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by the gentleman from Macomb, (Mr. of Representatives, and then I would practicable for future : Legislatures. MUSSEY,) shows the necessity of such leave the Senate at liberty to propose From the manner in which we elect an amendment, because from his ex- amendments to those bills.
members of the Legislature, I cannot perience in legislative matters he is Mr. BLACKMAN. Would it not be see why one House should have the entitled to speak upon the subject. I necessary to insert à provision to that preference over the other in originating hope, therefore, that his amendment effect so that there may be no doubt in bills of this description. I think it is will prevail.
regard to the power of the Senate to just as proper for bills appropriating Mr. BLACKMAN. I would like to make those amendments ?
money to be originated in the Senate inquire of the gentleman from Macomb Mr. MUSSEY. In my judgment as in the House. Senators are just whether he would have it so that the such a provision would not be necessary about as near the people as members Senate may propose amendments to I propose to have the section provide of the House of Representatives. I these bills? I see in a similar provision that bills for the appropriation of pub- believe that ever since we had a Legisin the Constitution of the United lic moneys shall originate in the House lature the practice has been in regard States, in regard to raising revenue, of Representatives. That is all that to appropriations to allow bills to that the Senate is given power to pro- the section will provide upon the sub- originate in either House. I see no pose amendments. The clause to which ject.
objection to it. I know of no difficulty I refer is as follows:
Mr. BLACKMAN. The idea sug- that has occurred that would be ob"All bills for raising revenue shall origin- gested itself to my mind from the fact viated by a change in this regard.. ate in the House of Representatives; but the that the framers of the Constitution of The question was then taken upon Senate may propose or concur, with amendments, as on other bills."
the United States seemed to think it the amendment of Mr. MUSSEY, and it is Now, if it was deemed necessary to necessary to add such a provision in was not agreed to...: make this provision in the Constitution regard to the power of amendments Mr. P. D. WARNER. I move to. of the United States, in connection by the Senate to a similar provision amend this section by inserting after with the other provision, lest it might in relation to the origination of bills the words "new bill the words be doubted whether the Senate could in the House of Representatives, Idolcept appropriation bills;" so that it will offer an amendment to such bills, do not know that the Senate would not read: “but no new bill except approwe not need the same precaution here? have the power without such & pro- priation bills shall be introduced after
Mr. MUSSEY. I will answer the vision. But the question might very the first forty days of a session shall gentleman. I would of course leave the naturally arise, whether the amending have expired." I offer this amendment Senate to propose such amendments a bill, so as to increase the amount without consultation with other mem
deem best: otherwise. I appropriated, would not in effect bebers of the committee. My object is it would be a mere formal matter to equivalent to originating a new bill for this: there have occasionally been insubmit such bills to the consideration that increased amount. I suppose that conveniences experienced under the of the Senate. I do not offer this is the reason why this provision was operation of the fifty day limitation in amendment 80 much because I inserted in the Constitution of the
OI the our present Constitution. It has been object to the origination of such United States. :
necessary at times to resort to expedisuch bills in the Senate; but I Mr. HENDERSON. In the old
ents in order to secure the passage of nhiont to their originating in both Constitution we had a provision which I such appropriation bills as the neces-.
he same time. I do not has been read here, that bilis might sities of the case seemed to reguire. I like very well to talk about my own originate in either House. The qués-can SAA no
originate in either House. The ques- can see no objection to allowing the nariancas but. T have seen how this Ition has never been raised that the committee of ways and means of the
House in which the bills did not origin- House, and the committee of finance when a committee who have charge of ate had not a perfect right to make in the Senate to confer together when
such a bill come to the conclusion that amendments to those bills; nor would the Legislature has nearly completed j they will appropriate a certain amount the question arise here.
