Mr. ROACH. Have claims ever been made out and submitted to the department? Mr. HENDERSON. Yes; and fully discussed, and there is a report. When Mr. Lane was Secretary of the Interior he made a report. Mr. ROACH. In this particular claim, has suit been filed before the department, and the claimants lost the suit? Mr. HENDERSON. No; nothing of that kind has happened. Mr. ROACH. There have been hearings before the department on the merits of the particular claim? Mr. HENDERSON. I do not know about hearings, but the fact is that a bill has passed the Senate. There was a favorable report in the Senate; the bill passed the Senate, and it was, I think, before the House committee at one time. am not sure whether they made a report on it, but it is so simple it can be stated in a minute. The Government took the lands from the Indians for a nominal sum, with the understanding they were to be used as Indian lands, and the treaty so expressed it. They were not used for Indian lands. The Menominees refused to move on them and occupy them as homes. Their home was in Wisconsin, and, if you will look into the history, the whole purpose was not alone to get the lands, but to get the Menominees out of Wisconsin, where the white population had gone, to use the Menominee lands on Lake Michigan, to get the Menominees into a position where they would be out of the way of the march of civilization. When the Menominees refused to go in and occupy the Pillager lands, the Government had the lands on their hands and opened them up to white settlement. They gave the Menominees a consideration of $243,000 plus land, worth perhaps twice as much in money, in consideration for this tract, which the Menominees then ceded back to them. The Government got the Pillager lands upon the representation they were to be used for a certain purpose; they were used for an entirely different purpose; and the Pillager Indians came in and asked that the matter be reconsidered, and that they be given a reasonable amount, as purchase price. As to whether it is a legal claim; the report of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs indicates that there is no "legal merit" in the claim. As a legal proposition, Mr. Chairman, I submit for the consideration of this committee, whether if this were a transaction between white men or between corporations and individuals at the present time, it would not have legal merit in it. In other words, is it not a good proposition of law that if this land was sold for a certain purpose, on the expressed condition that it be used for a certain purpose, not sold so much as given away, then that there is a case there that would stand in the courts as a legal proposition. But, waiving that, there is a strong meritorious claim that the Pillager Bands of Chippewa Indians should receive, at least, as much for that land as the Government received for it when they used it for a purpose other than that which was represented to the Pillager Indians it would be used for. I will say in conclusion that what I say to you is largely out of the mouth of Senator H. M. Rice, the man who knew more about the Chippewa Indians in his day than any other living man, the man who negotiated the agreement with the Chippewas in 1889, spoken of as the Nelson Act. In his report to the Secretary of the Interior, which is embodied as a part of Executive Document 247, Fifty-first Congress, first session, on page 17, Mr. Rice tells the Secretary of the Interior rather fully about this transaction with the Pillagers under the treaty of 1847. It is found on pages 17 and 18. I will not stop to read it. It embodies what I have stated in the last few minutes. After the agreement of 1889 was negotiated, representatives of the Pillager Band wanted to get some assurance from Mr. Rice that he would help them press the Pillager claim, and he voluntarily gave to one of the leaders a long statement in writing, which is in the possession of Mr. William Butcher, one of the Pillagers, here present. He would like, when the time suits your convenience, to say something on the subject. Mr. Rice gave that representative of the old Pillagers voluntarily a statement which rehearses the whole transaction again, and speaks of it not as a "sale" of those lands but as a "loan" by the Pillagers to the Government for the use of the Menominee Indians. Mr. HASTINGS. How were the Pillagers damaged by the Menominees not settling the land? The land was gone from the Pillagers anyway. Mr. HUDSON. I think that is a very good question to get an answer from. Mr. KNUTSON. If I may make a statement, in the early days there was constant warfare between the Chippewas and the Sioux. They made excursions into each other's country and it was for the purpose of creating a buffer State and settling thereon a neutral tribe that the Pillager Bands--if I am not correct, please correct me--it was for the purpose of creating a buffer State and settling thereon a neutral band not at war with the Chippewas nor the Sioux, that this land was ceded by the Pillager Band to the Government. The Government did try to settle the Menominee Band of Wisconsin on this land in order to carry out the understanding of the treaty. The Menominee