possession of a large number of children and keep them in custody indefinitely and that is about what we are doing.

Doctor Voldeng has well said that the child gets along better and has a much better chance to develop normally as a member of a family than he has as a part of what might be called a mass collection of individuals in a state institution.

This thought leads to many interesting things that might be discussed in connection with this matter but time will not permit it. It seems to me that children should be kept in state homes just as short a time as possible. No matter how well they are treated or kept they should be kept there only until a good home can be found for them in some good family.

One reason why children should not be kept in state homes longer than is necessary, is the financial reason. If a home in some good family is a better place for a child to be and I am convinced that it is, the policy of the state should be to place the children out as soon as possible rather than to spend large amounts of the people's money to build additional juvenile homes. I do not know exactly how many children Superintendent Kepford has at the Juvenile Home at Toledo, nor do I know how many children are at Davenport. Whether or not at least 250 of these children now in those homes could be living in comfortable homes over the state, is an interesting question, but I am convinced that with the right kind of work, that could be done. Whether or not seventy-five per cent of the children at Toledo are now prepared to be placed in homes, I am not absolutely certain about, but I am quite sure they are. It is also probably true that seventy-five per cent of the children at Davenport are now ready to be placed in homes. Of course we know that the agents employed in finding homes for children have many difficult problems to solve and that the process of placing children in suitable homes is a slow work, but it does seem to me that here is where effective work should be done.

I do not know how many agents are engaged in placing children over the state, but it seems to me that instead of holding these children in state institutions, that we ought to get them into homes over the state. What is best for the children is best for the state.

There is much work to be done. I have thought about it a great deal and the other members of the board, I know have given it careful consideration. How are we going to get these children out of the state homes and into good private homes as fast as we should, is the question to be solved.

The matter of taking temporary care of them is important but the state's care should be only temporary. If we could have a sufficient number of agents to place these children when and where they should be placed, we could reduce the population of the two juvenile homes fifty per cent or more in the next year.

I suppose Mr. Hollingsworth who has spoken on this subject, is acquainted generally with welfare work. I should think that the work of placing children could be helped a great deal by the welfare workers of the state.

Every county, I assume, has a welfare organization whose chief aim no doubt is to look after those who are unable to look after themselves. It might be arranged to interest these county organizations in the matter of placing these children and personally, I hope that some arrangement of this kind can be made so that the children in our state homes may have the advantage of good private homes at all times as soon as possible.

COOPERATION IN VOCATIONAL GUIDANCE.

Chairman Strief: The next paper on the program is "Cooperation in Vocational Guidance," by Reuel H. Sylvester, Ph. D. of the Des Moines Health Center, Des Moines, Iowa. The paper will be found on page 225.

Superintendent Beach: This has certainly been a very enjoyable paper and I think there is no question but that we all feel that cooperation is what we need. With reference to the majority of the women we receive at Rockwell City, we have very little information.

Only a few of these women passed through the public health center of Des Moines and two were below par mentally. They have only been placed out of circulation for a few months, having been committed to Rockwell City for six months. Then they will probably come back to Des Moines and present the same problem again.

The women might be divided into three groups. One group is eager to learn and appreciate everything taught in the institution. The other, or lower grade, cares nothing about attending school. The third class are open to guidance. They are drifting but are willing to go whatever way they are guided. Chairman Strief: Superintendent Von Krog, you are on the program to discuss this paper.

Superintendent Von Krog: I am sorry that I did not hear all of Doctor Sylvester's paper, but I was pleased with the part of it that I did hear. I think we all appreciate the fact that we are emphasizing cooperation more than the vocational guid

ance.

As stated in the paper vocational guidance in the United States is about fifteen years old. It was started in Boston by Doctor Parsons and Meyer Bloomfield, under whose direction they worked it out very successfully in their public schools. They did not find it necessary to employ specialists for this work-they found a large number of positive characters among the teachers who were able to guide and direct many of these young people in the choice of a life work. But I believe in the democratic institutions that we have in this country. We do not want all of our boys and girls to be examined at a young age and placed in some profession or some trade and say that they should stay there the rest of their days.

