STATEMENT OF MR. FRANK SMITH Mr. HUDSON. What band of the Chippewas do you represent? Mr. SMITH. I am a Chippewa Indian. Trepresent the Leech Lake Removers to the White Earth Reservation. I will file this statement in that connection. (The statement referred to is as follows:) PONSFORD, MINN., March 8, 1924. Proceedings of the local council, Ponsford, Minn.: The council was called to order by David Bellanger, temporary chairman. First. For the appointing of delegates to represent the Otter Tail Pillagers, and the Leech Lake Removals of this locality, at Washington, D. C. In reference to H. R. 27 and H. R. 28. Motion was made and carried, whereas John Frank or Ay-quay-Gwon-abe, was appointed to represent the Otter Tail Pillagers, and the Leech Lake Removals, as regards to the aforesaid bills. Second. Another motion was made and carried unanimously, whereas Frank Smith, or Ah-ge-jauk, was elected to represent the Leech Lake Removals in company with John Frank, representing the Otter Tail Pillagers. DAVID BELLANGER, Chairman. JAMES T. CLOUD, Secretary. Witnesses: GAY-DAH-GE-GWON AY AUSH (his x mark). Mr. HUDSON. Give us your views on this matter before the committee. You understand what is before us. Mr. SMITH. Yes. Mr. HUDSON. You have seen the resolution? Mr. SMITH. Yes; I have seen it. This timber, of course, is something I know a little about, as I have been at it long enough. There is this jack pine and hardwood and some other kinds. At the time of the Rice treaty of 1889 our fathers knew there was going to be some timber left after the white pine and Norway pine, and they were satisfied to leave some timber for us. Of course, a short time afterwards, lumbermen came in there cutting everything that they could get hold of, white pine and Norway. They cut this jack pine. Our fathers did not sell that. They never let that go at that time, just the white pine and the Norway. Since 20 years past they let it go as jack pine, oak, birch, tamarack, spruce, and balsam. They have been cutting this timber, making saw logs, and selling it to the white people. There is big money in it. I say we ought to get something out of it. We had several conversations about it before we left to come down here. Mr. HUDSON. You are familiar with this survey of the standing timber made by Mr. Burns and his commission? Mr. HASTINGS. This appraisement. Mr. SMITH. Yes. Mr. HUDSON. You are satisfied with that? Mr. SMITH. I am satisfied with that. Mr. HASTINGS. You understand that it provides to give the Chippewas $1,060,887.70 in H. R. 28? Mr. SMITH. Yes. Mr. HASTINGS. You are familiar with H. R. 26, which gives you $1,787,751.36, and with H. R. 27 which gives you $422,939.01. Would the people whom you represent be satisfied if Congress were to act favorably upon these three bills? Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; these people whom I represent are satisfied. Mr. ROACH. Would they ever come back with other claims, and how long would they be satisfied? Would they come back in a year or two asking for something more? Mr. SMITH. No. Mr. ROACH. That would make a complete settlement with them? Mr. SMITH. They would not come back after that, no. That is the way we understand it. Mr. ROACH. You feel that these bills which Mr. Hastings mentioned, cover all the claims and rights the Chippewas have. Is that the way you feel about it? Mr. SMITH. No. Mr. ROACH. We are trying to find out whether or not this legislation will satisfy the Chippewas. Mr. SMITH. I say that for my part which I represent, they are satisfied. Mr. ROACH. They will be satisfied with this? Mr. SMITH. Yes. Mr. ROACH. By that, do you mean that this would be a final and complete settlement of the Government with them? Mr. SMITH. Yes. Mr. BURKE. I do not think the witness understands that there is a claim for the swamp land which is in litigation in the courts, and I do not think he intends to include that. Mr. ROACH. You understand the commissioner's statement that he has just made in regard to swamp lands? Mr. BURKE. You do not mean that by the passage of this bill that it will be a settlement of the so-called "swamp-land claim." Mr. SMITH. I do not mean the swamp lands. Mr. ROACH. Just the timber land embraced in the act of Congress? Mr. SMITH. These three bills. Mr. ROACH. What other claims, outside of those three bills, are there that the Chippewas might have, that you have in mind? Mr. SMITH. All I heard them speak about are the swamp lands. Mr. ROACH. Outside of the swamp lands, it is your understanding, and you are here as a representative of the tribe, that these three bills cover all