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Vol. II.]

Curious Proceedings in the Privy Council, 1608. 965 journal, however, was fortunately saved as well as BILLADIERE, LAHAY, the by having been stowed in a box of tea. botanist, is also there; having under his

In this hazardous, yet important voy- care the bread fruit trees, brought from age, of 215 persons, 36 lost their lives; the Friendly Islands. Piron, the painter; the astronomer Pearson died at Java; tarried with the governor of Jourabaga and VENTENAT at the Ise of France. DESCHAMP, the naturalist, remains with Riche, the naturalist, remains at Java, D’AURIBEAU,

1609 CORAM REG. JAC. THE RELACION OF A HEARING IN PRESENCE OF YE KING AND

YE JUDGES, TOUCHING WALES AND YE 4 COUNTIES. ALSOE SR ROBERT CECIL's SPEECH, 23 EL. ANNO 1581, CONCERN. ING YE JURISDICTION OF YE COUNCELL OF

WALES AND YS MARCHES.

The following very curious Manuscript was discovered, with others of a similar nature, among

the papers of GLYNN, once Recorder of London, and are communicated to this Work

by an intelligent Correspondent at Worcefier. We give it as a valuable Relation of an important Fact. It is strongly indicative of the

Character and Views of King James, and of the firmness of his judges.—The former, educated under the influence of arbitrary power, reluctantly submitted to the dominion of the law.–And the latter, fenfible of the necessity of bounding the prerogative, nobly strove

to preserve the limits which the wisdom of their Ancefiors liad prescribed. JAMEs often endeavoured to render himselt superior to the resiraints which the Constitution

of England had set on the Regal Power; and he had repeated itruggles with the Courts of Common Law when aiming at the Extension of the Prerogative. But with refpect to the Royal Proclamations, and in several cases of Prohibition, the Judges were victorious, and preserved. the authority of the Laws unshaken. A relation of those Facts is given us by Sir Edward Coke, in the 12th volume of his Reports, (63. 74. &c.)--And the same Writer informs us, though very briefly, in another work (4. Inft: 242,) that in the present inftance they were victorious alfo---And that in consequence of their Determination, “ his Majesty was graciously pleased that the Lord President's Commission should be reformed; whereupon the Lord Zouch gave over his place.---And yet the Commission was not after reformed in all

points as it ought to have been.The Prince of Wales who is mentioned in this Relation, was Henry, the King's eldest son,

and is represented as an amiable person. He died a few years afterwards, and it was

suspected, by poison. The Archbishop was Bancroft, a prelate accused in other instances of urging the Extension

of the Prerogative, of encouraging the King when infifiing on the Divine Right and the

absolute Authority of the Regal Sway. 66 My Baron Altham," on the contrary, evinced himself on other occasions as the firm

Defender of the Laws of his Country, Sir Robert Cecil was the son of the celebrated Burleigh.--He was in great favour with James,

and accused of favouring the Prerogative. James was correct in affirming that his Ancestors, Kings of England, had frequently fat in the

Court of King's Bench; but those days had fed.-It had long been a received maxim that all judicial Authority was delegated to the Judges.-And, therefore, though James is alleged to have fat himself in tha: Court, he was not suffered to pronounce Judgment.

KINGE JAMES

might be drawne into a question, where. CORAM DNO REGE TERTIO DIE No. unto all the Lords afsented and did agree

VEMBRIS (1608) PRO MARRCH That the Lord President should proWALLIE.

pound the Question. LL the Judges being assembled save Whereunto his Lordship answered that my Baron Altham.

for his part he made noe question, for he in The matter for the marches was moved his judgement and understanding was by the Lord Tresuror that the difference satisfied. Yet if he should make the ques. SUP, to MONTHLY MAG. Vol. II.

