time of peace. With respect to another place. The chancellor of the exchequer phrase, which a noble lord (Castlereagh) was now proposing to levy in a time of was stated to have used, and which the profound peace, 70 millions of taxes from right hon. gentleman who spoke last said the people of this country. There had he had never heard, namely, the “igno- been levied during the most extravagantly rant impatience of the people with respect expensive war which had ever been car. to taxation,” would that right hon. gen- ried on by this country, only six millions tleman presume

that the noble lord more of taxes, which six millions were to had not made use of the expression? The constitute the only difference between right hon. gentleman might not have war and peace. This was the return to heard it-he was sure he had not heard the people of this country, for the it, as he said so-but he would call on the patriotism which they had displayed during colleagues of the noble lord, to say if the most extraordinary contest that had the expression in question had not been ever been maintained by any country-a uttered by him? He declared that he reduction merely to the amount of six had heard him utter it; and that it was millions. The noble lord had quoted a cool and premeditated phrase, which some nights ago, an opinion said to have did not escape the noble lord in an un- been expressed by the late Mr. Pitt, and guarded moment, or in the heat of argu- had talked of his feeling with regard to ment, but at a time when he had sufficient the establishments of the country, in 1793, leisure to weigh the force of his words, the lowness of which he had deplored. and when he was taunting gentlemen on The noble lord might quote the opinions this side of the House with the zeal which of Mr. Pitt; he could not deny them; they were displaying in the exercise of but he could answer, that those who knew their duty as guardians of the public Mr. Pitt, as well as the noble lord, and purse ; and therefore they had a right to who had been as much consulted by him, charge the noble lord with the deliberate assured him, that however much in the use of language injurious to the public last year of his life, from the extraordifeeling. The right hon. gentleman on nary and most unfortunate turn which the the floor (Mr. Rose) had told them, that war then took, he might deplore the inbe disapproved of the discussion of the sufficiency of the establishments of the question of the property tax at present, country to meet the danger, he had never because it was premature. Why, they ceased to applaud the economical arrangewere now receiving petitions from every ments which he had made from 1786, part of the country, complaining of the to 1793. This was what he had been distresses under which they were labour- given to understand from those who knew ing from this very tax, and imploring the Mr. Pitt as well as the noble lord or the interference of the House; and yet the right hon. gentleman. He approved of right hon. gentleman, who was old in the determination of an hon. and learned parliament and knowing in all parliamen- gentleman, who had stated that he felt tary practice, chose to tell them that they himself called on to throw every difficulty could not with propriety consider these in the way of the precipitation of this petitions now that the petitioners ought question. No man would accuse him of to wait till the bill was passed, and that factious views in his opposition to the gothen their representatives might tell them, vernment; but he thought he might conthat the House had considered the ques- scientiously act up to that principle, and tion, but that they had not taken their view he would so do. of the question. The right hon. gentle- Mr. Rose, in explanation, maintained, man had told them, that if the property that he had not said the property tax was tax was put by they must have some necessary on account of the estimates. other, because if they had not that tax What he had said was, that the estimates the establishment could not be kept up. were yet to be considered, as to which, he He fixed, therefore, the establishments of had pronounced no opinion; and that if the country on the question of the pro- the estimates should be adopted, it would perty tax (Cries of Hear, and No!] The be necessary to find, either in the proright hon, gentleman said No. Why, he perty tax or some other, so large a sum of had allowed, that the establishments were money as would cover them. to be of such magnitude, that if the pro- Lord Binning said, that nothing in the perty tax should be put by, some other of course which the gentlemen on the other, equal amount must be found to supply its side of the House were pursuing in the

