rush upon that job large numbers of men to bring about the completion of the building of those buildings on time, or in a hurry. What do you say about that?

Mr. GUNTHER. Well, I saw that that was all right. That was the object that was the intention of all of us who started there, I suppose; it was mine, I know. But when they can crowd 40 or 50 men into a room 10 or 12 feet square, there wasn't room for anything else. Mr. McCULLOCH. And did not accomplish anything?

Mr. GUNTHER. There was no work.

Mr. MCCULLOCH. And which would delay it if there was nothing accomplished?

Mr. GUNTHER. Certainly delayed it.

Mr. McCULLOCH. And would increase the cost?

Mr. GUNTHER. Increased the cost; the cost went on just the same. Mr. MCCULLOCH. What do you say as to the method of handling materials; was there a waste in the handling of materials?

Mr. GUNTHER. At times it did not look like there was anything else.

Mr. McCULLOCH. I wish you would just state in your own way and from your practical experience, give the committee your views as to just what occurred there in the way of waste and how it occurred?

Mr. GUNTHER. Well, it was waste-you could find material of all kinds and of all descriptions lying about in all manner of shapes; driven over and tramped in the mud and just wasted. You might as well have thrown it away. I guess they did throw a good deal of it away.

Mr. MCCULLOCH. An absolute disregard for it?

Mr. GUNTHER. It seemed so to me; yes.

Mr. McCULLOCH. To come to specific kinds of materials; tell us something about the waste of lumber.

Mr. GUNTHER. The waste of lumber was enormous. My work was a little different from most of it. I was there at general headquarters and had practically special work. I made all of the trims that were used throughout the camp and the sewer manhole covers and fire-alam boxes and such as that. I had to have mechanics. I couldn't put up with saw and hammer men or butchers, as we called them. The boxes were-most of them were made from the stuff I salvaged from the waste, that was made by me. I had a team or two around there. I had them busy; when I didn't have them busy hauling stuff to the sections where it went to, I had them haul in lumber. Sometimes it was merchantable stuff. I used it that way rather than to see it go to waste.

Mr. MCCULLOCH. What were your orders on this?

Mr. GUNTHER. I had no orders on it. My orders were to do the work.

Mr. McCULLOCH. You say you did this yourself?

Mr. GUNTHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCULLOCH. As a practical man and mechanic, what do you say as to the method generally throughout the camp, of others; did they do that?

Mr. GUNTHER. There wasn't anybody over the camp doing the work I was.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Did they use these scraps?

.

Mr. GUNTHER. They certainly could not, from the mountains of it piled up and burning at the camp, on the old canal bank and on the river bank.

Mr. MCCULLOCH. You say there were mountains of it?

Mr. GUNTHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCULLOCH. What do you say as to whether it was valuable or usable?

Mr. GUNTHER. I can describe it so that you can understand it. There was a score board to be made at the ball grounds, and desks, hundred of those things I made, and I used anything that was applicable rather than to cut up a new board. One of the scrap piles was back of the ball ground. I said, "I guess I will go up there and make the score boards there rather than to bring the stuff down here." I guess I could have made score boards for.the United States. Mr. McCULLOCH. When you say that, you mean there was great quantities of it there?

Mr. GUNTHER. Quantities of it; lumber piled up and piled up as it was there; some was burning, some on the fire, and some the fire had not gotten to. It is hard to estimate the amount of it. Mr. McCULLOCH. You took it off the bonfire?

Mr. GUNTHER. Before the fire got to it.

Mr. McCULLOCH. It was burning that way?

Mr. GUNTHER. The fire was at the far end of it.

Mr. McCULLOCH. And you took the lumber for the scoreboard from a pile of lumber that was burning?

Mr. GUNTHER. It was from a pile of lumber that was burning; I pulled it out of the pile.

Mr. McCULLOCH. It was burning at the other end?

Mr. GUNTHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCULLOCH. The intention was to burn it up?

Mr. GUNTHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCULLOCH. For whom were you building the scoreboard? Mr. GUNTHER. It was the camp.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Government property?

Mr. GUNTHER. I suppose it was; it was at the camp.

