pro

(Mr. DANIELLS) speaks of, it is only this matter of debt on these municipal is the only admissible form in which a another illustration of that fact. organizations. I wish gentlemen should township should be permitted to aid in not misunderstand me. And let me go still further. I I am not op- the building of a railroad. Let it levy test most earnestly against the incur- posed to assisting that portion of the its tax, and then if the money is lost, ring of debt on the part of towns for State, which is so ably and eloquently it will not throw another dollar away internal improvements. I undertake represented here by members from the on the adventure, or invoke the spirit to say this; and I say it without any northern counties. They have said of repudiation bye-and-bye, which will that we of the southern counties will arise by the community being called act ungenerously if we refuse them upon to provide for the payment of the these privileges. They say, "your rail- debt. It will have paid its money, and roads are built by the aid of the State; if it is lost that is the end of the matthey were sold at great loss, and now ter. you turn around and propose that we shall receive no aid at all for this purpose."

Besides, that is the best form of aid which a township can give. A dollar in cash from a township will buy iron as well as a dollar in cash from any other source. But a dollar in bonds from a township for the purpose of aiding a railroad, does not represent a dollar in cash, because it cannot be sold for a dollar in Wall Street. But a dollar in cash from a tax payer actually represents a dollar, and will buy iron or pay for work, or anything else that is needed.

sort of fear of contradiction from any man who can judge wisely and well on this subject; I assert that ninety per cent. of all the money that shall be raised by township bonds and devoted to railroad schemes which are now hatching in the State of Michigan, will be as absolutely lost as if it was taken and poured directly into the Let me say one word upon this submiddle of Lake Michigan. It will be ject. These railroads in the southern all lost before the people who pay it part of the State were built by the aid have any means of telling anything of the State; they were originally proabout it. Now I may be told that jected and started by the aid of the these towns may not be called upon to public funds. They were roads pospay this money until the roads are car-sessing peculiar facilities, such as unried forward so far that their comple- fortunately are not and cannot be tion can be secured, and the townships possessed by railroads in the northern will suffer no loss. They will be told part of this State. They were running that their bonds will not be required on great lines across the continent, conNow, if I hold property in any town to be paid until the grading of the necting with the great west and lines of or city in the State, I pray you gentleroads has been completed through the railroad there. And yet these roads, as men to declare, that if that township various towns. Now how is that done? gentlemen concede or urge, rather be- or city has so much confidence in any It is done by the contractor running yond the fact, however, were sold at railroad scheme that is presented beinto debt, and your township bonds are a loss, that is, on the whole. The fore it, that it is willing to invest its given him to reimburse him. And then Michigan Central was sold for more means in that scheme, it shall be comwhen the railroad has reached a point than it cost; the Michigan Southern pelled to levy its taxes and pay them which will test whether the project is a for less, and the northern lines were over for that purpose; that the towndesirable one, that is, the point where entirely lost. These works thus resulted ship shall have no responsibility except the iron must be obtained to put upon in a heavy loss to the community as a for the money it is to collect and pay whole. Now, I am willing to shoulder over. You will pay then as you go. it, the bonds will have been used up, and the whole fabric will vanish like a some loss in that regard. I say to my But, I go still further. I deprecate friends of the north and everywhere, this idea of aid by townships for this dream. Township bonds are issued for five, propose something which can be per-purpose. It will go on until there is ten, or fifteen per cent. of the valua- formed by the State in order to benefit debt on the right hand and debt on tion of the township. What are they them in this regard, and I will not the left hand, and debt above and going to bring? I wish gentlemen oppose incurring a debt to be expended debt below. I deprecate any such would consider this matter. Where wisely and judiciously upon bonds that thing exceedingly. If there are any are your township bonds to find a would have a cash value in the market. great lines of public improvement market? Take a small railway of I am not unwilling that such a thing which will benefit the State, fifteen or twenty miles long; where are as that should be done. But I do not am perfectly willing that the State the bonds of your railway going to think it is wise and just to have these should advance a million, or even find a market, much less the bonds of bonds issued by municipal organiza- two millions, of dollars to aid those works of public improvement. That your townships? You cannot go into tions. the great market of the country, It seems to me that the only form would remove all the complaints that where bonds must have a valua- of municipal interference in this mat- are continually made against the debt tion, if they have any at all, ter that is at all admissible is this: if which was incurred and expended in Wall street, in New York. you are going to aid a railway five per upon lines of improvement in the What do your township bonds cent., ten per cent., or any other southern part of the State. I am wil amount to? They are paid over to the amount, aid it precisely as an individ- ling that that should be done for this railroad contractor, and he takes them ual would himself subscribe to the reason; the bond of the State of Michfor really not more than thirty or for- stock of a railway. He puts his hand igan is cash; a bond of the State of ty, or fifty per cent. of their face value. in his pocket, takes the money out of Michigan for one hundred dollars will They will not buy any iron or do any- it, and puts it in the venture; if it suc- sell for one hundred dollars, and that, thing of that kind. I humbly pray ceeds, well; if not, it is gone. If a too, just at the point when these railgentlemen, here, who are interested in township is to aid in the building of a roads must have assistance, or they die; the municipal organizations more di- railroad let it levy its tax; that will that is, at the time when they must rectly, who with me are interested in bring the matter directly to the judg- have the iron to be placed on the road. the welfare and prosperity of this, our ment of the man who votes for Let the men in the towns who have beautiful State, where we hope our the tax. He must answer this ques- money of their own go on and grade ashes may lie; where our children have tion: "Are you willing to put your the roads, and get the ties for the been born, and where we hope they hand in your pocket, and take out this roads; let them do the work up to that will live after us, I entreat them most ten per cent. or any other sum, and point. And then, if the project is one earnestly, that they shall not invoke put it in this venture?" I think that which can command the confidence of