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tion, the fame (as he conceived) would both sides would saye and proceed in jur. be whether the Kinge appointeing him tice, as by oath they are bound; and president and establisheing a Councell therefore prayed that they might not be ibere, to whome he had comitted jurisdic- urged or drawn from the course of judges tion within the fower Shires by his inftru- in that case, to make a president thereof cions signed by his owne Royall hand, to their íucceffors that should come after allowed by the Lords of his privy Coun- them. sell & passed & approved by the then Which answere the Lords of the Countwo Chiefe Justices of the King's Bench cell allowed nut; And the Lord Chancel. and Comon Pleas, had don that which lor answered, that the matter proposed he might lawfully doe.

was to be consulted on by the Kinge & Then it was moved by some of the his Councell, as a matter of ftate, and Lords that the Question might be first that the King had his Privy Councell

, upon the lawe, before they medled with consistinge of the Lords then present, the King's prerogative.

a d that the Judges were alsoe of his Whereunto my Lord president answered Councell

, and to give their counsell when that he must make the cafe as well out of they are called thereunto, & sworne to the king's prerogative, as out of the lawe, dne that as well as to the administration wherein he was not well scene, but there of justice. Whereunto noe reply was was the King's Counsell learned, M' At made. torney & M. Solicitor, who by speciail di And thereupon the Lord Chamberlay ne rections from the kinge, were prepared and went for the Kinge, who prefently came appoynted to mainteyne his prerogative to the counsell table, and brought the therein.

younge Prince with him, who was feated Whereupon the King's Counse!l pre- upon a stoole bye, but not at the table. fented themselves Mr Attorney fpake no Then was the question read, & all the theing, but şi Francis Bacon bouldly Judges were againe, by the King, defpake sayeing that it was not (as he con manded what they thought thereof. ceived) fitt that the Case or Question Whereunto the Lord Chiefe Justice should be drawne disjoyned (that is) again upon his knees to his Majestie, crav. either to be made foort he of the statute of ed pardon to yeld to drawe it to any 34th of Hen. the 8th only or out of Question for the Cause before showed to the King's prerogative, but out of both. the Lords.

That is, whether the kinge may by The Kinge then sayed that the Presihis owne prerogative and the same statute dent and Counsell of the principality and give power to the Lord President & marches of Wales (having his Commission Counsell to exercise jurisdicion within the and Instructions) are hindered in their 4 shires, and that this should be the proceedings by prohibitions ; which (said question, as well the Lords of the Coun- he) are fought for upon these grounds sell, as the Lord President assented. that some of you (speaking to the Judges)

The question being written and read to have fayed that they of the fower thires the Judges, they made noe answere. ought not to be subiect to any Jurisdic

Whereupon the Lord Chancellor de- tion but Westminster Hall, and that he manded whether they did agree that to would saye notheing to them in genera!! be the question or noe.

before he entred into his particular Ques. Then the Lord Chiefe Justice of Eng. tion ; for his errand thither was caused land humbly craved pardon disclaymeing by many and continuall complaints of utterly from yelding to any question or prohibitions, whereby the Jurisdi&tion of giving their judgement in the same insoe- the moßt of his Courts were called in much as (though they were unworthy of question ; that is, said he, the Counsell their places) yer his Highness had con in the Marches of Wales, the Counsell stituted them Judges, wherein they were in the North, the Admiralty, the Court not to deliver their opinions, but as the of Requests, and all his Ecclefiafticall causes and cafes fell out before them Courts. judiciaļly, between party and party, al Soe that to settle those Courts belonged leadging further, that they before that to him, as Kinge and Monarch, by the tyme, knew of nce question & hoped fundamentall Lawes of this Realme, and they should nor be called to answer any the Realmes of Christian Kingdomes and question. But if the Lord President & Empires. inhabitants of those shires had any ques First. Although at the first Kinges tion, when it came judicially before them, reigned tumultuarily, yer after the Coun: they would heare what their Counsell on sell Jethro gavę to Moses, which hath

beca

Vol. II.]

