ple, and, at the same time, to do full justice to those individuals who had carried the act of last session into effect, and who, after due inquiry, might be found entitled to the protection of the legislature.

you are convinced, but take care that you bill introduced. Admitting, for the sake come honestly by your conviction." Had of argument, that parliament were justitheir lordships come fairly and honestly fied last year in suspending the Habeas by the conviction which induced them to Corpus, in the absence of all the circumagree to the present bill? In answer to stances which had, until that period, been this question, he would refer to the re- considered indispensable to such a bill,→→→ port on the table, and then to the bill in there being no foreign war, no civil war, its amended state. In that amended state no part of the property of the country of the bill, was the principle for the first engaged in the alleged conspiracy; they time avowed (for the report contained no were certainly bound to fence round such such principle), of the necessity of in- a measure with every species of precaudemnifying persons for acts done by them tion that might prevent it from being contrary to the law. The words intro- hereafter drawn into a mischievous preceduced by the learned lord on the wool- dent. For if there was a case in which sack, and which, he contended, were not the evil to be dreaded from repetition was borne out by any thing they had heard greater than in any other, it was this, in from ministers, or which had transpired which the legislature renounced the proin the report, were these: "and tection of the individual, which was its whereas some of the said acts, so done, peculiar province, and abandoned him to may not be strictly justifiable in law, but the executive government, placing his li being done for the preservation of the berty and privileges at its disposal, withpublic safety, the persons who have done out affording him the possibility of redress the same ought to be indemnified in re- for whatever injury he might sustain, spect thereof." Before this amendment He supported his noble friend's amendof the bill, the ground on which parliament, in order to do full justice to the peoment was exclusively called on to agree to the measure, was the expediency of protecting persons called into court from producing the evidence on which they had acted, and which could not be disclosed without prejudice to the public in- The Earl of Westmorland, after the able terest. That might be a very good sub- manner in which the question had been ject for one bill. But was it right, now, discussed on both sides of the House, felt on the third reading of this bill-founded great reluctance in intruding on the too on a report, which stated, that the House, but wished to make a few observamagistrates had exercised their power tions on what had just fallen from the most mildly-to relieve magistrates and noble marquis. The noble marquis must others from the responsibility which at- have overlooked the earlier clauses of this tached to them for illegal acts-without bill, not to be aware that its general tenknowing what acts had been done, or dency, as well as the direct tendency of what parties had been affected by them? the clause introduced by his noble and Such a proceeding might be proper here- learned friend, was to protect persons who after-but, under these circumstances it might have gone beyond the legal diswas a sweeping clause, which in justice, charge of their duty. The Bill of last ought not to be agreed to. In the com- year, for suspending the Habeas Corpus, mittee on the bill an objection had unex founded on the reports of committees, pectedly arisen as to the propriety of in- composed of individuals of every party, serting Ireland in a particular clause, and was passed by a great majority of both on that occasion, the noble viscount, to Houses. What did the noble lords oppoexplain the matter, was obliged to refer site object to the present measure? They to one of the petitions laid on their lord- said that the suspension of the Habeas ships table-one of those very petitions Corpus was unnecessary, and that the which a majority of that House declared insurrections and conspiracies which had ought not to be referred to the Secret existed, might have been put down withCommittee. This proved the imperfect out it. He concurred entirely in that opiway in which the business had been car- nion. He fully believed that those conspiried on. In fact, no attempt had been racies and insurrections might have been made to examine the whole state of the put down by the executive government country, which should have been deve- without the extraordinary powers given loped, before any report was made or any to it. But had the noble lords calculated

how much murder, bloodshed, and devas- | in such a state? And if it was the duty of tation, might in that case have occurred? parliament, under such circumstances, to Had they considered how many brave protect the secretary of state, it was soldiers might have fallen, or, if that were equally their duty to protect the magisof little importance, how many of the de- trates; and to protect those from whom luded individuals themselves might have information of the designs of the disperished on the scaffold? It was mercy, affected had been obtained. and justice, and wisdom in the legislature to prevent such evils. Who could say to what extent the mischief might have proceeded, even had it been eventually checked, if parliament had not enabled the executive government to make the exertions which it had made? But their lordships had been told that all the disaffection which had manifested itself in the country was the work of spies and informers. It happened rather unluckily for this assertion, that Castles, one of the persons alluded to, had no communication with the leaders of the party respecting which he had subsequently given information, until three weeks after some of their most violent acts, and with respect to the other, that what took place in the country had been distinctly predicted long before he had been taken into the service of government. Spies and informers had from the earliest periods of history been the objects of popular dislike. But he believed that no government had ever existed by which they had not been used, and that hardly any conspiracy or treason had ever been detected and punished without their aid. He would not argue whether or not the nation at large owed gratitude to such persons, but this he knew that many individuals did owe gratitude to them for opening their eyes, and showing them that those whom they were protecting under the supposition that they were honourable men, were rank traitors. He was very willing to allow, that a bill of indemnity was not a measure that followed of course the act of last session. But it should be recollected, that when the legislature gave to the executive government extraordinary powers, it was the duty of that government to exercise them. It was the imperative duty of the secretary of state, if he felt the exercise of the extraordinary power vested in him to be necessary to the security of the country, to exercise it. But would parliament invest any man with power, and then leave him subject to prosecutions and per secutions for the remainder of his life, for having exercised it? Was it possible to suppose that the legislature of this country would leave a servant of the country

