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I hold that in the end, after a judge has worn out his life in mental study, with his physical constitution wasted away, when he is going down to the grave, he should have something to leave for the support of his family. I am willing, as a small taxpayer in this State, to give the circuit judge three thousand dollars a year.

Mr. DANIELLS. I am a farmer,

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Mr. DANIELLS. I misunderstood

on salaries as we can get them. I It will amount to at least a thousand ard of prices for everything now was
hope the amendment of the gentleman dollars a year. The traveling expenses higher than it had been, and that the
from Kent, (Mr. FERRIS,) will not pre- of a judge will be another thousand salaries of the judges should be in-
vail.
dollars. And then there is all the time creased for that reason. It was said
Mr. FERRIS. The importance of he spends in court, and out of court, that the prices of everything now
my amendment is conceded by all. I too, in preparing his decisions for the were way beyond the prices of four or
ask that the question upon it may be benefit of the people of the State, of five years ago; yet the reverse is the
taken by yeas and nays.
all classes, farmers, mechanics, profes- fact.
Mr. MILLER. I hope the amend-sional men, and all. I hold that he
ment will prevail. I hardly think it is should be fully paid for all that. I the gentleman from Branch,' (Mr.
proper for us to inquire into the price hold that as a farmer when I pay good LUCE.) I understood from his argu-
of pork, potatoes or broadcloth, in set- prices for labor, I get better profits ment that in Branch county they hired
tling this question of salaries. You go than I do to jew the laboring man their judges to raise wool and pork,
Mr. COOLIDGE. I am unwilling
to an individual, who by his profession down.
is earning five, six, seven or eight thou-
that this question should be argued in
sand dollars a year, and ask him to
this way; it is not fair. We have been
take a seat upon the bench of your cir-
told for a long number of hours that
cuit court. You do not propose to
we should pay a circuit judge in pro-
him that he shall be satisfied with what
portion to his services. We have been
simply constitutes a living. You want
told how much his services are worth.
his services; you want his talents.
And then we have been told in words
When he consents that you shall have
that moved our pity and commisera-
his services and his talents, you would
tion that some of these judges have
feel ashamed of yourselves if you were
been made poor. We were told by the
to ask him simply to estimate how and not a lawyer. I suppose that in gentleman from St. Clair, (Mr. CONGER,)
much he can live upon. He goes as a that respect I am something similar to that one of them was obliged to resign
judge upon your bench, with all the the gentleman from Branch, (Mr. his place, in order to save the little
prestige connected with his name and LUCE.) But he and I come to very pittance of property he had on hand.
standing in his profession, and you ask different conclusions in regard to this That was to influence our votes, I sup-
him to go there for a salary that shall matter; that is, if I understand the pose.
indicate as clearly as anything can, subject aright.
And when a member gives the
what you regard his services are worth. Do we hire a judge to raise pork, statistics and prices of provisions,
I should not have said a word on and wheat, and peas, and wool? If we showing that a man may live now
this subject, did it not seem to me do, then the prices of those articles upon a great deal less amount than he
that we are not doing as we should, should govern the price we should pay could a year or two ago, and that the
when we show so much regard for the a judge. But if we are to hire à judge probability is that prices will decrease,
alimentary part of this question; we to insure us law, and justice, and and a man will be able to live hereafter
should go higher. While these judges equity, then the prices we can get the upon a less amount than he can now,
have so much service to perform, best of those articles for is what we gentlemen get up here and say,
while so much talent is required of should look to. I do not suppose the "What has pork, and beef, and beans,
them, if they earn so much by their high or low price of wool has anything and wool to do with this question ?"
profession, we should certainly treat to do with the abilities of a judge; I do Yet they have predicated their strong-
them with consideration in the salaries not suppose we hire a judge for any est argument upon just such things;
which we offer them.
such purpose. I did not hear the gen- that is the only consideration that has
Mr. SHEARER. I go for this tleman from Branch (Mr. LUCE,) say borne heavily upon their minds, that
amendment from the fact that in my anything about oats; yet the price of these judges cannot live upon their
estimation three thousand dollars a oats may have some effect on his sal- salaries, that they become poor, that
year is none too much. I am a farm-ary, if he travels much. We want to it requires a self-sacrificing spirit to
er; I believe there are thousands of get the best ability we can to insure hold the position of judge. And yet
farmers in this State who, if they were equity and justice, and correct adjudi- when it is demonstrated that, owing to
capable, would not leave their farms cation of the laws, for the benefit of the falling off of prices, they can live
and take this place for three thousand the people. For that purpose I think
dollars a year. Let the judge com- we should pay pretty good salaries.
mence from his youth to study legal I have been in the habit of hiring
lore; let him devote his best time and labor all my lifetime, ever since I have
energies and mind, to the detriment of been in business. It has always been
his physical constitution; let him es- said by my neighbors that I have paid Now, I am not acquainted with the
tablish himself as a lawyer, and let the highest prices. But that has been amount of time which either of the
him acquire that ability which is neces- my habit; pay liberal salaries, and gentlemen holding seats upon this
sars for the position of a judge, and demand good and prompt service. I floor, and who occupy positions as
then serve his time on the bench, and was always opposed in my business to circuit judges, devote to their duties.
it looks wrong in the end to deprive hiring boys, and if I was going to hire Therefore the remarks which I made
him of this mere pittance for perform-a man to act as judge, I should not yesterday can have no reference to
ing faithfully his duties as a judge. want to hire a second-class man. I them; nor will what I now say have
I hold that so far as the price of believe the people of the State are any reference in the world to them. I
provisions are concerned, it is merely willing and anxious to pay such a sum stated yesterday what I supposed then
nominal. Although when we come to as will secure the best talent attainable. I knew, and what I aver now I do
estimate that, I will ask what is the Mr. LUCE. The only reason I know; that the circuit judges in many
rent of a house and all that is necessary looked at the price of anything was of the circuits in this State, do not have
to make it comfortable for a family? because it was claimed that the stand- to devote to their official duties the

