaries in should, in such a contingency, have proportion to the salaries of all other officers in the State-not public officers, but private officers-officers of banking institutions, manufacturing estabMr. McCLELLAND. I desire to lishments, insurance companies, and offer an amendment which I offered in other officers. My object would be to committee of the whole. It will speak place these officers, public and private, for itself. It is to amend section one as nearly as possible on an equality. by striking out the following words at Hence, I think it was improper for the the close of the section: "It shall not Mr. MCCLELLAND. Mr. President, gentleman from St. Joseph to denomibe competent for the Legislature to the gentleman from St. Joseph, (Mr. nate this an "absurd" proposition. increase the salaries herein provided," STOUGHTON,) may consider a proposiMr. MUSSEY. I think that perand to insert in lieu thereof the words, tion of the kind which I have offered, haps the gentleman from Wayne (Mr. "It shall be competent for the Legisla-"absurd." That, however, seems to MCCLELLAND) is a little too sensitive in ture to increase or diminish the sala- me rather a strong word to use. If regard to the remark of the gentleman ries herein provided." the gentleman had examined the con- from St. Joseph, (Mr. STOUGHTON.) It Mr. ALEXANDER. On this amend-stitutions of other States, as I have seems to me a little inconsistent, not ment, I call for the yeas and nays. done, I think he would not have ap- to say absurd, to provide for fixing plied such a term to this provision. salaries, and then afterward delegate Now, sir, I would ask the gentleman to the Legislature the entire power of from St. Joseph what is the difference making those salaries more or less, as between leaving this subject of salaries it may choose. I presume that this is entirely to the Legislature, as is done all the gentleman from St. Joseph YEAS-Messrs. Aldrich, Bradley, Brown, in most of the States, or putting meant to say. This is the view I took Case, Coolidge, Corbin, Crocker, Desnoyers, it in the form in which I have framed of the matter when the motion of Duncan, Hazen, Henderson, Holt, Huston, this provision? I have voted with the the Lawrence, Longyear, Lovell, Luce, McClelgentleman from Wayne was

The yeas and nays were ordered. The question was taken; and the amendment of Mr. MCCLELLAND was agreed to; there being yeas 39, nays 38, as follows:

my amendment be adopted, "It shall
be competent for the Legislature to in-
crease or diminish the salaries herein
provided by a two-thirds vote of the
members elect to each House, but not
during the term for which such offi-
cers were respectively elected."

land, McConnell, Miller, Morton, Musgrave, gentleman for the different salaries made. But at all events, I am Norris, Purcell, Rafter, Sawyer, Shearer, enumerated here, with the excep- opposed to leaving the question in T. G. Smith, Stockwell, Tyler, Van Valken- tion of two or three. I voted against this position. burgh, Walker, P. D. Warner, White, WilI would prefer that

Daniells, Divine, Duncombe, Estee, Elliott,

lard, Williams, Winsor, and Wright-39. those salaries for the simple reason that we should either provide that these NAYS-Messrs. Alexander, Andrus, Barber, the Convention had determined not to civil officers shall receive such salaries Bills, Blackman, Chapin, Chapman, Conger, require the State officers to reside here. as the Legislature may prescribe, or Farmer, Ferris, Germain, Giddings, Howard, I have been under the impression that else that we should fix the salaries perKenney, Leach, Miles, Murray, Mussey, Ninde, they should reside here, or at all events manently in the Constitution; and I Pringle, Richmond, Sheldon, Stoughton, that they should give most of their at-apprehend that the State officers and Thompson, Turner, Utley, M. C. Watkins, tention to the business of their respec- the judges would prefer to have their Withey, Winans, Woodhouse, Yeomans, and the President-38. tive departments here at Lansing. salaries fixed and defined in the Con

Vol. 2-No. 103.

tion might not be so high as they would desire, rather than that the question should be left in uncertainty and their compensation be subject to the caprice of the Legislature.

stitution, even though their compensa- gentleman, whom I desire to treat at me, the salary of the officer should be all times with the greatest respect. All reduced. The duties of other officers that I intended to intimate was, that, may be, and probably will be, increased. after we have specified particularly in The duties of the Superintendent of this section, what these salaries shall Public Instruction will in all probability be, it involves a little inconsistency, to be increased as the State continues to But, sir, I object to the amend- say the least, to declare that the Legis- advance in population. Hence it seems ment on another ground. I ap-lature may at any time increase or di- to me impossible for us to fix the prehend that there is not much minish these salaries. This was all that amounts of these salaries in the Condanger that the Legislature will I intended to say; and I certainly stitution in such a manner that they reduce salaries. That body is not meant no discourtesy toward the gen can remain permanently and be such ordinarily very much inclined in that tleman from Wayne. as we shall desire to have them hereaf direction. The Legislature, however, ter. Consequently, I am in favor of under pressure of circumstances such the provision adopted on the motion of as we have had for the last few years, the gentleman from Wayne; but I think may be induced to increase salaries its operation should be somewhat reNow, so far as I am concerned, if we stricted by the amendment which I are to designate amounts of salary at have proposed. all in the Constitution, I prefer to fix those amounts definitely and permanently.