The Earl of Carnarvon was free to confess, that his objections lay to both parts of the measure, though certainly if he were called upon to say to which in the present state of their lordships' information on the subject, he was the more adverse, he should reply to that lately introduced because it extended the principle of the bill to that of which their lordships had no knowledge, and respecting which no communication had been made from the Prince Regent, nor any information elicited from the sealed bag. The necessity for it was a recent discovery on the part of his majesty's ministers. He would by no means assert that if the circumstances were thoroughly investigated, there might not appear a strong case for this indemnity; but at present their lordships had no facts, no grounds before them. Were ministers to be allowed thus to call on the legislature whenever they might find it convenient to interrupt the ordinary course of justice, without assigning the slightest cause for such interruption? The excess of proceedings on the part of the magistrates was not even hinted at as a ground for the bill, until the last night of debate upon it. That excess might be unjustifiable. It had been said that where 10,000 men were collected, the assembly must be unlawful and that the magistrates acted with propriety in dispersing it. In a free country like this, where the freeholders and other inhabitants might meet at pleasure to address the throne, to petition parliament, &c. this was singular doctrine. Their lordships had been told that the meeting at Manchester was an unlawful assembly. He was ignorant whether or not it was so; for the statements on the table, referring to that subject, were in contradiction to one another. But supposing it as unlawful and riotous as ministers wished it to be believed that it was, the conduct of the magistrates by whom it had been dispersed, and who it had been allowed had exceeded their powers, ought to be investigated, in order to determine whether they should be indemnified or punished. The bill ought to be divided. It now proceeded on two alle

3rd. "Because the departure from this Just and judicious mode of proceeding, gave an indiscriminate importance to the accused, whilst it exposed the administration of the government to a dangerous disrespect.

4th. "Because even when the act of Habeas Corpus is suspended, none on that account ought to be apprehended upon questionable suspicion, or, to use the language of the report, upon • such expec

been proposed to parliament, until an open and impartial investigation had taken place.

"Because it is manifest that there has been no widely-spread traitorous conspiracy, nor even any extensive disaffection to the government, since the Secret Committee, whose report is the sole foundation of this proceeding, do themselves express their satisfaction in delivering their detations of evidence as ministers have uncided opinion, that not only the country avoidably relinquished,' but upon such in general, but in those districts where grounds only as would be just warrants the designs of the disaffected were the most for arrests and trials in ordinary times, the actively and unremittingly employed, the only legal effect of the Suspension being great body of the people had remained that it suspends the deliverance of the ⚫ untainted even during periods of the accused; we think, therefore, that a ge'greatest internal difficulty and distress;' neral indemnity for such numerous and stating further as facts, that the insur-long imprisonments, ought not even to have 'gents were not formidable by their numbers, though actuated by an atrocious spirit, and that though the language used by many persons engaged in this enterprise, and particularly by their leaders, left no room to doubt that their objects were the overthrow of the esta❝blished government, yet that such ob'jects were extravagant when compared with the inadequate means which they 'possessed; and that not finding their 'confederates had arrived, as expected, to their support, and that in the villages 'through which they passed, a strong in'disposition being manifested against their cause and project, some of them had thrown away their pikes before the military appeared, and that on the first show of force had dispersed-Their leaders ' attempting in vain to rally them.'