the Legislature, let the Legislature of Michigan appropriate the money, or credit, or bonds of the State, to the proper extent to aid in the completion of the work. If it cannot command that confidence, then I say that no such aid should be given to it.

་

well aware that what I said about in- The committee accordingly rose; and
creasing the State debt may have ta- the PRESIDENT having resumed the
ken gentlemen here by surprise. I am Chair,
quite well aware that we are all reluc- Mr. PRINGLE reported that the
tant to have our State debt increased, committee of the whole, pursuant to
and none more than I am. I had oc- the order of the Convention, had had
casion on another subject to express under consideration the article entitled
my earnest feelings about the matter "Legislative Department;" had made
of State indebtedness, and the great some progress therein, and had directed
necessity of providing for its discharge him to ask leave for the committee to
when contracted.
sit again.

.

p. m.

AFTERNOON SESSION.

The Convention re-assembled at three o'clock, p. m., and was called to order by the PRESIDENT.

I say, besides the land grant roads of this State, there is not one of these railroads, I do not care where it is, though it be brought to the condition of being graded, and its ties actually It is better at all times when you Leave was accordingly granted. laid down on the road-there is not contract a debt, if it be a public debt, Mr. LONGYEAR. I move that the one of them, which on town bonds, to know precisely what the debt is, its Convention now take a recess. or on any other municipal security extent and amount. If you clothe The motion was agreed to; and the which can be raised, will command these municipalities all over the State Convention accordingly, (at twenty-five the iron to finish the road, un- of Michigan, with the power to con- minutes past 12 o'clock p. m.,) took a less assistance comes from some ex-tract debts for the purpose of aiding recess until three o'clock traneous source. Take the road that railroads, who can tell what will be the runs through this place. I do not amount of that indebtedness? It may believe this road could have been con- suddenly swell up to ten millions of structed without the aid of one of dollars. The power is unlimited and those great corporations, whose bonds unrestrained. You can tell nothing are equivalent to cash. There are about the amount which may arise meritorious works in the State of from the exercise of such a power. It Michigan that can be constructed only is better if debt is to be contracted, in the same way. Perhaps they would that one body should contract it and be paying investments if finally con- know the precise amount of that debt, structed. But a large number of them because that is a matter of great imwould never be paying investments at portance. It must be paid by the taxall. If constructed, it must be with payer if paid at all; and it may as the distinct understanding that they well be paid through the agency of the will not make any returns to the stock-State as through the agency of these holders. Therefore they must be con- municipalities. It will be far better to structed by the aid of those large cor- know precisely the amount of the porations which already exist, and debt. Ithink it would be better to have which will construct them as feeders to it in a form which will command their roads, or they must be con- money to the full value of the debt. structed by the united aid of the peo- In that way the money can be used to ple of the State acting through the the full extent represented by the debt, Legislature of the State. and there will be either no loss or as little as possible.

The roll was called, and a quorum answered to their names.

LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT.

Mr. LUCE. I move that the Con

vention now resolve itself into com mittee of the whole, on the general order.

The motion was agreed to.

The Convention accordingly resolved itself into committee of the whole, (Mr. PRINGLE in the chair,) and resumed the consideration of the article entitled "Legislative Department.”