least surprised him, after the knowledge and opinions. What was his conduct? On they had taken care to give of the system the first night of the session he had deon which they acted. The heaviest accu- clared his intention of proposing a renewal sations, the most unfavourable representa- of the property tax. The people had now tions of the motives and measures of go- enjoyed about a month to discuss the vernment, were so much within their usual measures they felt themselves called upon practice, were so much their stock in to pursue-to meet, to deliberate, and to trade, as he might express it, that he petition the legislature. How long a thought any appeal to their candour would period would be required, if this was not be useless, and any explanation perfectly sufficient? What government measures ineffectual. He therefore would make no could be carried into execution, if we such appeal, but would merely endeavour were to wait with the avowed purpose of to correct their statements in a few things allowing time for the marshalling of all which he thought essential in the present the opposition, however tardy, that might discussion. His hon. friend who spoke be made to them? Adverting to the last had appealed to the recollection of observations made by Mr. Freemactle on the members of the House, whether the what fell from Mr. Rose, he said that chancellor of the exchequer had not dis- gentlemen ought to be allowed to explain tinctly stated, that the property tax, when their own meaning; and that, when that renewed last year, was to continue only privilege was granted to his right hon. for one year, and had given a pledge that, friend, his opinions would be found perat the end of that period, it would be fectly tenable. His right hon. friend, had abolished ? He desired them to tax their stated, that if the property tax was not memories, and gave the evidence of his renewed or continued, it might be found owa in favour of the pledge. He (lors necessary to raise the supplies which it B.), with all his powers of recollection, was calculated to yield, from sources not could recall no such saying, and was of less objectionable than a tax upon income. opinion, that there must have been some A clamour was here raised, as if this mistake in interpreting what fell from his opinion conveyed a monstrous and alarmright hon, friend on that occasion. He ing proposition. Notwithstanding that

. did not believe, that as circumstances then clamour, he was prepared to contend, that stood, such a pledge could be given, con- a revenue equal to the proposed, modifisistently with any degree of political pru- cation of the property tax must be raised; dence or common calculation of probabili- and the question was, whether we should ties. His hon. friend had accused the resort to it, or whether we could find any chancellor of the exchequer of endea- substitute less burthensome or oppressive? vouring, by the rapidity with which he | There was no threat conveyed in this pressed the discussion of the property tax alternative beyond what was heard last to stifte the public voice, and prevent year, when nearly the same identical exthe people from laying their petitions pressions were employed by his right hon. before parliament. This was an accusa- friend the chancellor of the exchequer. tion that was always brought when taxes Mr. Wynn explained. Under correcwere in question. There was not an im- tion of the chair, he stated, that if the post against the continuance of which, resolution for the continuance of the propetitions would not be presented, if any perty tax was agreed to on Friday, it prospect was entertained that they would would be impossible after that day for be effectual ; and whenever they were the House, consistently with parliamenresisted, the charge of stifling the voice of tary usage, to receive any petitions against the people might be brought against go. the tax. The noble lord did not seem to vernment. The noble lor contended, understand that this was what he (Mr. that there was no intention at present to Wynn) alluded to, when he complained stifle the voice of the people, nor did he that the measure would be indecently believe that the attempt would be prac- hurried if brought forward on Friday, as ticable if it were made. So far from it would be impossible for the numerous wishing to press matters with an unjusti- petitions now preparing against the tax, fiable degree of precipitation, and to de- to be presented before that time. prive the country of an opportunity of Mr. Baring contended, that sufficient expressing its sentiments, his right hon. time was not allowed for the full expresfriend had allowed ample time for the sion of the sentiments of the country on most deliberate expression of its wishes this odious and oppressive tax. Nume

