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of faith could be fairly attributed to the volved any breach of parliamentary faith, measure to which the petition referred, it would not become the gentlemen conand yet the allegation of such a breach cerned in the transaction alluded to, to formed the main ground of the clamour bring that charge on this occasion, how. excited out of doors against the adoption ever the hon. and learned gentleman of this measure.

inight feel himself warranted in pressing Mr. Brougham said, that if the noble such a charge. lord wished to confine the attention of the Mr. Wynn maintained, that the breach House and the country to the merits of of faith imputed by the noble lord to the the question alluded io, it was rather administration of 1806, could only apply extraordinary he should have alluded at upon the assumption that the war would all to the transactions of lord Grenville have continued so long if the country had and lord Henry Petty, as that allusion remained under the conduct of that ad. could have no other effect than to divert ministration. attention from that question. But the Lord Castlereagh contended, that if the object of the noble lord was obvious; he country had only incurred the amount of and his colleagues were accused by the expenditure calculated upon by that adcountry of a meditated breach of faith, ministration, the whole of the property and the accusation was echoed in 'that tax would have been mortgaged by 1819; House. Hence the noble lord thought and that at this hour, if the annual expedproper thus to address that side of the diture of the war had not even exceeded House~" You cannot consistently accuse 32 millions, half the property tax Fould us of a breach of faith upon this occasion, have been pledged. for you have been guilty of a similar Mr. Wynn stated, that he had the aubreach of faith yourselves.” [No, no! thority of the noble lord alluded to, to from the ministerial benchi]. Then he assert" that it was not their intention to could not conceive what the noble lord pledge the property tax in any manner so meant by his quotation from the large book as to subject the country to its continuhe had that night produced; which quo- ance after the conclusion of the war: 0 tation, however it might avail him as far from it, indeed, it was their purpose, against lord Grenville and lord Henry rather than touch the property tax, të Petty, or those who co-operated with have recourse to other means of supplying them, formed no argument whatever the public exigencies, in case that should against those who were not at all connected become necessary. In the event of such on that occasion with the conduct of these necessity, the administration alluded ta noble lords. But whether these noble would probably have resorted to some of lords were guilty of a breach of faith or the taxes which had since been imposed. not, was a point which the public and Mr. Huskisson deprecated the loss of many members of that House would feel time which these incidental discussions themselves warranted in throwing over consumed. He concurred in the views of board, in considering the real merits of lord Castlereagh, with respect to the opethis question--and a material part of these ration of the plan brought forward by lord merits consisted in a charge of attempting Henry Petty; contending, that even if the to violate the plighted faith of parliament, annual expenditure of the war had not exwhich charge he was fully prepared to ceeded the sum of 32 millions, and the maintain--which charge, indeed, was justly amount of that expenditure was known to echoed from one end of the country to have been considerably more, no less than the other.

14,600,0001. of the war taxes would have Lord Castlereagh denied that he im- been pledged by this House. Thus such puted any breach of faith to lord Gren- a proportion of the property tax must ville and his colleagues upon the occasion have been mortgaged, as could not be realluded to. What he meant to say, and deemed without subjecting the country to was prepared to contend, was, that if the at least five per cent. of that tax, not plan of lord Grenville's administration had merely for two years, but for three or four been acted upon, the whole of the pro- years after the conclusion of the war. perty tax would have been mortgaged This he maintained to be an obvious de and rendered irredeemable for a much duction from the plan itself, which he had longer period than two years after the examined this morning. Therefore he conclusion of peace. Therefore, if the conceived that his noble friend was enticontinuance of this tux after the war in- tled to take the authority of those with

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whom that plan originated, against that leaving this entirely out of the question, of the hon. and learned gentleman, and gentlemen opposite said, “ see, under the those who thought with him.

operation of that plan, the war still going Mr. Tierney thought that there could on, how the property tax would be cut be no fitter time for a member of the up.". Gentlemen ought, however, to reHouse to state his sentiments upon this colleet, that the sinking fund would have tax, than when he was discharging his been placed in a situation different from duty to his constituents by presenting that in which it now stood. Now, he a petition against it. But, for his own would venture to say, without meaning part, as he had not at this moment that any offence, that there were not three excuse for troubling the House, he would gentlemen in that House, who understood confine himself to a very few words. perfectly Jord Henry Petty's plan, al. The gentlemen on his side of the House though so much had been said about it,

had on this occasion been accused by the It was a bargain of which the country .. noble lord opposite, of beginning debates clearly approved, for they did not protest

upon this tax, of creating delays, and pre- | against it. But what was the case now? venting more immediate business from | The public, acting under the faith of the