Mr. McCULLOCH. The waste of lumber, you say, was enormous? Mr. GUNTHER. Certainly was.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Now, what did you observe as to the waste of. other materials, such as hardware and nails?

Mr. GUNTHER. Nails in the same proportion; I had there at headquarters from 20, and sometimes 40 and 60 men, depending entirely on the amount of work that we wanted to get through to take care of the officers, and I venture that the nails that I used were practically nails that I had my hand, the driver of the team, pick up. Whenever he found a keg of nails on the ground, either broken or a full keg, he was to bring it in. I had nails not only for myself, but I furnished them to everybody in the neighborhood. I furnished them to the warehouse at one time. They had run out and they asked me whether I had any nails, and I said, "It depends on how many you want." They said they were nearly out, and I sent out on one occasion nearly a truck load of salvaged nails.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Salvaged by you?

Mr. GUNTHER. By my orders.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Had you been told to do that?

Mr. GUNTHER. I was never told to do that.

Mr. MCCULLOCH. Were you the only one that did that?

Mr. GUNTHER. So far as I know; yes, sir.

Mr. MCCULLOCH. And you did that from your own sense of economical justice?

Mr. GUNTHER. From a sense of economical justice to myself and the Government. They asked us to buy thrift stamps and to sacrifice in our daily lives one way and another, and we did it for a time, and then to see it thrown away that way, it went against the grain.

Mr. McCULLOCH. You were a thoughtful man and knew as a citizen of the Republic you would have to pay for it?

Mr. GUNTHER. I would have to pay for it and I am paying for it

now.

Mr. McCULLOCH. And you will for a good many years?

Mr. MCKENZIE. One thing that was gone into to some extent, that was the manner of handling the lumber, taking it off the cars. Was it taken off with any care, or was it thrown off and split?

Mr. GUNTHER. My observation was, when it went off the car into the yard it was handled with better care than it was when it was hauled into the field. In taking it off the car they seemed to take some pains to pile it in lengths, the 10-foot lengths in the 10-foot pile and the 12-foot lengths in the 12-foot pile, and so on, but when it was hauled into the field you were liable to get it two miles or more from where you wanted it, and if there was a mud puddle in the neighborhood, it was bound to be in that mud puddle.

Mr. MCKENZIE. There was some testimony yesterday about their throwing off the heavy tiling. I thought you might know something about the manner in which the lumber was unloaded?

Mr. GUNTHER. The lumber was not piled with the care that we would pile it in our daily business, either in this city or any other city, as private business. When the lumber comes and is taken off the truck, it is piled up in respectable shape so it can be used, but these fellows would [making throwing gestures with his hands]any old way.

Mr. MCKENZIE. What effect would that have on warping and twisting the lumber?

Mr. GUNTHER. A bad effect.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Made it unusable, most of it?

Mr. GUNTHER. Some of it unusable.

Mr. MCKENZIE. It was green, as I understand, most of it?

Mr. GUNTHER. Most of it was green. It was hard to get dry lumber for that; to use it and get it on the jobs, and make progress. Mr. McCULLOCH. Would you be willing to venture an opinionof course, it would only be an opinion-would you be willing to give your opinion as to the percentage of the lumber on that job that was wasted?

Mr. GUNTHER. Well, I don't know. In my opinion, I think you could come very nearly building another cantonment as large as that one down there with the material that was wasted down there.

Mr. McCULLOCH. That is, you mean lumber alone, or all the material?

Mr. GUNTHER. All the material.

Mr. McCULLOCH. It has been testified here that they would take. out from under the buildings or off from near the buildings, after a building had been built, enough nails to build another building. Mr. GUNTHER. Well, I salvaged enough, myself, had it done, and seen it, to have done that myself.

Mr. McCULLOCH. What was the attitude of the contractor in regard to this waste; was there any effort made to stop it?

Mr. GUNTHER. Why, there may have been. I don't know of any effort; no direct orders were given to salvage any of those. They had a salvage department, or a cleanup gang, or whatever they call it, I think. But when they cleaned up, they cleaned up everything. Mr. McCULLOCH. Took it to the dump; is that right?