MUNICIPAL AID TO RAILROADS. The CHAIRMAN. When the committee rose this morning, it had under consideration section twenty-seven of this article, which had been amended to read as follows:

"The Legislature shall not authorize any city or township to pledge its credit for the railroad to an extent whereby the outstandpurpose of aiding in the construction of any ing indebtedness, exclusive of interest, on

Now, do not let us cover up our townships with debt; let us protect I really hope that this Convention them. And if aid must be given, (and will not authorize this contracting of I am not at all unwilling to give this debts by townships, cities and counties aid,) let us provide that it shall be for this purpose. I hope that if anygiven in a wise and statesmanlike form. thing is done in that direction, it will Let us give it by the aid of the only simply be to authorize the imposition corporate body, the State itself, that of a tax and to compel the money so can give it justly and adequately. I appropriated to be paid over. Or am perfectly well aware that this would still better; if the interests of the State lead in some respects to disappoint-require some lines of public improvement. It would be necessary for the ments to be constructed for the openState to find out the great routes in ing of the vast domain of the north, The gentleman from Kent, (Mr. M. the State that would serve the interests then let the debt be contracted by the C. WATKINS,) moved to amend this sec

of the largest number, and apply its aid to them. Every gentleman on this floor knows that in a wise system of internal improvements that must be done.

State itself, and its bonds be distributed to aid those works that will actually promote the interests of the State. I do not propose to detain the Convention longer. I said at the outset I said at the beginning of my re- that I was not properly prepared to marks that I would be glad to bring speak upon this matter at this time; a railway to every man's door; but I that I did not feel at all able to speak. said that that belonged to a class of But I felt unwilling to permit this secblessings that are not admissible. tion to pass without submitting the You cannot bring a railroad to every views I had upon this subject. 'man's door. You must construct your Mr. DANIELLS. I move that the railways in reference to leading lines of committee now rise, report progress, communication, to carry out schemes and ask leave to sit again. that are really practicable. I am quite

The motion was agreed to.

account of aid to any and all railroads, shall of such city or township. No county shall

exceed ten per cent. of the assessed valuation be authorized to pledge its credit for any such purpose.”

tion by striking out the word "ten," before the words "per cent. of the assessed valuation," and to insert the word "five." Pending which, the gentleman from Tuscola, (Mr. HUSTON,) moved to amend the amendment by striking out the word "five," and inserting "twenty." The pending question is upon the amendment to the amendment.

Mr. STOUGHTON. Mr. Chairman, the decision of the Convention upon this question will, if the Constitution framed by us be adopted, exert a very great influence upon the future pros