lits session, and to report such
its session, and to report such approof money in the one House, a similar Mr. BLACKMAN. The gentleman priation bills as may be necessary after committee is considering the same bill does not "evidently understand the the limitation has expired. in the other House, and they also rec-| point I make. The point was that the question was taken upon the ommend the appropriation of a cer- under a Constituțion which did not l amendment of Mr. P. D. WARNER, and tain amount of money. It seems to provide that a particular class of bills it was agreed to me that some mode should be devised should originate only in one House, Mr BLACKMAN I move that the to provide for these matters being con- either House had the right to make
committee now rise, report progress, sidered in some other way, so that but amendments. But it is proposed here one appropriation for one object will to make a provision restricting the
and ask leave to sit again. be recommended, and that we shall be origination of certain bills to one
"The motion was agreed to, upon a able to get along much more satisfac- House.
division; ayes 32, noes 27. torily to all concerned than we now do. Mr. M. C. WATKINS. I cannot. The committee accordingly rose; and At present, appliances are used to secure see any appropriateness in the amend- the PRESIDENT having resumed the appropriations for one object; after ment offered by the gentleman from chair, .. qur sympathies have been wrought up Macomb, (Mr. MUSSEY.) His idea Mr. PRINGLE reported that the in that direction, appliances are seems to be that, in the first place, the committee of the whole, pursuant to brought to bear to secure appropria- sums should be fixed upon which the the order of the Convention, had had tions for another object, and our sym- Legislature máy deem it necessary or under consideration the article entitled pathies are turned in another direc- proper to appropriate, and then that “Legislative Department," had made tion, and thus we may find at last, that sum should be divided up among the some progress therein, and had direcwe have appropriated four hundred several different objects for which ap- ted him to ask leave for the committee thousand dollars, when we should have propriations should be made. I do not to sit again. appropriated only three hundred thou- understand that this has been the Leave was accordingly granted. ; . sand dollars. I would have the bills course of former Legislatures, and I Mr. MORTON. I move that the for this purpose originate in the House doubt very much whether it would be Convention now adjourn,
of certain "estricting the line me now tide,
find at last, that proper to appropriate, in accessary or under dens
every principle of republicanism, and revolution more direful in its conse- but the duty, of every man to lábor every principle of democracy, I claim quences than that which has just passed to save life. So, if we Organize a govto be more of a Republican than are There being considerable conversa- ernment upon the principle that peace.
shall predominate and prevail, we shall than are Democrats. The Republicans The CHAIRMAN said: The com- exercise our functions to the saving of hayo pretty generally responded to this mittee will preserve order.
life, to the saving of blood, and to the idea, that two-thirds should be required Mr. BURTOH. Thank you, Mr. saving of the nation. Let us be wise, under peculiar circumstances to pass a Chairman; order is Heaven's first law. let us be prudent in this day, while the law; so it has been with the Democrats. Mr. GIDDINGS. It is evident that people have power in their hands to Now, just so far as we go beyond the we have not adopted that rule here. save the country.
O majority, just so far do we go for the Mr. BURTCH. I was going on to The CHAIRMAN Will the bentle one man rule, and the one man idea of say that there would then be war; not man from Eaton so direct his remarks government.
... a war between races, but a war between that the committee may see their apThe public good is of the first impor- the masses and the classes. Sir, if plication to the question ? The chair tance. After you have secured the this thing is allowed to go on without is not able to see it rights of persons and of property, so remonstrance, I tell you that it is as
1 Mr. BURTCH. Perhaps the Chair far as they should be secured in the sure in the future, as the future is sure fundamental law, the public welfare to come. While the classes are now
is not able to see it, or the committee should be paramount. We have seen educated through cúnning and craft
either. Some have ears to hear and in the storm that has just passed over to weave their web so that they may
leyes to see, and yet do not do either. us, these clouds growing darker, until live without labor, the masses are also buy may say, as lark
But, I may say, as dark as my remarks alarm and consternation overshadowed leducated to some extent. They will may appear to gentlemen here, there is the whole land. And these fearful áp- see what is for their interest, but not
mint force in them, and when a more enprehensions have not been without ef- perhaps until the iron bonds have been
lightened humanity lives, they will see fect in the Congress of the United riveted upon them to such an extent
it. Because I do not speak with the States. Under the pressure of the that no merely political action of their's
e same cool indifference that others do, times, men have been driven out of the will unloosen the bonds.
it may be considered that I am deCongress of the nation, for the purpose Mr. VAN VALKENBURGH. I
ranged; and, gentlemen, I may be of securing for one side a two-thirds would inquire of the Chair what is the sadly deranged.
