involved in a conspiracy with Cuba and Panama to overthrow the Government of Nicaragua?

Colonel THOMAS. Mr. Chairman, I think you recognize, I am trying to avoid the use of the word "conspiracy." Perhaps that is the best way to describe it.

Once again, I would prefer to say I believe there is ample reporting indicating the involvement of each of those countries in support for the Sandinistas in Nicaragua.

Mr. HUBBARD. Did you attend the hearings here yesterday, Colonel Thomas?

Colonel THOMAS. Yes, sir, I was here the entire day.

Mr. HUBBARD. Then I assume you heard witnesses questioned about Nicaraguan attempts to allegedly purchase military aircraft in violation of certain laws of the United States?

Colonel THOMAS. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. HUBBARD. Do you have any knowledge of this Colonel Thomas, based on your experience with arms transfers in Latin America?

Colonel THOMAS. No, sir. I believe I must say that in my capacity, my duties, my last assignment in the Pentagon, if there were such evidence available to the Department of Defense, I would have had it up until the time of my retirement. I did work very closely with arms transfer matters throughout the hemisphere, and I have no evidence whatsoever to corroborate what was said yesterday.

Mr. HUBBARD. Colonel Thomas, would you ordinarily have access to such information in the position you held at the Pentagon? Colonel THOMAS. Yes, sir, I would.

Mr. HUBBARD. How current is your information?

Colonel THOMAS. Up to the day I retired, on May 1, 1979.

Mr. HUBBARD. Are you familiar with the order of battle of the Sandinista organization?

Colonel THOMAS. Yes, sir, I am.

Mr. HUBBARD. Can you speak to that in this session?

Colonel THOMAS. No, sir, I cannot. I believe that comes under the category of information which the Congress would need to get from the administration, from the intelligence community.

Mr. HUBBARD. In your testimony you suggest, indeed you explicitly state that the administration-I assume you are speaking of the current Carter administration-has for sometime been in possession of classified security information regarding Cuban, Panamanian, Costa Rican and, at times, Venezuelan support for the Sandinistas. You urge the Congress to explore this more fully. Colonel THOMAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBBARD. Recognizing that, you are still covered by the limitations described earlier, is that right?

Colonel THOMAS. That is right, sir.

Mr. HUBBARD. Will you tell this subcommittee whether those sources were from individual persons or from documents?

Colonel THOMAS. I believe they were from both, sir. They were spread over a considerable period of time, several months at least, and on almost a daily basis.

Mr. HUBBARD. So individual persons and documents do indicate that the administration has information regarding and has had

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information regarding Cuban and Panamanian support for the Sandinista government in Nicaragua?

Colonel THOMAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBBARD. Would you have occasion in the normal course of duty to see summaries or reports regarding such classified information?

Colonel THOMAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBBARD. So can we infer that this type of information has been available within the American Government, within the current Carter administration for some months?

Colonel THOMAS. That could certainly be inferred, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBBARD. Were these reports, which you have described, prepared by agencies of the U.S. Government?

ty?

Colonel THOMAS. Yes, sir, they were.

Mr. HUBBARD. Were they prepared by the intelligence communi

Colonel THOMAS. Yes, sir, they were.

Mr. HUBBARD. Congressman Bauman.

Mr. BAUMAN. Colonel, could you tell us, without violating the restrictions under which you operate, whether or not the testimony you heard here yesterday in this committee fits into a similar pattern of other activities in which Panamanian nationals may have been involved or does that go too far?

Colonel THOMAS. Yesterday, when I heard the testimony and saw the display of weapons over here was the first concrete evidence that I have seen or heard of the arms traffic involving Cuba. Mr. BAUMAN. Have there been other similar instances, to your knowledge, without that kind of quality of proof, that we produced here yesterday?

Colonel THOMAS. There are many different types of support for terrorist movements. I feel like I have to fall back to the recommendation that this type of information be obtained from the administration, sir.

Mr. BAUMAN. But there was nothing inconsistent or unusual in what you heard here yesterday?

Colonel THOMAS. Nothing at all, no, sir.