2nd. "Because in such a state of things so consolingly described by the committee, and so almost ludicrously destructive of every idea of an armed rebellion, or dangerous insurrection, more especially against a government supported by such an untainted people, and such an immense military force, we cannot but think that a different and less alarming course ought in wise policy to have been pursued, and that tranquillity might have been equally restored by a vigorous execution of the ordinary laws and the exertions of a vigilant magistracy, without any suspension of the public freedom, since it is the prompt selection and speedy execution of a few palpable offenders, rather than de

5th. Because, from the mistaken principle of this bill, malicious and meritorious illegality are equally protected, on the false and unfounded assumption that informations ought to be indiscriminately and perpetually secret, but even if we could agree that whilst traitorous conspiracies are actually in force, and extraordinary powers in action for their suppression, secrecy could in all cases be justified, yet we never could consent to its continuance after order was restored; the laws being then sufficient to protect good subjects for having honestly discharged their duties, and because holding out such general prospects of indemnity is a dangerous encouragement to mercenary informers, who make an infamous traffic in the lives and liberties of mankind, deceiving and disgracing the government, whilst they betray the innocent whom they accuse.

6th. "Because it is not the occasional resort to such secret and impure sources of evidence in cases of obvious necessity, but the systematic encouragement of it, which we conceive is sanctioned by this bill that we protest against and condemn, since the successful prosecutions of the worst traitors and libellers can bring no security to the government of this country, unless the conduct of its ministers and of its parliament, by a faithful adherence to the free principles of the

constitution, shall constantly expose the malignity of their treasons and the falsehood of their libellous complaints.

(Signed)

ERSKINE,
CARNARVON,
GROSVENOR,

LAUDERDALE,

MONTFORD,
KING,

AUCKLAND.
VASSAL HOLLAND,
LANSDOWNE,
ROSSLYN."

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 5.

kingdom for education, and that a very large annual grant was given by parlia ment for this purpose, he hoped they would see the propriety of bestowing some money for a similar purpose in England. Seldom had less than 40,000l. been annually granted, ever since the union, to the Irita charter schools. How far this money, which was given with so laudable an intention, was beneficially employed, was very doubtful. Indeed, all the inqui ries which he had made into the condition of the Irish charter schools, led him to believe, that some way or other, either from carelessness or misapplication, these schools were productive of very little good. They received 40,000l. from the MOTION FOR A COMMITTEE ON THE public and from the bequests of individuals EDUCATION OF THE LOWER ORDERS.] they had an income of nearly 20,000l. Mr. Brougham said, he rose to move the more. Their whole revenue might thererenewal of a committee which had already fore be taken at nearly 60,000l. a year. in two former sessions been engaged in a The House would be very much surgreat and laborious investigation, and prised to learn, that from this income of from which a large body of evidence had between 50 and 60,000l. a year, not more already been reported to the House; he than 2,500 children were educated. When alluded to the committee appointed to he said 2,500 children, he rather thought inquire into the Education of the Lower he stated the outside of the number Orders. The committee had not been educated by these schools. By a report enabled to complete its labours before the made to the Irish House of Commons, close of last session; but he pledged him- before the Union, the number of children self last session that he should move the educated was stated at 2,500, and the renewal of the committee at an early pe- bishop of Raphoe, in a charity sermon, riod in the present session, that it might stated them at that number. But when lay the result of its labours before the Mr. Howard instituted an inquiry into the House in sufficient time to admit of subject, he found the number of children some measures being adopted before the educated in the charter schools of Ireland close of the session. He had already not one-third of that number. He bestated to the House some proceedings lieved that some reform had taken place which the committee were of opinion since that time, and that these schools ought to be taken to remedy the want of were now in a better condition; but he education in different parts of the country. believed he was stating the outside when They were of opinion that assistance he stated the number of children educated ought to be given by the public to- by them at 2,500. To show the difference wards the erection of schools in differ- between the application of the funds of ent places where it might be deemed the charter schools of Ireland, and the apadvisable to have them, but that the plication of a small fund raised by several principle of granting a permanent in-praise-worthy individuals, he would state, come either to government or to any society, for the support of schools, ought not to be sanctioned-that where there was a want of the accommodation of school houses and houses for teachers, means for supplying that want ought to be furnished by the public, either by way of loan or otherwise, according to circumstances. It was the opinion of the committee, that a moderate sum of money was all that would be wanted for this purpose. When they considered the great sums which had been distributed in a sister +

that with an income of between 5 and 6,000l. the Hibernian school society in London had instituted and now kept up 340 schools, while the charter schools with an income of 60,000l, only kept up 33 schools. The Hibernian school society educated 27,000 children, while the charter schools educated only 2,500 children with nearly six times their income. Again, nothing could exceed. the order and the cleanliness of the children educated by the Hibernian school society, whereas it appeared from