! majority, perhaps, when there would question before the committee ?
The CHAIRMAN. The remark of have been no cause of alarm provi- The CHAIRMAN. The question is the Chair was directed, not to the charded there had been no veto power upon the amendment of the gentleman acter of the remarks of the gentleman, in connection with the national govern- from Eaton, (Mr. BURTCH,) to strike but to their applicability to the quesment. In that case a majority could out the word "two-thirds," and inserttion before the committee. The queshave controlled without any difficulty. the words "a majority."
tion before the committee is upon a Now, a political faction may take pos-1, Mr. BURTOH. Then would come certain amendment.. session of the executive of the nation, what? If political action should fail Mr. BURTCH. Exactly! and whát and through its influence, that politi- to produce the results desired, then is that amendment? It is that one cal faction may control the power of what would come? Sir, it would be a man shall not have the power to conthe government, to the disparagement war; a war between the masses and trol the majority of the Legislature. of the best interests of the people the classes. And whether it be repub-. I understand the thing, I think. I
The veto power has crippled the en- lican or whether it be democratic, it think that gentlemen, if they will look ergies of the State of Michigan, when matters not. We find this to be true to this matter, will see that the drift of it was exercised in Congress, against all the world over, that governments my argument is, that one man shall the appropriations to be made and ex- are universally in the hands of the not take control of many men. I pended in Michigan; and by means of classes, and out of the possession of say that when a majority have secured a faction, those appropriations were the masses. Now, sir, what will we the personal rights of men and their used in the South, for the benefit of find under the circumstances? We will rights of property, as they should be the South, and for the disparagement find that one of these parties being in secured in the fundamental law of any of the North. The same thing may power, being in possession of the gov-State, then it should be left to majoriapply to State government as well. Ternment, being in possession of all the ties to control so far as the interests of But not only that, I see all around me, fortifications, of the army, of the navy, the State are concerned. What would that there is a strong tendency to class. being in possession of the sword, and you think of a school district where When I use the term “class," I speak the treasury of the government, there one-third would get control of twoof those men who have never labored will be a terrible war. It will be just thirds ? What would you think of or toiled, except by the brain in work-like all other wars, except the last one, such powers in a school district? How ing out means to rob the masses; we a war against tyranny and oppression. far advanced would the educational inhave seen a little of it in this govern- The last war we had was a war for the terests of the State of Michigan be, if ment, when under the pretence, that it purpose of oppression, unlike anything that rule was in operation in our school was necessary for certain purposes, the heard of before in the history of the districts? I apprehend they would be riches of the classes of this country world.