the claims of the Chippewas. Is that right or not? Mr. SMITH. Another thing is what they call "the mineral right." Mr. ROACH. That is exactly what I am trying to get at, whether we are making a final settlement with the Chippewas in these bills, exclusive of the swamp lands, or whether there is going to be another million dollars' worth of claims brought in as soon as we get these adjusted. I want to know whether we are making a final settlement or whether this is just part payment. Now, do you understand me? You said a moment ago that your tribe would be satisfied. What I am trying to find out is whether or not, in fact, you would be satisfied or whether there are going to be other claims amounting to equally large amounts as we have under consideration. now. Mr. SMITH. I say the people whom I represent are satisfied with the three bills. Mr. ROACH. It satisfies you only as far as the timber is concerned. Is that the idea? Mr. SMITH. Yes. STATEMENT OF MR. JOHN FRANK Mr. HUDSON. What band or group do you represent? Mr. HUDSON. You are here to represent your people in the interest of these bills? Mr. FRANK. I would like to have an interpreter, to use my own language. (Mr. Peter Graves thereupon acted as interpreter.) Mr. HUDSON. Let him proceed with his statement through the interpreter. Mr. FRANK. I do not wish to make any remarks pertaining to any other bill but the bill that is under consideration, H. R. 28. As to what I know in our country pertaining to the jack pine and the different classes, other than the timber that is mentioned, those are the points which I wish to mention concerning this bill. I mention the white pine and Norway pine. That has been sold and cut and removed. But it is the timber which has been left that I have reference to. I see it in my country every day, the other classes of timber being sold, and I see that there is a great deal of money in that class of timber. I do not know that it will be necessary for me to say any more than that timber has money value. Mr. HUDSON. House Resolution 28 provides a payment to thẹ Chippewas covering this hardwood, jack pine and other hardwood timber to the amount of $1,060,887.70. Do you think that your people feel that will recompense them for this jack pine and the hardwood? Mr. FRANK. Yes, sir; I agree. I approve the bill. Mr. HUDSON. Your people understand the survey that was made by which those figures were arrived at. Mr. FRANK. Yes, sir. STATEMENT OF MR. CHARLES A. WAKEFIELD Mr. WAKEFIELD. I am from the Chippewa Reservation. Mr. WAKEFIELD. The Chippewas of the Minnesota National Forest, the White Oak Point Band. I wish to say, also, with the rest of the Indian delegates who came from Minnesota, what we feel about H. R. 28. I feel also that the Indians ought to get something for this mixed timber, jack pine and hardwood, because this is the time that the Government is ready to pay for what they have not paid so far to the Indians under that treaty or agreement of 1889, with the exception of the State swamp lands, as they call them, just now not yet ready to be settled for. The Indians all know that this mixed timber is very valuable timber now, and they feel that they ought to be paid for that timber. Mr. HASTINGS. Are you familiar with the report of the so-called "Burns Commission" dealing with the estimated value of this timber? Mr. WAKEFIELD. I have heard of the report, but I am not very familiar with it. Mr. HASTINGS. They make an estimate in their report of $1,060,887.70, and that amount is embodied in H. R. 28, the bill now under consideration. What I would like to hear you on, as a member of the committee, is whether or not you Indians would be satisfied with that amount. Do you think that is fair to the Indians and fair to the Government for the value of this timber, namely, the jack pine and hardwood and other than white and Norway pine? Mr. WAKEFIELD. It may not be enough because, as a general rule, the estimate usually falls short of the actual amount. Mr. HASTINGS. Would the Indians be satisfied with that amount? Mr. WAKEFIELD. If they can not get any more I suppose they will have to be satisfied. Mr. HUDSON. Will they consider it a settlement of the hardwood and jack-pine claims? Mr. WAKEFIELD. Yes, sir. Mr. HUDSON. You say, Mr. Wakefield, that you are not familiar with the details of the report of this commission, so called, but you are familiar with the method by which they made this estimate, that is, selecting typical tracts and that, to you, would appeal as being a fair way by which you can get at an estimate? Mr. WAKEFIELD. Yes. Mr. ROACH. In your opinion