if I list,

doe it my

Singular Speech of King Jameso

967 been approved by all that profeffe Chrif- And then the Kinge fayed that the tianity, they have cholen out men of judgements of all the Courts are his, & courage, feareing God, loveing truth, and you (*peakeing to the Judges) are but hateing bribes, and sett them over thou, my deputies, for I may fitt in the Chansands, over hundreds, over fifties, and cery, or in our bench, are not the proces over tenns, to administer justice in all Tejte meipfo, & is not our bench Locus ordinary and comon causes, betweene Regis, to that I may fitt and judge there party and party, reserveing to their owne

you have nothing of your selves judicature, all matters of great moment

but what you have from me. and difficulty. And this reservacion here And though I will ever defend the in England you call the King's.preroga- lawes of my realme, and will not bringe tive, and your own bookes doe prove the innovacions, yet for matter of governforme of government was used here in ment continued foe long in soe many England.

Kings and Queenes days, shall not i The Kings themselves used to ride be as able to inainteyne my prerogative from country to country to admninister as my predecessors have don, yes verely, justice, and to that end the Chancellor & & will do, in foe much as I am answereJudges of the land attended the Kinge able to God for your doeings & you to & either with or neere him decided caules me, it must needs be that your judgewhich inight casily be performed here in ments are myne, and what soeuer any in England before the heptarchie was united, this land may doe' by authority from me, and in Scotland alsoe till Scotts & Picts except it be in administracion of the sawere made one nation.

craments or such like, I

may But when kingdomes grewe great selfe. And albeyt my predecessors haue Princes became proude & waxed idle, not don it these many yeares, yet I pray and in their pride & lasinelle (which you what fayeth your lawe, Nullum temgreatnes had begotten) they thought it pus occurrit Regi, and what is all your better to layethat burthen from themselves lawe, but Voluntas Regis, and then the upon others, and soe settled the Courts lawe sayeth, Ejus est interpreiare cuius at Westmr. as now they are, in which eft condere. I may site myselfe and give judgements I speake not this for my felfe foe much (whatsoeuer hath been fayed to the con- but alsoe for iny fonne here, who is Prince trary hy one in parliament), for judge- of Wales, and when I thinke fitt jhal ments are given in my name, & espe. be sent thither. And (turneing to the cially in the Chancery, all the Records Prince) fayed, This concerneth you, to this day goe (Rege presente) and soe fir, and I hope you will loose nothinge likewise in our bench.

that is yours, and if you will, your In the begineing also the parliament father will not dureing his life. sate all together in one houle, & all Is it fitt, fayed the King, that in those causes were handled in the King's owne countries bordering about the Prince's presence, hut afterwards when the Kings houses, he, nor his Councell, should haue of this land grewe great & lazie, and further jurisdicion than an ordinary the number of the Burgesses increaseing, Justice of Peace, and that he should for more conveniencye of consultation, haue noe jurisdicion in his owne house the Comons were sent to an other house and ouer his heigh court at his gates, where the Kinge is not present, because shall he haue lesse than the meanest prefihe cannot divide his person. But no- dent that ever was. The people of these theing can be concluded without him. countries have obeyed all the tyme of 6 And although (when the houses were all or 7 Kings, my predecessors, and why one) all was don and spoken in the King's thould not they obey now as well? I lee presence & hearing, yet nowe the King euery subject stands upon his right, and may not knowe what is don in the lower euery Judge for his own jurisdicion : house.

And may not I aswel stand for my right Constantine the Greate administred & jurisdicion to leave it to my fucceffor juftice in ordinarie causes by judges de. as I found it, your felves (speaking to legate, yet he reserved causes of greatest the judges) in a case the last day which moment to himselfe, and when there concerned the Lord of Cumberland, say: grewe controversie betweene his Bithopsed that 80 yeares usage was a good or Judges, he was Judge himselfe. matter, but in this cale 180 avayleth

All Judges are but the King's Tha. notheing. dowe and ministers, & all your breves Then kneeled downe the Lord Coke,who are sent foorth in my name, and not in fayed that whether the fower thires were the Judges.

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within

within the jurisdicion of the Councell swelled so with anger, that teares fell
was questio fatti & non Juris, and ought from them.
to be tried by the country.