as far in the back-ground as many of have been exempted from taxes upon Now, sir, I hope that when we go those eastern cities which have been their capital, both in the State and in away from this hall we shall have quoted here as good authority in conthe nation. If this was the only in- adopted a system that will be adapted stitutional law. Rhode Island has . stance that would occur, perhaps we to the true interests of the people; one been quoted here as good authority, might survive. But if these things are that will secure them against faction, yet that State neglected to adopt reto be constantly on the increase, and a bribery, and corruption; one that will publican principles in her institutions, distinction is to be drawn between the be an honor to the virtue and intelli- but kept the charter it received from moneyed institutions of the country gence of the great State of Michigan. King James until a révolution broke and the masses, I see before us a It is the right, and not only the right out in the State. That may be good
authority for some gentlemen, but such in the same manner. Under the rule bill over the Governor's veto. The authority as that is no authority for me. as laid down in this section, there will amendment of the gentleman from
I say that all that is necessary here be required sixty-seven members of the Clinton, (Mr. DANIELLS,) as stated by in regard to this veto power is, that House of Representatives to pass the the gentleman from Macomb, (Mr. after a veto message has been spread bill over the Governor's veto. If my MUSSEY,) would not require that numupon the journal, and presented to the amendment is adopted, a bill can be so ber; it would leave it so that a much understanding of the members of the passed by two-thirds of the members less number than a majority of the Legislature, then the majority of that present, which is the rule, I think, in members elected could pass a bill over Legislature should control. Sir, is the the State of New York, and also in the the Governor's veto. knowledge of one man superior to the Congress of the United States. | Mr. GIDDINGS. I do not propose knowledge of fifty men ? Because au Mr. MUSSEY. I cannot very well to make any argument on this quesman has been elected Governor, is sit quiet, if there is any probability tion. But there arises a difficulty in there any more concentrated wisdom that that amendment will pass? It my mind about passing this section in him than there was before he was will take but a moment's reflection to just as it stands. I suppose the House elected Governor? Not a bit of it. see that it will require a less number of Representatives is generally like
He might improve a little if he of votes to pass a bill over a veto than this body, without a full number of looked around him, and he might not; it would require to pass the bill in the members being present; seldom will he might go the other way; he might first place. Suppose the House of there be more than eighty members fall back. Suffice it to say, that I ap- Representatives, was as full as the Con- present. In order to pass a bill over prehend you will find in Congress, men vention is to-day. It would take fifty- the Governor's veto, according to this who, it will be acknowledged, at least by one votes to pass a bill before it could section as it now stands, it would take my Republican friends, to be equal in go to the Governor at all. Then when almost that number of votes. It strikes capacity to the President; yet the it came back with his veto, if there me that members here must see that it President can thwart the will of a were but a quorum of members pres- is worthy of consideration at least, majority of the members in either ent, or if there were sixty-one mem- whether the number required to pass a House. I apprehend that after you bers, as we have here to-day, forty-two bill over the Governor's veto, accordhave elected a Governor in the State votes could pass the bill over his veto ing to this section, that is, two-thirds of Michigan, you then have not se- according to this amendment. Now, of all the members elected, is not too cured all the concentrated wisdom of if the Convention wish to place the large a number. I am not certain but Michigan. Now, after the Governor matter in that position, then I think that is best. But I just make the sughas spread out at large his objections they should go back and strike out the gestion that the matter is worthy of to any bill, the people of the great words, “a majority of members elect- our consideration, especially when we State of Michigan, convened in the ed,” which is the number required to find that in some States there is no legislative hall, certainly have wisdom pass the bill in the first place.
such power granted to the Governor. enough to understand whether the best Mr. DANIELLS. A majority of the I think we shonld not pass over this interests of the peoole and of the State States of the Union do not require matter hastily or without considerable of Michigan, would be carried out by two-thirds of the members elected to consideration passing the bill. :::
.: pass a bill over the Governor's veto. Mr. MUSSEY. Are there many Now, I will refer you to one State in I do not think that more than one- States which require only a majority of ::: the Union whose Constitution was like third of the States now in the Union, the number present to pass bills? If.. what this would be provided my require a two-thirds vote to pass a bill so, then there might be some consistenamendment is adopted. That State over the Governor's veto. In many cy in requiring only that number to does not now stand in very good favor; States the Governor has no veto at all. pass them over the Governor's veto. though you know that persons are In Delaware the Governor is required Mr. GIDDINGS. I do not see how liable to fall from grace, and so it is to sign a bill, no matter whether he that affects this question one way or , with States. I refer you to the State approves it or not. :
the other. I suppose the general rule: of Kentucky. That had a like Consti- Mr. TURNER. And in Maryland. is to require a law to be passed by the tution to what this would be, provided Mr. DANIELLS. I do not know majority; I have never been quite certhat this amendment was made. I but what it is so in Maryland. The tain about that. Some one suggested think it was a good one. I think it veto is generally considered, in the to me yesterday, that while the originwould be surer in many respects to practice of various States in the Union, al law might be passed by a majority; promote the general welfare. Now, an anti-democratic power. If you re- of the members elected, that it would with these few remarks, I submit the quire two-thirds of the members elected be better not to allow that law to be matter to the consideration of the com- to pass a bill over the veto of the Gov- amended or changed except by a twomittee.