being discussed, when, at the same time minister, 'expected that a certain measure - be made this accusation, the noble lord should be abandoned, as they were taught

produced a large book, containing a most to hope it would. But then the noble complicated plan of finance, on which his lord turned round and said, “It is right lordship and his colleagues put their own that it should be continued ; and, if there construction, saying, that it was incum- be any breach of faith, it is not greater bent on their opponents to answer this — than that committed by those who pre. to answer that to look at schedule C, to ceded us in office.” This, truly, was a look at schedule D ; and, in short, to dis- pretty sort of argument, and had a great cuss all the parts of that complex state- deal to do with the merits of the case. If ment. But he must say for himself, that he were one of the noble lord's “train” he would not enter into the particulars of (to use an expression of his own) he should a plan of finance which was now eight begin to think that he did not keep his years old, as he was eight years older, and ground so firmly as he would wish people could contrive to amuse himself better to imagine. He should feel considerably than by reading it at this time. However, alarmed, when he saw his general, instead the argument which the noble lord endea- of fighting in the regular way, begin to voured to establish, by his reference to the throw glass-bottles and stink-pots. Infinancial plan of 1806, was, that there was deed, he did not think the noble lord and a breach of faith then, and therefore a the chancellor of the exchequer opposite, breach of faith was justifiable now. But looked so comfortable and happy as they he denied that there was any breach of used to do. They did not attempt to de' faith at that time; and he put himself fend themselves--they did not suffer their upon the country for the truth of the de- acts to stand or fall on their own merits nial. There was not then one single petition but they resorted, as weak people were presented to the House complaining of wont to do, to an abuse of their opponents, any breach of faith; but now, petitions and they called on the country to beware came from every part of the kingdom, com- of those dangerous persons. Now he plaining that if parliament continued this wished they would put him and his friends tax they would break faith with the coun- entirely out of the question, as if they try. What was lord Henry Petty's pro- were out of the world, and only look to position? “ If you (the people) agree to the luminaries that surrounded them.' this measure, we will undertake to exo

When the proper time came, he and his rerate you from any new taxes for a cer- friends, if regularly accused, would be tain number of years. Here was a fair ready to defend themselves. proposition which the country might Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald said, that the refuse or adopt. There was no cla- right hon. gentleman had accused his nomour about breach of faith, nor any thing ble friend of unfairly delaying the House like it. Lord Henry Petty's plan was | by the discussions into which he entered founded on the supposition that the war in consequence of the attacks from the would be terminated in nine years; and opposite side. This was quite a new comfew men, at that period, imagined it would plaint from that quarter. There were continue more than nine months. But, gentlemen in the House who had heard

the noble lord, almost by name, attacked | Amiens. But what they maintained was, most bitterly, only a few nights ago, for that it was not now pledged; and, not pot having made any reply to the argu, being pledged or mortgaged, the House ments, or rather the invectives which had had no right to call on the people to pay been so liberally poured forth from the it, as if a mortgage had taken place. other side of the House; and now the The several petitions were ordered to complaint was, because they had been sa. lie on the table. tisfactorily answered. If the petitions ac. cused government of being about to break ARMY ESTIMATES.] On the question faith with the people, and if the right hon. being put, that the Speaker should leave gentleman, perhaps for the tenth time, the chair, in order to resume the adjourbo preferred the same accusation, he was ed debate upon the Army Estimates, prepared to deny it; the contrary had al- Mr. Lambton rose and observed, that a ready been proved. With respect to the hon. gentleman who officiated as chairman plan of finance proposed by lord Henry to the committees of that House, and to Petty, the right hon. gentleman said, that whom a very liberal salary was paid for there had not been three persons in the that duty, had been absent during the House who now understood that plan. last discussion in the committee of ways The House was certainly obliged to the and means: he now wished to ask wheright hon. gentleman for his assertion, ther any of the gentlemen opposite would that it did not understand that plan on stand up in their places, and assert, that which a loan had been made, on which that hon. member was confined by illness, the war had been carried on, and the war or whether he might not as well be in taxes continued, and by which public cre- Northumberland for any use he had lately dit had been supported. But the right been in his office [Hear!] ? hon, gentleman had gone much farther, No answer being made, the Speaker when he asserted, that when the plan had proceeded to put the question, and upon been proposed, the war could not have leaving the chair, Mr. Osborne took his been expected to continue above nine seat as chairman of the committee, amid months. This, then, was the sagacious considerable cries from the opposition expectation entertained by those who benches for Mr. Brogden. framed this plan, from the expenditure of Mr. Calcraft said, that having moved 32 millions; from that system of wise li the question of adjournment on a former berality which the crisis of Prussia made evening, he thought it his duty now to them afford to that power a loan of state to the House his opinion upon the 80,0001! But he would do them the justice general question then before it. He disto say that this was not their expectation; approved of the estimates on account of they contemplated the continuance of the the number of men proposed to be kept war for fourteen years, and they expressly up-on account of the patronage and instated, that after the termination of that Auence arising to the Crown from that period, the nation might expect to be re- number, and because of the want of ecolieved of eleven millions of taxes; and the nomy on the part of government, which statement was then in these words, “ and they betrayed. He could not concur, the public would then be relieved from however, with an hon. friend of his (Mr. nearly the whole of the property tax." Bankes), who, on a former night stated [Hear, hear!] He now called upon the the amount of force which he thought right hon. gentleman and his friends to sufficient to be maintained. He consisupport the tax on the same principle on dered the reduction of his hon. friend was which it had been laid on.