upon less-than they could two or three
years ago, gentlemen cry out, "What
have oats and corn to do with this
question ?" I do not know where gen-
tlemen are running on this subject.

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Mr. NORRIS. How will it be under the new arrangement?

whole of their time, nor to exceed one-visions of the article on the judicial bar, county officers, and every person half of their time. And, therefore, department the duties of circuit judges that I know of, whose attention has when gentlemen tell us that the judges are to be increased hereafter, by the been called to this subject, and it has upon the circuit have to devote their diminution of the number of circuits? been a subject considerably agitated entire timeMr. COOLIDGE. I understand that. during the last few years,—are in favor Mr. CONGER. Then I ask the gen- of increasing the salaries of circuit tleman if in his circuit there happens judges. They expect that the deleto be less duties to be performed now, gates in this Convention from that will not there be a necessary increase county will vote for increase of salaries. of duties under the new arrangement? I should be very sorry to go back Mr. COOLIDGE. I understand that, home, and be obliged to give as an excuse for refusing to increase the salaries of circuit judge, that pork had fallen, or that any article of commerce was cheaper.

Mr. COOLIDGE. I cannot say. Mr. NORRIS. Therefore the argument of the gentleman is not applica

ble.

Mr. COOLIDGE. I am telling gentlemen what has been, not what is going to be. A dozen gentlemen have said that my statements about circuits have not been sustained by what they know about other circuits.

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also.

Mr. CONGER. The gentleman speaks of the present duties as if they were to be the rule hereafter. I ask the gentleman, with his close logic, whether that is a fair deduction, when we have already provided for additional duties?