Indians refused to settle on this land, which is situated in Todd and Waubeno Counties, Minn. Subsequently the Government reimbursed the Menominee Indians for relinquishing any claim to these lands and threw them open to white settlement. The Pillager Band contends, of course, that in failing to settle a neutral band on this land as was contemplated in the treaty of 1847 the Government did not live up to its treaty and agreement, and it is for the purpose of determining or securing a judicial determination as to the validity of the claim of the Pillager Band, that we are asking to have a jurisdictional bill passed, H. R. 6493, so that this claim may get into the Court of Claims and be judicially determined. Now, I am not prepared to express an opinion as to the validity of this claim, but I feel that it should go to the Court of Claims. Mr. ROACH. What damage do they claim? Mr. HUDSON. The question Mr. Roach asked is very pertinentwhere have they suffered by the Menominees not taking the land? Mr. KNUTSON. The Indian warfare continued for a number of years afterwards, probably 20 years. I would say that constituted injury. I think up to 1866 or 1867 the Sioux kept coming into that territory; until 20 to 30 years after that land had been ceded the Sioux continued to make excursions into that country, at war against you, took your property and killed your relatives. Mr. ROACH. The damages would be so remote and speculative. How are you going to prove it? Mr. KNUTSON. I do not think so. I am satisfied this claim. knowing what I do about the matter-I am perfectly frank—I believe the Court of Claims would allow this, because if the Menominee Band had moved on to this land or some other neutral band as the Government agreed in 1847 when the land was ceded, the Pillager Band would have saved 20 or 30 years of current warfare with the attendant destruction of property. If that does not constitute damage or grounds for a claim, I will admit my ideas are all built upon sand. I think there is enough merit in this to warrant the subcommittee giving a full hearing on it. Perhaps Mr. Butcher would like to make a brief statement. Mr. BUTCHER. I am not in a position to make a statement just now. Mr. HUDSON. Have you anything further to present on this matter? Mr. HENDERSON. I might answer the question of Mr. Hastings, because I do not want to seem in the record to have evaded it. The Mr. ROACH. You have not evaded it; but you have not answered it. Mr. HENDERSON. I will try now to answer it. From the standpoint of the white man, in these days, perhaps, the question presents some difficulties. From the standpoint of the Indian, in 1847, the standpoint of the Pillager Band of Chippewa Indians, who were then alarmed about the encroachments of the whites, it was different. There had already been one cession of land by the Chippewa Nation that extended through the State of Wisconsin and halfway through the State of Minnesota. It had come close to the country of these Pillagers, and they were much concerned about the encroachment not only of the Sioux, but the encroachment of white men. Menominees were an Algonquin Tribe, closely related to the Chippewas, they understood each other's language. The Pillagers were glad to have the Menominee Indians brought into their country. They were their own kind of people. Mr. Rice shows you himself, in his report, that in order to induce his Pillager friends, as he calls them, he presented the attractive side of the picture to them, and let them understand the cession was in the nature of a loan, that these Menominees were being brought in there for the Pillagers' benefit to keep the white man that much further away from them than he would be if this land were thrown open to white settlement. As I said, from the standpoint of the Indians, or any person acquainted with the Indian mental operations, that was a very strong inducement, a necessary inducement, to secure this agreement with those Pillagers. Let me answer the question from another point of view, which I think is more to the point, and it is this: If you translate this matter into English, into its modern legal aspects. If A sells property to B with the condition that it is to be used for a certain purpose, or that it shall not be used for a certain purpose, for instance, for the sale of liquor; and B, after taking the property runs a saloon on it, and uses it for purposes he agreed not to use it for, B will not be allowed to say it has not done any harm, because the property has been made worth five times as much as it would have been if there had not been a liquor shop established there. That, it seems to me, is more of an answer to this question; the other aspect is speculative. We can not tell at this late day whether the Pillagers were actually benefited or not; but we do know that the agreement the Govern ment made with them, through Mr. Rice, one of the commissioners who negotiated the treaty, distinctly expressed the understanding that the land was to be used for the home of the Menominee Tribe. Mr. KNUTSON. Is it not a fact that the lands that are involved in this bill are among the very best agricultural lands in northern Minnesota. Todd County is considered the