carried to too great an extent: and he Mr. Baring said, that party recrimina- would venture to state to the committee tion had nothing to do with the question. his own views upon the subject. In the It was of no importance who had broken first place, however, he did not underfaith with the public, or who had not. stand the language of the honourable genGentlemen on the opposition side of the tlemen opposite, when they contended House did not deny the right of par- that this was not to be considered as a liament to pledge the property tax.

It
peace

establishment, for if ever a country was competent to parliament, at any time, could be regarded as in a state of peace, and under any circumstances, to pledge it. this country might surely be so regarded. It had been pledged by Mr. Pitt, and The first item in the estimates were the again at the conclusion of the peace of household troops, and that item, if com.

er be se: berland for a is otñce For nswer being

ta pared with former peace establishments, to which they were to be applied, he

would be found to have increased enor-should, for the moment, and merely for 112

mously. He would only refer to 1791, the moment, concede the point of necesEle when the household troops did not exceed sity in respect to the 25,000 men for Ire.

779 men: now they amounted to 1744, land. He should also leave out of his E. JO!

being more than double the number at consideration the 20,000 required for Gre. that period, and they were to be kept India, and the 30,000 composing the

up merely for purposes of parade and army of France, which would thus dispose ETXAB' show. If he were to refer to any other of 75,000 men out of the 150,000. With

period of a peace establishment, the in- respect to the army in France, however, order crease would be found to be in nearly the he certainly could wish that it were comDua te is

same ratio. He did not think any suffi- posed chiefly, if not wholly, of foreigners,

cient ground could be shown, either on not only as it would reduce the patronage par when

the score of the duty to be performed and influence of the Crown, but also, as he m.tten da

in the metropolis, or for the maintenance was afraid that the discipline and character of that due state which ought to accom- of that army would materially suffer, if it pany royalty, for maintaining so large a remained five years in France, notwith

number, and therefore he was entitled to standing it was under the direction of that : be ww presume upon a reduction of one-half as extraordinary man, the duke of Wellingof the genes practicable. The next item was the foot ton, and other eminent officers. in their jo guards. In 1791 they amounted to 3765, With respect to the 25,000 for Great

now they were 7185. He should wish to Britain, he had followed the noble lord member to

bave some explanation respecting them through all his statements with the greatest He believed that a reduction to the attention, and yet he could not see the extent of 5000 men might take place in necessity for so large a force, merely to those two items. The dragoons in 1791 guard our arsenals, dock-yards, and depots.

consisted of 13 regiments upon the British Why might not the new kingdom of Chatd to put to establishment, or about 3037 men; that ham (to use the expression of an lion. he chair, he certainly considered as too low; now member) be confided to the protection of

there were to be 17 regiments, making the artillery? Besides, there were 9,000 12,567 men, and that he thought as much marines already voted, and if economy and too high as the other was too low. It retrenchment were really the objects of seemed, however, that they were to be the government, he was sure they would

employed in collecting the revenue, and be found as efficient for the protection of be thousand if so, it would be their utter ruin, as he those stations as troops of the line. With the House could not conceive any duty more fatal to respect to the garrisons in the Mediter

good discipline. They would not only be ranean, Gibraltar, Malta, and the Ionian distributed into small parties, but they islands, for which 11,000 men were to be would also be exposed to the temptation provided, he should like to know why we

of frequent intoxication, a vice which was were to keep up a war force in those garruing to DV already but too prevalent in the British risons during a period of profound peace? and because as army. 5. He should think that half the As to Gibraltar, it was to be recollected vie part oil proposed number would be sufficient, and that the Spanish lines were destroyed, and

he should prefer reducing the establish- no danger was to be apprehended from

ments of the regiments, rather than the the Spanish government, except to its own Wha, on a regiments themselves. In looking to the subjects. That fortress had frequently

infantry of the line, the total kept up in beed left with only 3000 men during war, ito be manier 1791 was 103 regiments, and now they and considering the present state of our e reducting it by amounted to 157, including the West naval power, he should consider that to