I believe it is the duty as well as the interest of the people of this State to I think that for the last two or three pay their public officers a fair and libyears, the salary of fifteen hundred eral compensation. I am not in favor dollars a year has been too little. I Mr. COOLIDGE. There are two of paying the circuit judge, or any other think the amount proposed by the other things, perhaps three, to be con- officer, a high salary, even that he committee on salaries, twenty-five hun-sidered. It has now become, under an should have something to live on in dred dollars a year, is enough as a act of the Legislature, the habit of his old age. I want to pay him a fair general rule. There are some circuits circuit judges to send to referees a compensation, that he may devote the undoubtedly, where I am bound to great deal of business, which was not the whole of his time to the business suppose a greater sum should be paid; formerly done; that relieves the cir- of his office, and not have his attention hence, I would be in favor of some cuit judges very much., Another distracted by being obliged to resort amendment. thing, it is proposed in this Constitu- to other means to support himself and But there is another thing; I am not tion that a circuit judge may appoint his family; that he may be indepenprepared to say that the people of this a person to do a great deal that he State will enter into such views as have has to do himself now. I suppose no been advocated upon this floor. If there gentleman who advocated that propois anything upon which the people sition did it with any other view than of this State will look with some cau- that there were important duties which tion, it will be upon salaries; and when would be performed by the person so they have been doubled, and more than appointed by the circuit courts. I believe the circuit judges should double, I think we have gone far Another thing, I apprehend that there be paid as much as, if not more than, enough. And I will not vote to pay will be an intermediate court between the judges of the Supreme Court. It the circuit judges more than twenty-the justice of the peace and the circuit is a well known fact that our circuit five hundred dollars a year, when if I court. As I understand the views of judges, going from county to county, did so I should believe the people at most men upon this floor, they expect large would not favor it. that will be done; I do.

I have heard nothing here to change my views on this subject. While I am willing to pay a proper salary to these officers, I must determine that matter with reference to what I believe to be the popular opinion upon the subject. While I can support what has been reported by the committee on salaries, I do not wish to go beyond that.

dent, and feel that the duties of his office require his whole time, and that in giving his attention to the duties of his office he is receiving a salary sufficient for his support, and the support of his family.

and holding in many counties two, three and four terms a year, in none Mr. HOWARD. I am very much in less than two, must devote their whole favor of the proposition to increase the time and attention to the discharge of salary of the circuit judges to three their duties. On the other hand, the thousand dollars a year. I believe that judges of the Supreme Court, many of a man who is competent to discharge them, find time to devote to other purthe duties of circuit judge, and does suits; several of them are professors in discharge those duties, earns that the State University. For that service amount of money. The fact that the I believe they receive a compensation circuit judge devotes, or should de- equal to the salary of a circuit judge vote, the greater part of his time to at the present time. I may be misthe discharge of those duties, furnishes taken in that; if I am, I would thank to my mind a sufficient argument for some gentleman to correct me. this increase of salary.

When it is proposed here by half a dozen gentlemen that we should pay the circuit judges three thousand dollars a year, and that their services Mr. NORRIS. They receive a thouwere worth three thousand five hun- It is true that a circuit judge is not sand dollars a year for that service. dred dollars, I supposed at the time employed all the time in holding terms Mr. HOWARD. There is no circuit there was a little shrewdness about the of court. But it is well known to judge in this State who can find time proposition. If a man wants to get a members of the profession that very to devote to the discharge of any other hundred and fifty dollars for a horse, much of the service he is called upon to duty. In the larger circuits they he is pretty sure to ask two hundred or perform, is performed in vacation. He hardly have time to prepare themtwo hundred and fifty dollars, so as to has to keep himself posted; he has to selves for the proper dischargé of be able to fall a little. And I supposed read, to look up cases. It is necessary, their official duties. It requires assidthat when gentlemen talked about three for the faithful and intelligent dis-uous labor from one year's end to the thousand dollars, and thirty-five hun- charge of his duties, that he should other to enable them to accomplish dred dollars, they were afraid the Con- employ the greater part of his time in that. I believe that the duties pervention might not be willing to come preparing himself, in rendering him- formed by a circuit judge, when looked up to twenty-five hundred dollars. self competent for the faithful dis- at in, the light of experience, will satcharge of those duties. isfy any individual, whether he be My constituents, members of the lawyer or farmer, that those duties are

Mr. CONGER. Does not the gentleman understand that by the pro

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more onerous than those devolved upon the judges of the Supreme Court, and they are very important.

this question this forenoon, before we certain judicial statistics from the varitake a recess. I am confident that the ous counties of the State. Nearly all mind of every man is made up, one the counties have responded; and A lawyer, who is in successful prac- way or the other, and that no matter from the statistics thus received there tice in this State, will make on the how many speeches are made upon has been prepared a table which is quite average five thousand dollars a year. this subject, they will not change a valuable to us for the facts which it I hope we will have a contains. No response, however, has been received from four counties of the Lower Peninsula which are within but a day's travel; and as the statistics from those counties are desirable to complete the table which has been prepared, I desire to offer the following resolution:

No one would think of taking a lawyer who was not able to earn that amount of money in his practice, and making a circuit judge of him. Still gentlemen of the Convention here are asking such lawyers to abandon their practice, to go upon the bench and assume these additional and increased responsibilities for less than half, or about half, that a good lawyer can earn by his profession.