banner dairy county of Minnesota, and the land is worth from $100 to $150 an acre. But where the Pillager Band is now living, where you are living, Butcher, you can buy all the land you want from $10 to $15 an acre. can buy land for the taxes. Is that true? Mr. BUTCHER. That is true. You Mr. HENDERSON. It is also true that, figured in dollars and cents, the Government of the United States made gain out of acquiring the land the Menominees had in Wisconsin. They acquired those lands; got this enormous tract free for homestead entry and sale; and, in dollars and cents, there is a great deal due the Pillagers that has never been paid up to this time. Mr. ROACH. Why were the Menominees not placed on that land? Mr. HENDERSON. They refused to go on there because it was not suited to their use as a home. But they consented to be concentrated on a small reservation, inside their old territory, and they sold the rest of it to the United States; they remained and are there to-day. The Menominees are on their own reservation within their original territory. Mr. ROACH. Is there a record of that? Mr. HENDERSON. There is a historical record of the Menominees going there, examining the Pillager land, and going back, declining to accept it in exchange. Mr. Butcher, when he testifies, can probably make you a presentation of the local history of the Pillager Indians. Mr. HUDSON. One of the principal claims set up to get a jurisdictional bill so that it might be adjudicated is the fact that these prople were never paid anything for this land? Mr. HENDERSON. Nobody knows how much they were paid, but Mr. Rice in his statement said that they were paid $15,000 extending over a period of five years, $3,000 a year; not in money but in goods. Mr. KNUTSON. Beads mostly. Mr. HENDERSON. Not so much in beads as twine and ammunition, to enable the Indians to bring to the traders in that country more traffic. Mr. HASTINGS. How many acres were ceded? Mr. KNUTSON. Seven hundred and fifty thousand. Mr. HENDERSON. Between 700,000 and 800,000 they claim. Mr. HENDERSON. In the nature of things, it could not have been intended for an outright purchase. It shows on the face of it. Mr. HUDSON. When shall we have a further hearing when Mr. Butcher may come before us? Mr. ROACH. In view of the adverse report of the department, I will not be ready to act on this matter one way or the other this morning. I would like to have further knowledge as to what action has been taken by the department. Mr. KNUTSON. Is there anyone present either for or against this legislation? STATEMENT OF MR. PETER GRAVES, RED LAKE, MINN. Mr. GRAVES. I represent the Red Lake Band, a part of the Chippewas of Minnesota. Mr. HUDSON. But not part of the Pillager Band. Mr. GRAVES. Not part of the Pillagers. I am well acquainted with all of the Indians side of this question. I have heard a lot of old Leech Lake Pillager Indians speak about it. The main purpose that they made that cession was for the Menominees to be located there as a barrier between them and the Sioux. That never was done and we feel that the agreement with the Government was never carried into effect from their side. They never got the benefit of the cession, because the Menominees never did locate there and there never was a barrier between them and the Sioux. That is the claim they have. Mr. HUDSON. What did the Menominees receive for the land that the Government has taken for settlement? I am Mr. GRAVES. I do not know anything about that part of it. only making a statement as to what I know and heard a lot of those old Leech Lake Pillager Indians tell since that date and that is the main purpose of the cession, to place a barrier between them and the Sioux Nation with which they were at war all the time up until the United States Government corralled the Sioux after the outbreak of 1862 when the Government had control of them in this country. Mr. HUDSON. As the result of the failure of the Government to carry out its part of the agreement the Pillgera Band was exposed to constant warfare with the Sioux for approximately 20 years. Mr. GRAVES. The old Leech Lake Indians would tell you to-day if they were living that they called it a loan for a purpose which the Government has never carried out and from which they never got any benefit. Mr. ROACH. That is, the Government had acted as a friend between two warring tribes. Mr. GRAVES. No, the Menominee was not a party. Mr. ROACH. What agreement has the Government ever made with them that has not been kept? Mr. GRAVES. The agreement would have been as applied to the Red Lake Indians, if it had been fulfilled for the Menominees to have lived between them and the Sioux. Mr. ROACH. The Government was just interceding as a friendly agent of the Indians to put down this war between the two warring factions and because of their inability to do that are they to be charged up with all the expense and hardships and losses of warfare between two Indian tribes? Mr. KNUTSON. That land was ceded to the Government-this agreement was made in 1847, and it occurred up to the outbreak of 1862. Mr. ROACH. I think we should have the records of this whole matter to ascertain what compensation the Government has made for |