India regiments, the garrison battalions, be a sufficient number now. Malta was the rifle corps, the waggon train, and the one of the strongest places in the world. staff corps. As a question of patronage It could not be attacked at all without a alone, he should object to so large a force, superior navy, and that circumstance, and he thought the project was one which united with the affection of the inhabitants deserved the most serious attention of the for our government, certainly diminished House, not only on that ground, but be the necessity for so large a force there. cause he did not conceive that the per- In the Ionian islands he should consider formance of any military duties could 1,000 men to be quite enough, for there require the whole of those establishments. too we were told, that the inhabitants were In arguing upon the different stations most anxious to come under our protec

1 of the estimasi ber of messa account of

unt of tone

_

tion, and besides, there was already a he understood it was one of the most im-
large fortress in the island of Corfu. Upon pregnable places in the ocean, and as it
the whole, be conceived that a total re- was no great distance from our East
duction of 3000 men might take place in Indian possessions, or from the Cape, rein-
the force assigned to the Mediterranean, forcements might easily be supplied if
with perfect safety to our possessions necessary. He did not see, therefore,
there. With regard to the West Indies, why a garrison of two battalions, or about
it was true that our possessions there were 14 or 1500 men, would not be sufficient
more numerous than at any former period, for that place. With respect to the float-
but it was also true our security was ing force which was to be kept up for
greatly advanced by the possession of St. reliefs, he thought it should be wholy
Lucie. That was considered, by all pro- struck out of the establishments for the
fessional men with whom he had conversed different stations, because it would be
upon the subject, as a most important taken out of a fund, which would always
military position. He thought that two exist as a permanent part of the general
or three ships of the line, (and he hoped system. The aggregate amount of his
our navy was not entirely to be forgotten), proposed reductions would be 25,000
stationed in the West Indies, would pre- men, thus reducing the 99,000 to 76,000,
clude the necessity of so large a force. and that reduction, estimating the expense
Besides, a quick relief might be afforded at only 50l. per man, though with respect
from Canada, upon any emergency, and to men on foreign service, that was 100
in that view, as well as considering the low an average, would produce a saving
nature of that frontier at present, he was of at least 1,150,000l. exclusively of the 1
not disposed to regard the intended force army extraordinaries. At all times such
for that settlement as too large. A reduc- a sum would be a great object, but at the
tion to the extent of four or five thousand present moment it was of infinite import-
men, might, he thought, be made from ance. The whole country was inflamed.
the establishment for the West Indies.- upon the question of a property tax or a:
With respect to the garrisons for the Cape, loan; but by that saving they would have i
the island of Ceylon, and the Mauritius, at once the interest of a loan for four ozu
he thought they were immensely over- five years.
stated. As to the Cape, it was a matter He should now call the attention of the
of doubt with him, whether it might not House to a most extraordinary item. He
as well belong to some other power; but meant the general and staff officers, who
at all events, what occasion had we for so were still to be employed; and he was
large a force there? What had we to fear, astonished to find that they amounted to 38
or to oppose, except an army of dull and general officers for the different stations in
slothful Hottentots, as was justly observed Great Britain and Ireland. Upon what
by an hon. member on a former evening ? ground such a number was to be kept up,
He really could not see the necessity he was utterly at a loss to conceive. In
either for a garrison of 3000 men, or for Ireland there were to be 22 general otä-
a governor with 20,0001. a year salary. A cers, but surely unless they were to be
force of 2000 he should be disposed to retained for some other purpose, no man
consider as sufficient. In Ceylon he was would venture to say, they were necessary
afraid, from peculiar circumstances, the for the service of Ireland. They ought
force could not be much reduced; but to be diminished to a considerable extent.
still it might be a little, and looking at the The staff at head-quarters, by which, of
whole question as a question of money, course, was understood the horse-guards

, however little could be saved, that little was also too extensive, -He would nest ought to be saved. He was of opinion, advert to what the noble lord had termed however, that a reduction of 500 men the dead weight, and which the noble lord could take place. Of all the garrisons had attributed to the administration in appointed to the different stations, that of which he (Mr. Calcraft) acted a subordithe Mauritius was the most surprising. It nate part. This originated in the plan of had been stated, indeed, that the popula- a right hon. gentleman, of whom he must tion of the place was disaffected; upon ever speak with sentiments of the highest that subject he could say nothing, for he esteem and the deepest regret. It seemed did not even know what the population that an annual charge of 1,300,000l. was amounted to, though he had made many attributed to the excellent plan of Vr. inquiries, and consulted many books. But Windham. But from this ought to be des