Mr. GIDDINGS. I ask a division of the question on this amendment, so as to take the question first on inserting the words, "by a two-thirds vote of the members elect to each House."

The PRESIDENT. A division being called for, the question will be first taken on inserting the words just stated by the gentleman from Kalamazoo, (Mr. GIDDINGS.)

Mr. LOVELL. I move to amend the amendment by striking out "twothirds," and inserting "a majority."

The question being taken on the first division of the amendment of Mr. HOLT, to add at the end of the section the words, "by a two-thirds vote of the members elect to each House," it was not agreed to; there being ayes 18, noes

40.

The amendment of the gentleman from Muskegon, (Mr. HOLT,) seems to me very objectionable. It provides that the salaries shall not be changed during the term for which any of these officers The amendment to the amendment The question then recurred on the were elected. How would this provis- was not agreed to. second division of the amendment to ion operate? The Legislature may, in its The question then recurred on the add at the end of the section the words: wisdom, see fit to change the salary of first division of Mr. HOLT's amendment." but not during the term of office for the judges of the Supreme Court, re- Mr. HOLT. Mr. President, I think which such officers were respectively ducing the salary, we will suppose, that some provision similar to that elected;" so as to make the last clause from $3,000 to $2,500. But that re- which I propose should be incorporated read: "It shall be competent for the duction could not take effect during in this section. We have already pro- Legislature to increase or diminish the the term of any of the incumbents. vided, by the adoption of another salaries herein provided, but not during The effect, therefore, of this provision amendment, that the salaries named the term of office for which such offwould be that the newly-elected judge in the section may be increased or cers were respectively elected." would receive a salary of $2,500, while diminished by the Legislature. Now, The second division of Mr. HOLT's his associates would receive $3,000. it seems to me that there should be amendment was not agreed to. There would be a similar discrepancy some safeguard or restriction in regard Mr. WINSOR. I move to reconsider of salary if the compensation should be to the increase or diminution of these the vote by which the Convention increased. Hence, I think any provis- salaries; otherwise there will be an in- adopted the amendment of the gentle ion of this sort would be very objection- cessant wrangling in regard to a change man from ayne, (Mr. MCCLELLAN,) able. The amendment of the gentle- of salaries. It seems to me impossible by which the last clause of the section man from Wayne (Mr. McCLELLAND) for us to fix salaries in the Constitution was made to read thus: did not meet my approbation; I voted in such a way that they shall perma- competent for the Legislature to inagainst it; but the Convention has nently remain at the amounts desig-crease or diminish the salaries herein seen fit to adopt it, and, of course, I nated, and still be such as we shall in provided." have nothing to say against the decis- the future desire to have them. It is The PRESIDENT. Did the gentleion. Bnt I think this amendment to be presumed that this Constitution man vote in the affirmative? makes the section still more objection-will continue in force a number of Mr. WINSOR. I did. able; and I hope it will not prevail. It certainly ought not to prevail. Mr. UTLEY. If it be in order, I wish to move to strike out this entire

section.

Mr. GIDDINGS. I hope we shall have an opportunity to make our amendments before such a proposition

"It shall be

years, during which time the duties of Mr. CONGER. I hope, Mr. Presi these several officers may be, and dent, that this motion will prevail. So probably will be, considerably changed. far as I am concerned-I do not know We know that in years past, various how it may be with other gentlemanchanges have been made in the duties I dislike to spend some time in carry of these officers; and we have reason ing a proposition through the committo expect that such changes will be tee of the whole, or through the Conmade hereafter. It was strongly urged vention, and then hand it over to its is entertained. at an earlier stage of our session enemies, to be slaughtered at their The PRESIDENT. As a matter of here, that the duties of the Audi- pleasure. It may be good tactics conrse, if a motion is made to strike tor General should be somewhat for the opponents of a out the section, amendments designed changed; that sales of lands for taxes get it in such a position. My friend to perfect the section will first be in should be made in the several coun- from Wayne, in leading off in this ties, thereby relieving the Auditor effort this afternoon, has done well; Mr. STOUGHTON. Mr. President, General's office from the present du- and many of those who voted for fixin the remarks which I made in rela- ties in connection with this business. ing the salaries in the Constitution, tion to the motion which, I now learn, If such a change should hereafter be have rushed on after him, so that we was made by the gentleman from made, of course the duties of that have undone the work of this morning. Wayne, (Mr. MCCLELLAND,) I certainly office will be diminished very materi- desire, however, that we shall now intended no discourtesy towards that ally; and in such a case, it seems to reconsider the proposition, and leave

order.

I

measure to