the Burns estimate on this was a reasonably accurate estimate? Mr. WAKEFIELD. Yes, sir; I believe that it is about as near accurate as it could be made. Mr. ROACH. Probably as nearly accurate as it would be possible to make it without scaling the timber all over the tracts. Mr. WAKEFIELD. I think that is very nearly accurate. lieve it to be as near right as they could make it. We be Mr. ROACH. You are familiar as to how they made that estimate. They selected average 40's of this land and used that as a basis for the entire tract; they selected indiscriminately the land, as I understand it, 40-acre tracts, that had an average amount of timber on them, compared with the other tracts, and used that as a basis of arriving at the aggregate amount of $1,060,000 contained in this bill as the value of the entire tract or timber from which you are claiming some right. That is your opinion about it? That is the way you understand they made this estimate? Mr. WAKEFIELD. Yes, sir. Mr. ROACH. You regard that as being as nearly correct as would be possible under the circumstances, without an actual measurement of all the timber? Mr. WAKEFIELD. Yes, sir; I do. Mr. ROACH. What reputation does Mr. Burns have throughout that country as a timber cruiser? Mr. WAKEFIELD. A good reputation. Mr. ROACH. He has the confidence of the Chippewas? Mr. WAKEFIELD. Yes, sir. Mr. HUDSON. Do you know of anyone else? Mr. COFFEY. No; I do not. Mr. HUDSON. We will hear Mr. Ballinger. STATEMENT OF MR. WEBSTER BALLINGER, ATTORNEY AT LAW, WASHINGTON, D. C. Mr. BALLINGER. I appear before the committee at the request of the officers of the General Council of the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota. I want to make plain what that organization is. It is a voluntary society of Indians, organized in 1913, for the purpose of conserving and protecting their estate. That organization was recognized by Congress until 1921, Congress making regular annual appropriations for its maintenance. In 1919 and 1920 this organization got into a bitter fight with the Indian Bureau over the administration of Chippewa matters, as the result of which the department did not recommend the continuance of the appropriation for the council, and no appropriation has been available since June, 1921, but the organization has continued to function. Now, I may add that this organization was shown in 1918, to represent the great body of the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota. That was demonstrated in elections held under the supervision of department officials. I may also add that that organization embraces the most intelligent element among the Chippewas. If there is any further question with reference to the organization for which I appear, I will be glad to answer. Mr. ROACH. You spoke of your having continued to function as an organization. How have the funds been provided since Congress failed to appropriate? Mr. BALLINGER. There have been no funds. The individuals have contributed sufficient funds to hold their elections and hold their council, and I have in my possession a resolution adopted at the last council dealing with the entire Chippewa situation, in which they condemned the procedure under the act of 1908. They look upon the so-called equities provided in the two bills under consideration, and I refer to H. R. 27, which provides, as I understand it, compensation as interest on the land taken. Am I correct about that? Mr. BURKE. The 5 and 10 per cent timber that was left standing. Mr. BALLINGER. The second bill, H. R. 28, provides for the payment of what is said to be jack pine and other hardwoods within, not the entire reservation, but upon so much of the land as is included in the report of the commission appointed under the act of 1908, which, as I recall, is 190,000 acres. Mr. BURKE. I think that is substantially correct. Mr. BALLINGER. I presume this committee has seen and examined a map of this forest reserve. I have a map here obtained from the Geological Survey. I want to call your Honors' attention to the exact situation briefly. The 10 sections which are referred to in the act of 1908 lie along the western border of this reservation down through here [indicating]. If I am mistaken about any statement that I make, I will be glad to have any one, with the permission of the Chairman, correct me. Mr. Burns, I have just stated that the so-called 10 sections referred to lie along here [indicating]. Am I correct? Mr. MARK BURNS. No. The 10 sections lie along the shore of Cass Lake, at about this point up on the east shore and up to the town of Cass Lake. |