mittee differed from me in regard to notwithstanding my conservatism, not- inconsistency of conferring upon the the propriety of adopting such a provis- withstanding my ordinary coolness and Legislature a power of such magnitude; ion, and instead of the adoption of lack of excitability, at one time during a power that is calculated to disturb the proposition which I had the honor the last session of the House of Repre- and destroy the harmony of every sucto present, another was offered as a sentatives I was almost frightened in cessive Legislature that will assemble substitute for it, and that substitute is consequence of the action of that House in this State, during the continuence of embraced in this section twenty-seven, upon this question. Let me state a cir- this Constitution, if it shall be approved before the committee of the whole. cumstance. By the eleventh rule of by the people. But there are other considerations That substitute was adopted by the the House the order of business brings committee; it was adopted also by a motions and resolutions after the third connected with this subject, which I large majority of that committee, and reading of bills. The order of business consider of vastly greater importance. my only fear is that it will be adopted was at one time suspended so that mo- In consequence of the excitement of by the committee of the whole. tions and resolutions might be in order. the last few years, the tendency Now, in relation to this proposition, Previous to that the House had adop- of the public mind has been to I do not occupy the position of my ted a resolution that no bill appro- run largely in the direction of pubCalls were made upon friend from Wayne, (Mr. SHEARER,) priating the public money or public lic debt. who has spoken upon this question, lands should be acted upon by the the people for men to fill the deciand who was satisfied with five per House, until it had been considered mated ranks of our armies. Those cent., but would vote for ten per cent., by, and passed in committee of the calls were to be met, and nobly did the and would not like to vote for twenty. whole. But after the order of business people of our State respond to them. I have a decided preference in relation was suspended, and motions and reso- But they entailed large expense upon to what shall be adopted as the result lutions were in order, then, by a single the tax payer, and upon the individual. of our deliberation upon this question. motion adopted by the House of Rep- They cost our people largely in money, I believe that in this question is em-resentatives, thirty bills, appropriating and heavy debts have been accumubodied great and important interests swamp lands for the construction of lated in consequence of these operaof our State at large, and of all our State roads, were taken from the gen- tions. Many of those debts are yet people. I am afraid that we are labor- eral order and placed on the order of resting upon the localities that coning just at this time under a moment- third reading. By three other motions, tracted them; so that all the localities ary excitement upon this question. II think, fifteen railroad bills were taken of our State are not entirely free from fear that on account of the excitement from the general order, and placed indebtedness. which has sprung up regarding this upon the order of third reading. We Many other localities, by the action question, the judgment of this Conof previous Lagislatures, had contractvention will be swerved from the coned indebtedness for works of public imclusion to which it would otherwise be provement of the character of those now drawn. I think that the proposition under consideration. And, while those offered by the gentleman from Cass, I would inform the gentleman from obligations have been incurred, the (Mr. VAN RIPER) is not only just, but Wayne, (Mr. LOTHROP,) that those bills tendency of everything has been to it is a proper proposition to be adopted were passed upon separately, but not inflation. If the amount of taxation by this committee. I believe that the having been considered in committee called for was only two or three per principles embodied in that proposition of the whole, they were not allowed to cent., we did not consider it a heavy are right. While I am in favor, and be read through in the House. After burden upon ourselves. Everything have been, of restraining the Legisla- the titles were read by the Chair they that was produced in the community ture from conferring any power upon were passed to the clerk to be read brought exorbitant prices. Even within local municipalities to grant aid in the the third time, when, by the vote of the six months the staple product of this manner proposed, I am satisfied that it House, the third reading was dis- State, wheat, has brought from three will be impossible to secure such a re-pensed with, and they were put upon and a half to four dollars per bushelsult as the judgment of this Conven- their passage. I refer to this, not to a price unheard of before in the histion. Therefore, I am willing to adopt call in question the action of the House, tory of this nation. Another staple the proposition offered by the gentle- but to illustrate the excitement which product of this country, wool, has man from Cass, restricting the powers this subject is calculated to bring into brought one dollar and one dollar and to be conferred to a limit of five per the halls of legislation. It is demoral- a quarter per pound. Wheat has depreciated one hundred and twenty per cent. in value, and wool one hundred and twenty-five per cent. This, I consider, is but the beginning of the end. All the circumstances by which we are surrounded are changing. Instead of flush and easy times, we will soon be called upon to experience such times as some of us who have long resided in the State of Michigan have before experienced. I think it would be unnecessary for me to recall to the minds of the old residents of this State the experience of thirty years ago. I only recur to the fact to illustrate the idea that we may be upon, or near, times as destructive to the pecuniary interests of our people as were those times, in order to excite caution in the minds of

In reference to the principles embodied in this section, I can only say that I consider them of very doubtful propriety. It is a question that has not As I have remarked, this is a quesonly agitated Legislatures, but it is a tion upon which courts have been question that has divided courts. Those divided. While the courts of one members of this Convention who had State sustain a law of the Legislature the honor of holding seats in the last authorizing the granting of aid in the Legislature, can readily recall to their manner here proposed, the courts of minds the excitement that was exper- other States decide such laws to be inienced in the House and Senate, in valid. In those cases, however, there reference to this question. And the was no constitutional provision; it was proposition which I submitted for the only the statute law which governed consideration of the committee on the courts. But I understand the propthe legislative department, was offered osition was decided by the court upon for the purpose of taking from its merits as a general proposition. the Legislature this vexed and excit- Now, I desire that members of this ing question. I will admit that, body will take into consideration the