Mr. BAUMAN. No further questions.

Mr. HUBBARD. Congressman Wyatt.

Mr. WYATT. No questions.

Mr. HUBBARD. Congressman Lowry.

Mr. LowRY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Colonel, we received a lot of testimony on identifying the alleged problem, and I think that concerns us all. The question is what can this Nation do. What steps do you believe would be effective by this Nation in stopping the alleged support of this problem in Nicaragua by Panama, Cuba, Costa Rica? What steps do you say this Nation should take?

Colonel THOMAS. Mr. Congressman, I personally believe, and believe very strongly that the matter of U.S. embargoes on arms to the countries of the hemisphere does not accomplish its intended purpose. I use that word advisedly, intended. I am confident that the intent is genuine and proper. I think it has been entirely, if not entirely, almost entirely counterproductive. It has not slowed down the traffic in arms. It has denied to us, to the U.S. Government,

and the people of the United States that very important influence which we have had but which we are losing with many other countries of the hemisphere. When we tried to deny to any sovereign nation the wherewithal to defend itself, we force them to turn elsewhere to meet their requirements. I believe this is what they are doing and that one way or another each will find a way to satisfy its requirements.

I guess what I am trying to say, sir, is that I believe we have gone much too far in imposing sanctions against countries and if we are going to turn it around, we have to make drastic changes in our arms transfer policy, arms transfers are, in fact, increasing throughout the hemisphere but with practically no U.S. input into

it.

Mr. LowRY. Do you have other suggestions in addition to the arms embargo or sanction? Are there other areas in which this Nation could work that you think might be effective in addition to the arms embargo?

Colonel THOMAS. Well, as a starting point, sir, I would have to go back to the revisions in the lifting of the arms embargoes. The lifting of embargoes does not say that we are going to sell to any country anything that they might conceivably want. It would make it then possible, legal, for the United States to do business with them once again, to establish securities, defense ties, and I think we will be in a far more better position to establish a cooperative relationship. And that would, in fact, make it possible for governments to control such things as this.

Mr. LowRY. Do you believe that cooperative relationship need also exist between the United States and Panama?

Do you believe that is equally important, that we also have a good working relationship, cooperative relationship with Panama? Colonel THOMAS. Sir, I believe it is important that we have a good working relationship with each and every country around the world to the extent possible and certainly to the extent that it serves U.S. interests, no matter how small the country.

Mr. LowRY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HUBBARD. Thank you, Congressman Lowry.
Congressman Dornan?

Mr. DORNAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I also agree with your analysis, Colonel, that the intent is benign and sincere in trying to limit the sale of arms. I have read many books on limiting world arms sales, one almost a century ago called "The Merchant of Death". When I was a young boy, I read “Arsenal of Democracy." It is a dilemma and hard to figure out which countries are worthy of support and which are not.

I would like to get your observations, given the case we are investigating here today, on the illegal smuggling of arms to a group attempting to overthrow a government by violent means and killing, about the timing aspects here.

Have you been aware, with your Latin America background, that this would be taking place during the implementation period of the treaties in the U.S. Congress; that this gun running would be going on?

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Colonel THOMAS. I have been absolutely amazed that they would be so blatant in this type of action, of the particular timing of it, yes, sir.

Mr. DORNAN. One of the things that I will be asking General McAuliffe about, and I would like you to comment on, when you were at the Latin desk for the Air Force, did you also find some confusion in our Pentagon when the Russian Trade Delegations were coming to Panama during the very period that Ambassadors Bunker and Lenowitz were trying to negotiate this treaty?

Was that discussed?

Colonel THOMAS. Not that I recall, sir. I should add at this point that I was not at any time personally involved in the Panama Canal Treaty negotiations or any of the process.

We had one man in the office who worked that job exclusively and I was dealing with other countries of the hemisphere throughout my assignment.

Mr. DORNAN. In your dealings with these other countries, you spent what, 3 years with Nicaragua as an Air Force adviser? Colonel THOMAS. Yes; I did.