The Kinge further said, I have now • To whom the King's majestie angerly unfolded unto you the true lawe of free replied, did not I tell you before that you Monarchies & what I may doe. And haue notheing but foorth of the power you shall shortly vnderstand what I meane I give you, who then Mall direct mytryal? to doe, I will hear the reasons that shal be I doe knowe your meaneing, but I will made of each side, & will hould you to the not be foe tryed; doent I see that poynt, and when I doe perceave the force through the Rougishnesie of kings & of any argument or reason I will truly Princes, whoe because they would not tell

you

what I thinke thereof (as I shall fitt in parliament themselves have ad- give accompt to God) not propofeing to mitted divided bodyes as the vpper hou!e bring in any noviltye for the enlargeing & the lower, whereas if Kings & of my owne prerogative nor restraineing Princes sate themselves in parliament as of prohibicions but in cases where they they might doe, & call before them the have growne of late and have not hereto. inembers of the same together as af- fore been granted. fftante to the Kinge, he should be the Tell me faid the Kinge to the Judges better respected.

what are the reasons that move this? for Have I euer for any subject of my I proteft but that I vnderstand some of land, in any case which I affected as in you have resolved against that jurisdicion the late cale of the union; did I euer for those fhires I would leave it to your. write, send, or solicit any of you, but selves to judge. But nowe Res non eft left you to your selves, and what hath integra. Say that you have not fo afcome of this sufferance ?

firmed & I have done. None doe oppose themselves against the The judges answered the case is of jurisdicion of the Councell in the marches, great waight and moment the question but certaine light headed fellowes calling not knowne to them before nor agreed on them by the Scottish name Mounteinge when they came into that place, therefore fellowes, in English Swaggeringe fellowes, they desired time to confider thereof. such as Herbert Crofts, and others, which The Kinge answered, the question is he named to the number of three or fower, not new, it nath beene twice debated in who, because they would oppresse the my owne prefence and oftener before the meaner people, and bear the whole sway Lords, and the instrucions wch are now of their countrey, without controllement, refifted were made by my Councell & the doe oppose themselves against government Lord Chiefe Justice of the Comon Plcas & the state of a Kinge, to whome they therefore you neede not to desire tyme to knowe not what apperteyneth.

consider thereof. I knowe there might be a wiser Kinge Then said the Lord Coke, they had and more verteous, and yet I knowe I not debated the cause and conferred the am noe foole, I came not in as an vfurper, reafons to agree what should be said and but as a rightful Kinge, discended di. he was affrayde that if they should anrectly out of the Inynes of the Kings of swere single it would fall out as was said this land, and what prerogative to me of the old Brittans Dum finguli pugnant therein apperteyneth, I will hold & mayn. univerfi vincuntur. teyne to the vttermoft.

· The Kinge laid I should have said foe The cafe now in queftion is not the to you whilit every Court strives for its presidents of the marches of Wales only, owne jurisdicion the generall jurisdicion but through your hardynesse to animate goeth to wracke. men to disobedience, fee you not what The Lord Coke sayed this is a mata comes of it, that the people of the fower ter of fact g ad quefiionem facti non rethires will not be obedient to the last in- jpondent jurisperiti. fiructions for matters of xl. & vnder. Never tell me that said the Kinge, It

Is it not the presidents of Yorke his is a question of fact whether this or that case heere present, naye is it not allso the towne in Gloucestershire be in the marChurches cafe, here my Lord of Canter- ches of Wales or noe, but whether the bury prelent, none of these can proceed fower thires be comprehended in the in any Course of Justice by reason of meaning of the statute vnder the words your prohibitions graunted, wch I desire of marches of Wales is not queftio facti. you to spare.

Well, quota the Kinge, I will keepe The Lords Chiefe Justices & Chiefe my determinacion to my Reife till the end, Baron with this speech of the Kings & fith you desire tyme I will leave you

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Once

Vol. II.] Speech of Sir Robert Cecil, relative to the Marches, 1581.