Mr. GUNTHER. Took it some place, to the dump or

Mr. MCCULLOCH (interposing). Mr. Gunther, what I want to get at, is it possible that that waste could have gone on without the contractor and his agents knowing about it.

Mr. GUNTHER. If I had been the contractor and was paying for this stuff, it would not have gone on very long.

Mr. MCCULLOCH. How do you account for it?

Mr. GUNTHER. I don't know unless it was just mismanagement, is all I know. They could have salvaged immense quantities of this stuff, if they had a practical man at the head of that department. I got doors, I don't know how many, that I took and piled up. The upper part of this barn that I used for a carpenter shop, I had the second story of that full of doors and sash thrown out, and everything piled on top of it. I saw some of them laying close to me for a day or so and then when the wagons would go over them I would tell them to bring them in. When the wagons would go over this clean-up job, they would take everything together.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Where would it go to!

Mr. GUNTHER. Some on the canal, and was burned, and some on the river bank.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Mr. Gunther, you have given us an instance of where there were a large number of men in a room?

Mr. GUNTHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Now state that again, just about how many? Mr. GUNTHER. I don't just understand.

Mr. McCULLOCH. A large number of men working in a room where they were working all over one another; too many men in a

room.

Mr. GUNTHER. Yes, I have seen three men have hold of an ordinary 2 feet 8 inches by 6 feet 8 inches door, trying to put on the hinges. If that thing would occur in the ordinary contract they would not last 15 seconds.

Mr. McCULLOCH. In other words, if a contractor had supervised this and had intended to build this camp quickly and economically, that he would not have stood for what went on a minute? Is that right.

Mr. GUNTHER. No: I don't think so.

Mr. McCULLOCH. But these things did go on there, not only for a dav, but weeks and weeks; is that true?

Mr. GUNTHER. Weeks and months.

Mr. McCULLOCH. All the time?

Mr. GUNTHER. Yes. I don't think there is a contractor in the land would stand for it, two men working on a 2 feet 6 inches by 6 feet 8 inches door, much less three.

Mr. MCCULLOCH. These same conditions prevailed, as I understand it, during all the time you were there?

Mr. GUNTHER. I noticed it all the time I was there.

Mr. McCULLOCH. While you were working for both Bentley and McGrath?

Mr. GUNTHER. To a certain extent.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Will you distinguish? You say "to a certain extent?"

Mr. GUNTHER. When I was working for McGrath I wasn't all over the camp as much as I was with Bentley.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Your facilities for observation

Mr. GUNTHER (interposing). So far as I could see

Mr. McCULLOCH (interposing). So far as you could see was the same?

Mr. GUNTHER. Yes; and the reports I got from the boys working for me, and the others, you know.

Mr. McCULLOCH. So that those conditions prevailed from the time you went there, practically, until you left?

Mr. GUNTHER. Yes.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Which covered a period of a year practically? Mr. GUNTHER. Nearly two years.

Mr. McCULLOOCH. Let us get it exact?

Mr. GUNTHER. From the 27th of June, 1917, until the 18th or 20th of March of this year, 1919; about 21 months.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Just about 21 months?

Mr. GUNTHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCULLOCH. During all that time the contractor was represented by superintendents?

Mr. GUNTHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Foremen over you?

Mr. GUNTHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCULLOCH. What supervision did they give?

Mr. GUNTHER. Sometimes they would come along and say: "What are you doing? How are you getting along? When you get through with this job there will be something else to go at." And that was about the extent of it so far as I was concerned. I don't know what they did after they left me.

Mr. MCCULLOCH. Now, did you see Bentley's superintendent?
Mr. GUNTHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCULLOCH. How frequently would he be on the job?

Mr. GUNTHER. For Bentleys, as I told you, my work was special work; I couldn't hardly tell; I went there under Hollingsworth and we got orders from

Mr. McCULLOCH (interposing). What was his position?

Mr. GUNTHER. He was general superintendent for Bentley and he told me "All you have to do, Billy, is to keep the office force at it; to get the office force in shape." I got the old building ready and one thing followed after another and when Capt. Dabney and Capt. Rhoades I was given as many orders from those gentlemen as any