Mr. DORNAN. You must have picked up a good feeling for the younger and senior pilots that you were flying with, dealing with. Did you feel that they had an appreciation of some of the aspects of freedom that we cherish but take for granted in this country? Colonel THOMAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DORNAN. Do you think that there is a middle class in Nicaragua, the families of these military men, many of them who were trained here, that are not that enamored with the autocratic rule of Somoza, but certainly would not want to see a Sandinista alternative?

Colonel THOMAS. I do not think there will come a time in the foreseeable future when the members of Nicaragua would take Sandinista as an alternative to the Somoza dictatorship.

Mr. DORNAN. Given its sheer land mass and its population of way over 100 million people now and the natural resources of Brazil, and the fact that they were a good ally, their young men fought bravely and died all over the slopes of Monte Casino and other battlefields of Italy in combatting fascism, do you think this is one of the major tragedies of the last decade?

Colonel THOMAS. It was a great tragedy. When that happened, I also considered it a great tragedy when a former Member of the Congress made the statement here, not in this room, but made the statement that Brazilians had never fought closer than I believe 500 miles to the front during World War II. That simply was not true. It simply was not true. They were our very staunch allies. They sent, as I recall, some 25,000 people to Italy. There were many, many who were killed there. They gave us access to bases in Brazil for flying across the Atlantic narrows to Africa.

There is no way to overstate the damage done to our country to United States-Brazilian relations when that sort of thing happens. Mr. DORNAN. Are there younger Air Force officers-what time period, colonel, were you in Nicaragua as an air adviser?

Colonel THOMAS. I was there from February 1963 to February 1966.

Mr. DORNAN. So some of the pilots you flew with are now in command positions?

Colonel THOMAS. As a matter of fact, there was a young captain in the Nicaraguan Air Force who was the director of finance at that time. I was also a captain when I went down there.

Mr. DORNAN. And you see them as honorable men?

Colonel THOMAS. Yes, sir, that young captain is a full colonel and a commander of the air force. He is an honorable man, without question.

Mr. DORNAN. Thank you.

Mr. HUBBARD. Thank you, Congressman Dornan.
Congressman Hansen?

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to ask you one or two questions. One is why Panama would be so interested in Nicaragua in particular? Even though there is evidence to believe that Sandinista and other related movements are broader than Nicaragua, and perhaps service in El Salvador or what-can you hear me?

Colonel THOMAS. I hear you fine, sir, but I do not believe your mike is working though.

Mr. HANSEN. Anyway, the point I am wishing to make, do you have any, in your experience in Central American affairs, do you have any reason why Cuba, Panama, Costa Rica, why some of these nations might be so interested in Nicaragua in particular?

Cuba, do you think the Bay of Pigs, that it was a staging area for this; that there is really no forgiveness there on the part of Castro? What would be an analysis of why Nicaragua seems to be front and center near the venomous activity of these other activities? Colonel THOMAS. Well, you have already mentioned the fact that Nicaragua was used as a staging area in the Bay of Pigs area. I think it would go back a little further, you would find that the Government of Nicaragua had supported the Government of Cuba in trying to contain Castro before he came to power. That is, they were supporting the Sandinista government. I think those two elements would be a reason to have a longstanding resentment toward the Sandinista government.

Mr. HANSEN. The Somoza government was acting in our interest extensively to do this at the time, so this makes it rather strange to have our supposed friends, Panama and others, fighting against another friend who is very cooperative in a venture that was aborted but, nevertheless, was favorable to the United States? Colonel THOMAS. Yes, sir, it does seem strange.

Mr. HANSEN. Do you find any reason to believe that the governments to the north of Nicaragua are involved in any concerted effort to undercut the Governments of Nicaragua, El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemela, any of those?

Colonel THOMAS. Sir, I have absolutely no reason to believe that any one of those governments is in any way supporting the Sandinista government. I think to the contrary, they have been extremely careful to maintain at a minimum a neutrality.

Mr. HANSEN. Even though there is infiltration out of those countries into Nicaragua which is known?

Colonel THOMAS. Yes, sir.