rous meetings were called, and numerous seemed to have any force was, that the petitions were preparing to be presented act by which the tax was raised was about to the legislature, the object of which to expire. This was satisfactorily anwould be defeated by the precipitate swered, and shown to be unfounded, by a course which the ministers wished to pur right hon. friend of his, who stated, that sue. It had been again and again repeated the act for imposing it was not passed till in that House, that the chancellor of the the beginning of August. The act had a exchequer had declared his intention, at retrospective effect from the 5th of April an early period of the session, to propose in the same year, and consequently, as the a renewal of the property tax. This same course might be again pursued, alarming intelligence, he allowed, was there could no danger or inconvenience given by the right hon. gentleman at the result from the delay demanded. The time specified by his friends, but he was chancellor of the exchequer came out following the annunciation of the ob- with a notable discovery to the House in noxious measure too rapidly with its ac- the course of the present debate. He incomplishment to allow the sentiments of formed the House, that in the last act the the people to be collected and laid before words “ and no longer," which were inthe legislature against it. The chancellor serted in the two former acts, were omitof the exchequer had expressed his inten- ted, and he took great credit to himself tion and his opinion; and all that he (Mr. for the cunning device by which he was B.) now contended for was, that the coun- enabled to rebut the charge of a breach try might have an opportunity of express of faith to the public, and gave all the ing its sentiments and prayer. He would advantages of it to the government. His contend for the propriety of the construc- friends likewise supported and commended tion put on the words of the right hon. this wise policy, of which the House was treasurer of the navy by Mr. Freemantle. ignorant until the present evening. But He was not prepared to allow the dilemma this was not all the information that had to which the hon. gentleman on the other been gathered from the right hon. gentleside attempted to drive him, of either vot- man's speech in the course of this debate. ing the reduction of our establishments, He had mentioned, that he meant to proor the renewal of the property-tax. These pose the property tax for two years, and establishments, he hoped, would not meet to be then abolished, if no necessity with the sanction of parliament; but sup. should exist for its continuance to a furposing they did, he would maintain, that ther term. It might easily be conjectured there was no necessary connexion, even what ministers would declare a case of neupon the chancellor of the exchequer's cessity, and consequently what circumown showing, between them and the ob- stances would entail upon us this tax as a noxious tax. If our finances were in as permanent source of revenue. When flourishing a condition as the right hon. ministers spoke of the wealth and hapgentleman represented them to be, and if, piness of the country, they could only as he gave out, he meant to propose the refer to that small portion of it to continuance of the property tax for a pe- which their own travels extended. He riod of only two years, then some other admitted that all might be smiling besubstitute might be found; a loan might tween London and Brighton: that there be resorted to, or some other scheme might be no signs of distress, and no neadopted, less odious to the country, and cessity of retrenchment felt in certain less injurious to its resources than the tax quarters; but this did not prove that the in question. All these things, however, petitions on the table were without founremained for future consideration, and dation, or that there were no grievances would be decided upon more properly, to be redressed in the other parts of the after the discussion upon the estimates, country. On these grounds, he thought and in the committee of ways and means. further time necessary than could be obWhat he had now in view was, to show, tained by fixing Friday for the discussion that there was every reason for delay till of the ways and means. the petitions of the people should have Mr. Wallace said, it was in vain to talk time to reach the table of the House, and of the voice of the people being stifled, as no reason for the precipitate course pro. there were so many other ways in which posed by ministers. What valid argu- their sentiments might be expressed, bement had been offered against a short sides petitions to the House. But whatdelay? The only one that at first sight ever objection there might be to bring on

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the question of the property tax on a par. He did not mean to say there might not ticular day, it was impossible to say that be times and occasions when they were any pledge had been given by ministers bound to thwart the will of the people ; as to the discontinuance of the tax; for but this he would say, that he had never his own part he heard no such pledge. before heard it maintained that the House He did, indeed, recollect that when the were not bound to ascertain that will: bill was brought in, the tax was imposed that the opinions of the people were a mat. only for a single year, and it had been ter of perfect insignificance; and that expressly stated that this was done for they were bound to proceed with the this reason, that if the renewal of the tax question without caring what that opinion was again thought expedient, parliament might be-[Hear, hear!) He heard the might have an opportunity of exercising right hon. gentleman now say—“no-diits discretion on the subject. He thought rectly the contrary.” As by the rules of there could not be a more unobjectionable the House the right hon. gentleman could tax. It was evident, that if the property not be so audible at the present moment tax were abandoned, another, and proba- as himself, he would undertake the task of bly a more oppressive one, would be sub- being his reporter, and in doing so he en. stituted in its place.

titled himself to some thanks from those Sir James Mackintosh said, the right of the House who might not hear with hon. gentleman had assumed an assertion the same distinctness as he did, this inmade by a noble lord last night (Palmer- terlocutory interruption of " directly the ston), as a fact incapable of contradiction, contrary"-a use of words on the part of namely, that the proposed establishments that right hon. gentleman altogether uncould admit of no reduction to a greater known to him. Almost the whole of amount than 600,0001. This assertion of England was called to deliver their opithe noble lord had not been contradicted, nions on this subject within seven or eight merely because no one had had an opportu- days. In that state of things the channity, from the adjournment of the debate cellor of the exchequer proposed proimmediately afterwards, of contradicting ceeding with the property tax on Friday it; but the assertion would be contradicted next, which would render it impossible and deprived of all authority as soon as for any part of the country to express examined. The connexion between the their opinion afterwards to any practical establishment and the continuance of the purpose, because the House would then property-tax had not been stated on his be pledged to the principle of the proside of the House; it had been stated by perty-tax. The House could not fail to the treasurer of the navy; for what was see that this was virtually depriving the the language of the right hon. gentleman: people of the right of petitioning; an opHis language was, that if the House position as to the exercise of which right adopted the establishment, the country had been the cause of the revolution, but must have an income tax, or a tax of which had been discovered in the new equal amount in the room of it-[Hear, philosophy of the right hon. gentleman hear!] Could any thing be more clear to be a matter of insignificance. But than that this was a connexion between though the people could not petition, the establishment and the income tax ? they might, according to the right hon. Was it not a statement of the treasurer of gentleman, write a paragraph in some the navy, that if the establishment was newspaper or other for these were the adopted, the House could only escape only substitutes left by the right hon. genfrom the income tax by having recourse tleman. This was the substitute which to still more grievous taxes ? His state- he proposed for a privilege which had ment was, that we must either have the been held of such importance by our fore, income tax or worse. The right hon. fathers, and justly regarded by them as gentleman had professed infinite respect one of the bulwarks of the constitution. for the opinion of the people, provided He had heard in worse times than the prethat opinion should be postponed till it sent, times which might again occur, was useless till it could have no effect times of servility, of a blind acquiescence whatever on the debates of parliament on the part of great majorities of the [Hear, hear!] He did not wish to dero- | House in whatever came from the treagate from the rights of the House, or to sury bench. Sir James then alluded to say that every indication of the will of the the strange circumstance, that none of the people was to be imperative on them. gentlemen opposite had heard the noble