ernor, I question if you can ever pass thirds vote. I am not certain that he The question was taken upon the any law over a Gevernor's veto. Our was not correct. But the question : amendment of Mr. BURTCH, and it was Governor would then have a one man arises whether this section does not renot agreed to.
power. If the committee want to quire too great a number to pass the Mr. DANIELLS. I move to amend insert that, then they can do so. But bill over the Governor's veto. .. the third sentence of this section by I think they will see the time, or our con- Mr. MUSSEY. That is as much as striking out, after the word “mem- stituents will, when such a question as to say that the position I took was inbers," the word “elected," and in- this will not pass by unheeded. . consistent. I merely asked the Conserting the word “present." If that Mr. BLACKMAN. We just voted vention to be consistent. If we were amendment is adopted, the sentence down a proposition of the gentleman to strike out the clause requiring a will read, “on such reconsideration, if from Eaton, (Mr. BURTCH,) which did majority of the members elected to two-thirds of the members present not receive a single vote in its favor. pass a bill in the first place, then it agree to pass the bill, it shall be sent, I think we would have done better to might be consistent to have but twowith the objections, to the other House, adopt that than the motion now made, thirds of those voting to pass a bill over by which it shall be considered.” Il because it proposed to require a ma- the Governor's veto. If we should de- * move also to amend the next sentence jority of the members elected to pass acide that, in a House of fifty-one mem
r pass a bill come
doengo you kerom grace, to the s
of thonor's te whaterornit to have this time tha
bers, twenty-six should be enough to gentleman from Clinton, (Mr. DAN- State of New York, an absurdity? I pass à law, that might be another IELLS,) I think it would be much more do not know but there are other States thing. But when we say it shall re- acceptable and appropriate to strike that require two-thirds of the members quire fifty-one, that is, the entire num- out all that relates to the veto power; elected to pass a bill over the Gov. ber necessary to constitute a quorum, because the amendment would be re- ernor's veto; but there are very few, if to pass a law in the first place, then I ducing the influence of the Governor any. think it would be inconsistent to allow below what it would be if he possessed Mr. MUSSEY. Does it require a thirty-six of that number to pass the no veto power at all. As has been re- majority of the members elected to law over the Governor's veto. Accord- marked, by the Constitution the votes Congress to pass a law? ing to the amendment now proposed of fifty-ono members of the House are Mr. DANIELLS. No, şir; and that it would require fifty-one votes to get required to pass a bill in the first place. shows me the more necessity for adopta bill to the Governor, and then if it should this amendment be adopted, ing the amendment which I have procomes back with his objections, thirty- thirty-four members could pass that posed. If a majority of the members six could pass it over his veto.
same bill when returned by the Gover- elected approve å bill, that to me is 1. Mr. MORTON. Thirty-four could nor with his objections. I submit that pretty good evidence that it is a billig
do it; for thirty-four would be two- it would be preferable to my mind, and which the public good requires. Then thirds of fifty-one. ..
more in accordance with my views of after the Governor has vetoed it, and Mr. MUSSEY. Yes, sir thirty-four propriety, to strike out everything in sent his reasons for that veto to the could pass it over the Governor's veto, relation to the veto power, than to House in which the bill originated, if but it would require fifty-one to send adopt an amendment of this character. | two-thirds of the members present. the bill to the Governor in the first Mr. DANIELLS. Mr. Chairman, shall still think it is a proper law, I place. .