members of this Convention upon this the collection of the money, so that the excitement has been so great that question. future generations shall not be embar- the question of dollars and cents was I have referred to the local indebted-rassed to liquidate the debt. not taken into consideration; the vote ness of this State. I'desire to call the The gentleman from Ingham, (Mr. was given without thought. They conattention of gentlemen to one other LONGYEAR,) referred in glowing terms sidered only the railroad they were to consideration in connection with this to the prosperity of the city of Lan- have, and not the tax which they would question of debt. Our own State debt sing, attributing it to the advantages have to pay. amounts to a trifle less than four mil- which this city has derived from rail- therefore, reflect the wishes or the inThese votes will not, lion of dollars. The proportion of the road communications. I am apprised terests of the tax payers of the locality; national debt belonging to the State of that tax-payers in the city of Lansing they may be controlled by outside inMichigan, according to population, is have been burdened to a degree almost fluences. In one instance, I know, in something less than eighty million of calculated to lead them, in some in- the county of Washtenaw, a vote upon dollars. The interest upon these debts, stances, to regret that they reside in this subject was taken three times; State and national, must be met; for this city, in consequence of this and twice the electors decided against it is not unreasonable to suppose that other improvements that have been granting aid; the third time they had the people of the State of Michigan forced upon the city of Lansing. For become somewhat discouraged, those will be called upon to pay their pro- myself, I have paid in the city of Lan- in the interest of the roads were out to portion of the national debt. Taking sing (and I consider myself very for- vote, and those opposed, having beonr proportion of the national debt, tunate in being the owner of but a come tired of the pending contest, reand requiring our people to provide small amount of property here) taxes mained at home, and the proposition for the payment of interest upon it, of from nine to eleven per cent. upon was carried. I refer to this only to ilwe have an annual expenditure up- its valuation. That is the way they tax lustrate one of the ways in which such on the State, in the way of interest, property in the city of Lansing; that is a proposition may be carried. estimated at six per cent., of something the way these improvements are made, over five million of dollars. Gentle- and the prosperity of the city is car-sire to be understood as being opposed In all that I have said, I do not demen may perhaps not have taken into ried forward. Let me give a single in any manner or form to internal imconsideration these things. I will instance: I have had property in the provements. I am as much in favor acknowledge that when they first pre- city of Lansing assessed for four-fifths of all the projected railroads within the sented themselves to my mind I was of its value for public improvements, startled. and I offered to sell it for the other It is now proposed, beyond all this, fifth, and could not get an offer for it. to authorize municipalities and locali- But I do not refer to this for the purties of the State, by a provision to be pose of detracting from the fair name embraced in this fundamental law of and fame of this city. I respect the I possess. the State, to incur a further indebted-people of Lansing, and I am gratified

limits of the State as any other man. I am as ready to devote my own means to the construction of roads in which Ţ may be interested, as any other man in the State in proportion to the means

I would not be unwilling, with the

ness, that may amount to some thirty at their prosperity; but I do believe gentleman from Wayne, (Mr. LоTHmillions more. I estimate the value of there is a limit within which it becomes ROP,) in view of the advancing conthe property of the State as equalized necessary and important for men act-dition of the agricultural interests in by the State board of equalization. ing in a public capacity to be governed the southern portion of the State, to By this section, as it is proposed to be by considerations of reason. amended, by a limitation of five per appropriate from the State treasury an Again, it is proposed that this aid amount to aid the newer settlements in cent., then a tax is authorized of over by municipalities shall be authorized the development of those localities in fifteen million of dollars. Now, I de- by the Legislature, or that the muni- the way of public improvements I sire that members of this Convention cipalities shall be authorized by the would not object to adopting a proviswill hesitate, and ponder well the re- Legislature to grant aid to the amount ion in this Constitution by which the sult of their action, before they come of ten per cent. I have no doubt that localities themselves might be allowed to a determination that will be cal- by those legislative enactments it will to raise an amount equal to ten per cent., culated to involve the pecuniary in- be provided that the electors shall vote or more if they desired, if they would terests of the State to the extent I have upon this question. this question. mentioned. And in consider-only raise the money and pay it. But ation of that fact, it is urged that no I conceive there is no interest that reThe gentleman from Wayne, (Mr. injustice can possibly be done to the quires the localities of the State to LOTHROP,) who last addressed the electors themselves, or to the tax pay- burden themselves with perpetual taxcommttee, referred to the manner in ers and property holders. Now, I ation and indebtedness, for the purwhich these municipal bonds were have had some experience in regard to pose of constructing works of imagused for the purpose of constructing this matter of voting taxes. There has inary benefit to them. railroads. It is not needful that a been no time within the past six further reference should be made to or during the history of the rebellion, ciple, that the Legislature has no more Again, I believe as a general printhe extent of loss which is experienced when a demand has been made for right to authorize localities to raise by the localities in this form of in- men, that our localities were not wil-money for the construction of private debtedness, or aid. But it is a fact ling to vote the last dollar they pos- enterprises in the shape of railroads, well known to everybody who has sessed, in order to raise the money to than they have for the construction of had any recent experience in the clear themselves from the draft. It saw mills, or grist mills, or woolen manner of constructing railroads, that was reasonable, it was right, and I did factories, or any other class of improvethese municipal bonds are in many not object to it. But I consider that ments for private instances passed over purposes. I believe at a very the excitement in regard to railroads the principle to be the same. There heavy depreciation from their par is as great, or may be as great, in its in- is no way in which I am able to disvalue. Now, if the aid is to be fluence upon local communities, as the cover any difference, whether the granted in any manner whatever, I excitement in regard to any other money is appropriated for railroads, or am with that gentleman in favor of question that can agitate the public for these other improvements which I authorizing the levying of a tax, and mind. I know that in many instances have mentioned.

years,