It requires some time for a person by the practice of his profession to qualify himself for the discharge of the duties of a judge. Every judge must be a lawyer; every judge should be a good lawyer. We must take these things as they are. We should fix a salary here which would secure for the people good talent; which would secure for each circuit in the State a good judge, who can give his whole time and attention to the duties of his office.

single vote.

vote before the recess.

Mr. HENDERSON. I call for the previous question upon the pending amendment.

The previous question was seconded, and the main question ordered.

The PRESIDENT. The question is upon the amendment of the gentleman from Kent, (Mr. FERRIS,) to increase the salaries of circuit judges from twenty-five hundred dollars a year, as reported by the committee on salaries, to three thousand dollars a year. Upon this question the yeas and nays have been asked.

The yeas and nays were ordered.* The question was taken, and the amendment was agreed to; yeas 41, nays 32, as follows:

ed to notify the clerk of the counties of Kal-
Resolved, That the Secretary be instruct-
amazoo, Monroe, Eaton and Oakland, that
statistics requested of those counties, with
the Convention is waiting for the judicial
others, some weeks since; and that the re-
turns received be published in the journal.
The PRESIDENT.
If there is no
objection, the resolution will be enter-
tained.

•No objection was made.

Mr. NORRIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. TURNER. I would like to inquire whether the design of this resoYEAS-Messrs. Barber, Bills, Blackman, lution is that the returns already reChapin, Chapman, Conger, Crocker, Dan-ceived be published now. Howard, Huston, Lawrence, Leach, Longyear, iells, Desnoyers, Divine, Ferris, Giddings, Holt, Lovell, McClelland, McConnell, McKernan, Miles, Miller, Norris, Purcell, Rafter, Rich- the returns from Genesee county will Mr. TURNER. I hope then that Sutherland, Turner, Utley, Van Valkenburgh, be excepted. I know that in those remond, Shearer, T. G. Smith, Stoughton, P. D. Warner, White, Winsor, Withey, Wil- turns there is a very material error. liams and Woodhouse-41. If the resolution be modified so as to county shall not be published until provide that the returns from that corrected, I shall have no objection to the proposition.

NAYS-Messrs. Aldrich, Alexander, Andrus,
Elliott, Farmer, Germain, Hazen, Henderson,
Brown, Case, Coolidge, Duncan, Duncombe,
Holmes, Kenney, Lamb, Luce, Morton, Mur-
don, Stockwell, Thompson, Walker, M. C.
ray, Mussey, Musgrave, Ninde, Sawyer, Shel-
Watkins, Willard, Winans, Yeomans and the
President-32.

I would be in favor of the proposition to allow the board of supervisors to pay the judge an additional compensation, if I thought the mem bers of this Convention would not increase his salary to three thousand dollars a year. I know that in my own county our judge has very frequently appointed spectal terms of court, at the solicitation of members of the bar, and the prosecuting attorney, in order to save the county the expense Convention now take a recess. of keeping, prisoners in the jail, and The motion was agreed to; and acthe inconvenience attendant upon keep-cordingly, (at half-past twelve o'clock ing prisoners from one regular term to p. m.,) the Convention took a recess the other. I know he has frequently until half-past two o'clock p. m.

come there and held special terms of court; the case frequently arises when it is convenient to him to have a special

Mr. DANIELLS. I move that the

Mr. GIDDINGS. I desire to say that I believe that these returns, when obtained, will be of but very little use; because, if sent here at any time soon, they must be very hastily prepared. I learned from the clerk of Kalamazoo county that to prepare these statistics properly will require a very long time -longer than he is likely to be able to give before the closing of this Convention. He could not go over the records and ascertain the facts called for by the resolution in less than two or three weeks. I think, too, that the returns received from the other counties are not strictly accurate. Hence, I believe that these statistics will probably be of very little use. I do not, however, deMr. WOODHOUSE. I ask leave of sire to oppose the resolution; I am absence from five o'clock this after-willing to vote for it. the State of Michigan, when he under- noon until next Thursday morning that the gentleman from Kalamazoo, Mr. NORRIS. My impression is

term. In a large circuit like ours, with a judge holding four terms of court

AFTERNOON SESSION.