secretary's contemptuous expression of lishment should on principle be objected the popular anxiety for a relaxation of to. Yet, with our former moderate estabtaxes. "The right hon. gentleman on that lishments had we defied our foes, and risen bench had, he said, been stricken with to the rank in Europe which we now endeafness, a deafness which he seemed to joyed, and which, with the same establishshare with all the noble and honourable ment, we might still maintain. If he acfriends by whom he was surrounded-all companied the gentlemen opposite into of them seemed to be seized with the some details, the case would be found to same contagious malady. He had often press still more strongly against them. It heard of men being required to sacrifice was now proposed to maintain 53,000 their understanding to others, but this men in Great Britain -and Ireland, while was the first time he had ever heard that the utmost which at former times had been men in official situations, were required maintained in these islands was 33,000. to make a sacrifice of their outward senses This gave an increase of two thirds beyond -[A laugh].

the utmost amount of force formerly kept The petition was then brought up and up; and yet it was matter of derision to read, and ordered to lie on the table. say, that this case was evident without de

tails! Our colonies, it was true, had been ARMY ESTIMATES RESUMED DE- increased from 17 to 24;

but it was imposBATE.] The order of the day being read sible that an addition of one-third to our for resuming the adjourned debate upon colonies could have been the cause of the the motion made yesterday,

6. That the enormous increase proposed, unless some several estimates relating to army ser- other means of our defence could be stated vices, which were presented to the House to have failed us on thesudden. The House upon the 19th day of this instant February, was told that it could not admit the proby lord viscount Palmerston, and upon position that the force in question could Thursday last by Mr. Peel, be referred to be used against the people. In arguing a the committee of the whole House, to constitutional question, it was not neceswhom it is referred to consider further of sary to go into invidious and personal disthe supply granted to his majesty," the cussions ; but he should protest against reHouse resumed the said adjourned de- posing a confidence which the constitution bate.

denied ; and should not be content to look Mr. J. P. Grant said, he had never ad- { for the security of our liberties either in dressed himself on any question to the the forbearance of the ministry, or the House with the same emotion as that character of the soldiery. It was the buwhich he at present felt. The questionsiness of the House to look that whatever was neither more nor less than whether might be the disposition of the ministry, the House would sanction the introduction they might not possess power which might into the country of a military government be employed in a manner hostile to the and a large establishment. He should not constitution. It was now a question of rego into minute details on the question, be- spect to precedents, and of maintaining or cause he would not offer such an insult to breaking down barriers which had been his understanding, as to suppose it could held sacred, and that not by small degrees. be established by any satisfactory proofs, This was a new era, in which we were that the proposed establishment was ne advancing rapidly in innovation, and if the cessary [some laughing on the ministerial proposition of the ministry were agreed to, side of the House). The gentlemen op- the House would give its consent to adopt posite him might have spared their mirth as its models the despotic powers on the on such a question ; they must suppose continent. It was no palliation of the that the members on that side of the measure to say that the establishment was House were destitute of all knowledge and voted for one year, and that next year it experience not to know that the mainte- might be withheld. A military force had nance of an enormous army was inconsis. always been voted in this way, and the tent with the constitution of the country. present establishment would not on that During the last century, the peace estab. account be less permanent. He would not lishment had seldom exceeded 30,000 men, vest a power in the Crown in the hope of and before the last century' it had been reducing it at some future time, but should much smaller, never had it exceeded oppose, as far as his power went, an at50,000 men, and now it was matter of de tempt to justify by necessity that which rision that an attempt to treble that estab- no necessity could justify. If a peace es