you will see that the comparison gen- think it is right they should have power Mr. TURNER. Is not that accord- tlemen make, is an extreme one in to make it a law, and be responsible to ing to the Constitution of New York? every instance. A bill may be passed the people for their action. ..Mr. MUSSEY. Yes, sir; but as I by thirty-four votes if there is barely a Mr. CONGER. I wish to make a said a short time ago, precedents are quorum. But it is not a common remark or two upon this subjects The good precedents if they are good in thing that there is barely a quorum provision in this section is the same as themselves. Now, if you will allow a present. My amendment provides the provision in the present Constitu- : majority to pass a bill, then it might be that the bill may be passed over the tion. Under the Constitution of 1835, well enough to require only two-thirds Governor's veto by two-thirds of the there was a provision like the one proof those voting to pass it over the members present. Under the other posed in this amendment: Governor's veto; that would be con- rule, if the House of Representatives "If, after such reconsideration, two-thirds .. sistent. But whatever the Convention should have present at any time the w
no time thal of all the members present agree to pass the
holt hasonoith the chienons will decide I will submit to. I cannot, same number of members that are now the other House, by whom it shall likewise
| bill, it shall be sent, with the objections, to however, very well vote to have thirty- in this Convention, if every one of be reconsidered; and if approved also by four members pass a bill over the them should vote in favor of two-thirds of all the members present in that Governor's veto, and require fifty-one a bill over the Governor's veto,
House, it shall become a law." to send a bill to the Governor in the it could not be passed. Now, Il The pending amendment would make first place. .
suppose that the most of us profess to our Constitution conform with the ConMr. GIDDINGS. I had supposed I believe in a democratic form of govern-stitution of 1835. I do not remember,
ition when if I ever knew, what reasons induced consistency, we have been inconsistent I first came to this Convention; but the Convention of 1850 to change that so many times. What does our pres- my faith in that has been wonderfully rule; but undoubtedly some reason ent Constitution require ?
shaken. I do not believe a more con-existed which made it seem better that. Mr. MUSSEY. - It requires a ma-servative body has ever been assembled that rule should be changed, and that ...rity of all the members elected to in this State; that is they conserve the votes of two-thirds of all the mom
ass a bill, and two-thirds of all the backwards. It seems to me that there l bers elected, instead of those present, members elected to pass it over the has been no power vested in any thing should be required to pass a bill over Governor's veto. I do not advocate which comes near to the people, except the Governor s veto..
except the Governor's veto. that rule; all I ask is, that we shall be in the board of supervisors. We have Mr. MCCLELLAND. Will the genconsistent.
the utmost confidence in the board of tleman allow me to state the reason for Mr. DANIELLS. I would ask if, supervisors, but we have no confidence that? during the last seventeen years, there in anything else. It is proposed to Mr. CONGER. Yes, sir! has ever been a law passed over the vest the Governor with a power which Mr. MCCLELLAND. That change Governor's veto?
would give him practically a negative was made because, in many cases, a Mr. MUSSEY. Yes, sir; within the upon every bill that could be passed minority of each House passed bills last seventeen months; I am sorry the by the Legislature. Now, you might over the head of the Governor; actually gentleman's memory is so much at fault. have executives in this State who a minority of the members of each
Mr. DANIELLS. I might have would have notions that would not House, according to the number elected. known it at the time, but if so, I have comport with the wishes of the people, Mr. : CONGER. That of course forgotten it. But I might not have as expressed through their representa- would be the effect of the amendment, known it at all, and so might not have tives. Yet it would be in his power to if adopted. We can very well see that forgotten it.
prevent the passage of any bill that such might be the case. But what I Mr. MUSSEY. I think if it had not should be presented to him by any referred to more particularly was, been for the excitement produced by Legislature hereafter convened in this whether there were any special cases the numerous vetoes of the Governor city. Sir, this is a most extraordinary which made such a rule improper. I: last winter, this question would not power: Gentlemen talk about my have no doubt but that there are many have been agitated here at all. : proposition being an absurdity. Is the gentlemen in this Convention who
Mr. P. D. WARNER. If it is pro- practice in the Congress of the United think that after a bill has been vetoed posed to adopt the amendment of the States, or in the Legislature of the by the Governor, and his objections
18 a bill, and two-thirds of all the backwards. It seen
this stated what House, accordement
ELS. I mich at faults by the Leroy bili Phactically
That non diment