The Convention re-assembled at halfa year in some of the counties, past two o'clock p. m., and was called it is not to be supposed that to order by the PRESIDENT. a judge can attend to his ordina- The roll was called, and a quorum ry private affairs, and attend to all of members answered to their names. those duties for a salary of twenty-five hundred dollars a year, and feel that he is properly compensated. I do not believe there is an intelligent man in

stands the duties devolving upon a circuit judge, who will ask us, as the representatives of the people, or who will himself do so, to vote in favor of fixing the salaries of circuit judges at less than three thousand dollars a year. I think it ought to be at least that amount.

Mr. LEACH. I rise to express the hope that we will come to a vote on

LEAVE OF ABSENCE.

My business at home is such as to re-
quire my attendance there for one day
at least. I have been absent but one
day during the session.

Leave was granted.

(Mr. GIDDINGS,) is somewhat mistaken as to the correctness and value of the statistics thus far received. I know that there has been no difficulty in the county of Wayne in sending up returns which, although not in the precise form Mr. NORRIS. I desire unanimous specified in the terms of the resolution, consent to offer at this time a resolu- are just what we want. These statistion. It will be recollected that some-tics have been called for with the extime since the Convention called for pectation that they will be useful to

JUDICIAL STATISTICS OF COUNTIES.

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us in dividing the State into judicial shall have no objection to so modifying is only 19. It must mean 119, or a districts, if the committee on the the resolution. still larger number. That is one of schedule should deem it proper to Mr. TURNER. I desire that the the errors I have noticed. recommend such a division in the Con- returns from Genesee county should stitution. The simple fact as to the not be published until we can get fur-ly an error. number of days of the sessions of court ther returns from the clerk of that in each county during the year 1866-county. which can be ascertained by five min- Mr. LOVELL. I would ask in what utes' inspection of the records will be respect the return from Genesee counof great value to us. If it is desired ty is defective. that Genesee county shall be excepted Mr. TURNER. In one place, where from the resolution in order that cor- it speaks of the number of cases dis-adopted. rections may be made in the returns posed of within a period of, I think, The following is the statement which already received from that county, I eighteen months, the number returned the resolution directs to be published: Causes in Circuit Courts of Organized Counties of Michigan pending January 1st, 1866, and July 1st, 1867; Number disposed of in that period by Trial, or Judgment; aggregate amount of Judgments in Civil Causes; Number of days session in 1866.

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In the Circuit Court for the County of Wayne.

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or amount of decrees in Chancery.

SALARIES.

thirds of the members elected to each
House."