969

once more to consider with yourselves af- fenceis a maritive country is kept fafe ter some fitting course, only I thought from the seas overflowing, because it is good thus much to give you taste of my now safe and soe by reason of the banks & intencion that you may know I meane to defences hath so longe remayned it were mayntayne my prerogative.

noe discretion to take away the causes of The Arch Bishop of Canterbury faid, safetie least the seas fynding the stays reyour Majestie hath truly declared the moved the country then againe fynd the ground worke of all free monarchies & danger of inundacions. lawes of kingdomes, and thai wch you It cannot blemish any people to be gohave fayed is agreeable to the word of verned, because noe people live orderly God, your giving jurisdicion to others without government, & where any governis (as you may tearme it) not deroga- ment is proved good by the fruits that tive to your selfe, but wth reservacion have ensued it is dangerous upon an opof supreame jurisdicion to you. And pinion of better successe to exchange it. whereas al jurisdicion confifterh in ques- Therefore where some have ernestly tione facti, ur in questione juris, if this moved her Majestie to exempt from that answere be allowed, where shall the fu- councell the Counties of Gloucester, preame jurisdicion be, if it be questio facti Worcester, Hereford, Salop, & Monmoth it is taken from you & given to the jury, alleadgeing that those shires shall thereby if it be questio juris, then it belongeth receave benefitt and her Majestie eased only to the judges.

of that charge which through the mainWith this the Kinge, Councell, and all tenance of that Councell her Highness arofe and departed.

now sufeyneth Sir Robert Cecill bis Speech concern

I conceave it very needfull carefully ing the Jurisdicion of the Councell in the which will follow by yelding thereunto,

to regarde the many inconveniences fower Shires or Marches of Wales.

for I am perswaded that neyther shall her 2 3tio Regine Eliz. 1581. Majestie of her present charge be thereby ALTHOUGH I am not of their mynde any whit eased; nor the inhabitants of who conceave noe change ought to be made those Shires any way benefitted. And for of auncient lawes or longe used courses proofe thereof let it first be considered in government, because the comon peo- how her Majesties expences can be lefple even naturally affecting change are sened by this course. notwithstanding with change of old cus- The charge her Majestie is putt ynto tomes ever discontented, yer doe I thinke by the Councell in the marches is by althat the proceedings of our auncestors are loweing out of her coffers 1000l. for the reverently to be eleemed and their wis- dyett of that Counceli & wages for the domes not to be preiudiced by our innova- officers of the househoide 661. 135. 43. for tions unless necesfitie doth inforce or pub- extraordinary expences & zool. by the lique commoditie occafion us thereunto. yeare for the pencion of her Chiefe Jur. - What moved the Kings of this realme tice of Chefter. to erect a counfell in the principality & The allowance of her Councell learned, marches of Wales, and to committ to their the fees of her Secretorie, Attorney, So. government the Marcher Shires of Glou. licitor, Chaplaine, purlevants, rydeing cester, Worcester, Hereford, Salop and charges, and ail other expences are payed Monmouth, I doe remember the wilde & out of the fynes which be affeffed there unrulie behavior of the people in those upon persons offending her Majesties laws. parts is recorded in ftatuts made against If by taking the marcher thires from them and their now civilitie and obedi- the Councell any parte of this her Majesence is well knowne to her Majesty, and ties charge would be leffened, it must gratioufly conceaved off.

be eycher by dyminifheing the number Therefore if at first it was necessarilie of persons who serve or of the allowance provided & Gince hath been politiquely which they receave. maynteyned for the good ensueing there. Touching the Councellors officers & by that the inhabitants of those marcher- servants of that Court I will lay only this fhires should have many of their causes that although these marcher shires be exdetermined by the councell there, I thinke empt & the 12 shires of Wales left only it very convenient to be considered by her to this government yet her Majestie canMajestie how farr the contynuance is be- not be served with fewer persons then hoofe full.

now she is & foe shall not her highnes's I will only be bould to say this much charges be eased by the number. that when by many rayled bankes, & de

The

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