We were almost in danger of having that thrust upon us in the state of Illinois. That was really made the testing point for the country. One of the former superintendents of Chicago made a study of the schools in a number of European countries and especially in Germany. This was in the interest especially of the commercial club of Chicago, and he came back here with glowing reports of the system in Germany that was introduced by Bismarck in his palmiest days-the days when he laid the foundation for great efficiency. Doctor Shoop, superintendent of the Chicago schools, was very active and instrumental in not having Chicago and Illinois introduce that system of vocational guidance. Doctor Shoop spoke from experience because he received his training and education in Germany, and when he came to this country he dropped his training which he could not have done in this foreign country, and went into professional work. When comparatively a young

man he became assistant superintendent of the Chicago schools which shows that a person can be active and proficient in one line and yet be successful in another line or in a profession as well.

The thing we are interested in at our institutions more than anything else, is to know about the people who come to us. I think from the preceding paper and the discussion it has brought out that with the boys and girls who come to the Toledo and Davenport institutions, they have their previous records from the social workers more complete than we have the records of the boys and girls who come to Eldora and to Mitchellville.

In this connection Doctor Sylvester mentioned that Mr. Hoeye and Mr. Culp are doing a good work, but I believe the work should begin when we receive the boys instead of waiting until we have the boys prepared to send out. I think there should be field workers to get the information for us that we might properly guide in selecting the vocation that we are planning to teach them while with us.

I heartily agree with the sentiment expressed this morning that the boys and girls belong in the home and as soon as we can get them ready for the homes, or they can learn something practical or do something to help their homes, we could send them to their homes.

I am beginning to appreciate the term, "institutionalized employes." There is a sentiment among people who have worked at an institution, who have worked there in their little world. for so many years, who feel they can do more for the wards than anyone else. Some other people can do this as well or better if we can in some way bring a message to those people. of what we are trying to do. I think the state agents and superintendents of the institutions should do this as much as possible.

We have at Eldora some over three hundred boys and when they come to us they would all rather learn a profession than to learn a trade, but we do not teach the professions there we just have the trades. They have no idea of what is required in either a profession or a trade. The only knowledge they have, and especially those who have lived in cities, is gained from observing people who apparently go about doing nothing.

For instance they would consider that a lawyer or a doctor was somebody who was doing nothing and that is the reason they want to follow that profession. There is where our guidance can come in and we can cooperate in guiding properly. I think that is the reason why we should get the information of each individual-get his past record before assigning him to a trade, but we usually have to find that after we have him placed in some shop within the institution. We should have people who are wideawake and active as field workers, gathering data on all of our wards.

We have a number of boys who have come to us as automobile thieves. Last week I succeeded in getting an assistant engineer who is a licensed automobile man. And now we have a large number of boys who want to learn how to fix automobiles. If that is guided properly, that is the work the boys like. I think we could make good citizens of these boys and send them out into shops to do that particular work.

I have known of the work of Doctor Sylvester for a number of years. He examined quite a number of children of the public and parochial schools before quite an audience when I was superintendent at Emmetsburg, and I know he had them measured and classified as to ability. There is a science whereby it can be worked out to tell what a child is best fitted for; but I think we should not tell a child just what he should do for his life work but leave it if possible to his own decision, after he has been advised of the ability, etc, required for trades and for professions.

Superintendent Witte: I think I heard Clarinda mentioned indirectly. In the matter of people being committed to hospitals for insane some of them perchance have been examined by Doctor Sylvester and his assistants, and I for one would heartily cooperate in the endeavor to secure information from any and all sources. I would only be too glad to get t from psychologists, and from the health center in Des Moines.

I have made a mental note that hereafter we shall inquire in the case of anyone from Des Moines who could possibly have been under the observation of Doctor Sylvester. I would be glad to have the information. We do not know much about the patient to begin with unless we make inquiry. The physician's return on our patients is often very meager and in