Mr. HOLT. I move to amend by With this view, I was ready at any adding after the words just adopted time to vote for giving an ample salary these words: "but not during the term to each of these officers. But when I of office for which such officers were found that the Convention had deterrespectively elected." The clause will mined not to require these officers to then read: "It shall be competent for reside here, or to give their constant the Legislature to increase or diminish attendance to their official business, I the salaries herein provided, but not voted for smaller compensation, for during the term of office for which the simple reason that I know, partially such officers were respectively elected." from my own observation, and also Mr. STOUGHTON. Mr. President, from the information of those in whom we have provided in the Constitution I place implicit confidence, that these what the salaries of these officers shall officers do not now give their entire be. Now, it seems to me simply ab- attention, nor any considerable.part of surd for us to say that the Legislature their attention, to the business of their may increase or diminish those salaries departments here. without any limitation. If this pro- When I voted for the compensation vision be inserted in the Constitution, of the judges, I did it with a belief the power of the Legislature may at that the compensation should be such any time supersede the provisions of as to induce men of the first rank in the this article with reference to salaries. profession to take these judicial posiIn fact, it would be eqvivalent to hav- tions; and if inferior men should get ing no constitutional provision at all upon the bench, I would give the Legwith regard to salaries. I propose, as islature power to reduce their compenan amendment to the amendment, to sation, so as to oust them from office. add to the words already adopted, in- That is one reason. I will state anstead of those proposed by the gen- other. Suppose that we should expeN. B. This statement does not include either decrees, the following: "by a vote of two- 1850-and there appears to be strong tleman from Muskegon, (Mr. HOLT,) rience such a crisis as occurred prior to indications that such a thing may be~~ I would desire that the Legislature the power to grade these salaries in should, in such a contingency, have proportion to the salaries of all other officers in the State-not public officers, but private officers-officers of banking institutions, manufacturing estaðMr. McCLELLAND. I desire to lishments, insurance companies, and offer an amendment which I offered in other officers. My object would be to committee of the whole. It will speak place these officers, public and private, for itself. It is to amend section one as nearly as possible on an equality. by striking out the following words at Hence, I think it was improper for the the close of the section: "It shall not Mr. MCCLELLAND. Mr. President, gentleman from St. Joseph to denomibe competent for the Legislature to the gentleman from St. Joseph, (Mr. nate this an "absurd" proposition. increase the salaries herein provided," STOUGHTON,) may consider a proposiMr. MUSSEY. I think that perand to insert in lieu thereof the words, tion of the kind which I have offered, haps the gentleman from Wayne (Mr. "It shall be competent for the Legisla-"absurd." That, however, seems to MCCLELLAND) is a little too sensitive in ture to increase or diminish the sala- me rather a strong word to use. If regard to the remark of the gentleman ries herein provided." the gentleman had examined the con- from St. Joseph, (Mr. STOUGHTON.) It Mr. ALEXANDER. On this amend-stitutions of other States, as I have seems to me a little inconsistent, not ment, I call for the yeas and nays. done, I think he would not have ap- to say absurd, to provide for fixing The yeas and nays were ordered. plied such a term to this provision. salaries, and then afterward delegate The question was taken; and the Now, sir, I would ask the gentleman to the Legislature the entire power of amendment of Mr. MCCLELLAND was from St. Joseph what is the difference making those salaries more or less, as agreed to; there being yeas 39, nays between leaving this subject of salaries it may choose. I presume that this is 38, as follows: entirely to the Legislature, as is done all the gentleman from St. Joseph YEAS-Messrs. Aldrich, Bradley, Brown, in most of the States, or putting meant to say. This is the view I took Case, Coolidge, Corbin, Crocker, Desnoyers, it in the form in which I have framed of the matter when the motion of Duncan, Hazen, Henderson, Holt, Huston, this provision? I have voted with the the Lawrence, Longyear, Lovell, Luce, McClelgentleman from Wayne was land, McConnell, Miller, Morton, Musgrave, gentleman for the different salaries made. But at all events, I am Norris, Purcell, Rafter, Sawyer, Shearer, enumerated here, with the excep- opposed to leaving the question in T. G. Smith, Stockwell, Tyler, Van Valken- tion of two or three. I voted against this position. burgh, Walker, P. D. Warner, White, WilI would prefer that lard, Williams, Winsor, and Wright-39. those salaries for the simple reason that we should either provide that these NAYS-Messrs. Alexander, Andrus, Barber, the Convention had determined not to civil officers shall receive such salaries Bills, Blackman, Chapin, Chapman, Conger, require the State officers to reside here. as the Legislature may prescribe, or Daniells, Divine, Duncombe, Estee, Elliott, I have been under the impression that else that we should fix the salaries perFarmer, Ferris, Germain, Giddings, Howard, Kenney, Leach, Miles, Murray, Mussey, Ninde, they should reside here, or at all events manently in the Constitution; and I Pringle, Richmond, Sheldon, Stoughton, that they should give most of their at-apprehend that the State officers and Thompson, Turner, Utley, M. C. Watkins, tention to the business of their respec- the judges would prefer to have their Withey, Winans, Woodhouse, Yeomans, and tive departments here at Lansing. salaries fixed and defined in the Con

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article are still in order.

The PRESIDENT. The Convention, when it took its recess, had under con-ment so as to include the amendment Mr. HOLT. I modify my amendsideration the article entitled "Sala- of the gentleman from St. Joseph, (Mr. ries." Amendments to the body of the STOUGHTON.) The clause will read if my amendment be adopted, "It shall be competent for the Legislature to increase or diminish the salaries herein provided by a two-thirds vote of the members elect to each House, but not during the term for which such officers were respectively elected."

LEGISLATIVE REGULATION OF SALARIES.

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