I might say that the payments of the certificates depends on our getting the maximum payments from Germany on account of the mixed claims payments and the army of occupation payments. The certificates will not be paid, naturally, by the Secretary of the Treasury until those funds are received in the Treasury. Mr. CHINDBLOM. The estimate on an eight-year period to make payments to American claimants assumes the maximum payments from Germany? Mr. DEWEY. Yes. Mr. CHINDBLOM. What are you getting now? Mr. DEWEY. We have the unallocated interest fund which has been mentioned. Mr. CHINDBLOM. What are the payments under the Dawes plan that we are getting now? Are we getting the maximum now? Mr. DEWEY. We have not received any, yet. There are about $8,000,000 in round numbers held in Germany for our account. That is a matter for the agent general of transfers over there to convert into dollars and pay to us. He has the last word on that. We can not force him to pay it, because he might make the statement that it would upset the exchange. We have a credit at the present time of $8,000,000. The tables that were offered by Mr. Winston in prior hearings set forth the amounts to be received in various years to come. Mr. CHINDBLOM. They are on what page? Mr. DEWEY. They are on page 46 of the hearings. Mr. CHINDBLOM. Before the subcommittee? Mr. DEWEY. Before the subcommittee. Mr. GARNER. Mr. Dewey, this bill contemplates appropriating 55,000,000 marks coming to the United States in payment for the Army of occupation, and applying them according to the terms of this bill. Mr. DEWEY. Yes, sir. Mr. HADLEY. If Congress should adopt this policy, is the machinery which the bill sets up adequate and practicable for giving effect to such policy? Mr. DEWEY. In our hurried consideration of the matter, we believe that it is, sir. There might be some slight changes that would be necessary, but as the bill sets it up, so far as we can see, the machinery is there to carry out the directions as contained in the bill. Mr. TREADWAY. Does that express also the opinion of the Treasury Department, that this bill presents a practical manner in which to handle the subject? In other words, are they approving this method? Mr. HADLEY. My question did not call for any expression of policy. You are going further into that? Mr. TREADWAY. Yes. Mr. DEWEY. I would hesitate to enter into the matter of policy. I believe that is up to Congress to decide. We can carry out the directions of the bill in this form if Congress decides this way. Mr. KEARNS. Under the Dawes plan we would get approximately $12,000,000 per year from Germany. Mr. HAWLEY. Under the Dawes plan there is to be allocated to the payment of the American claims 45,000,000 gold marks a year, which would be $10,710,000. Mr. KEARNS. For how long a period of time? Mr. DEWEY. Until all payments are made. Mr. KEARNS. For the army of occupation we get $12,000,000. Mr. GARNER. Fifty-five million marks a year until $254,000,000 are paid. Mr. HAWLEY. $13,090,000 a year. Mr. CRISP. Mr. Secretary, in principle, is there any substantial difference between Mr. Newton's bill and Mr. Mills's bill? Mr. DEWEY. Except for the portion that he read, the balance of the bill is quite identical, with the exception that it does not contain a certain number of amendments that were agreed to by Mr. Winston and the subcommittee in prior hearings. Mr. CRISP. But both bills propose to postpone payment of the indebtedness to the United States until these claims are paid. Mr. DEWEY. Yes, sir. Mr. OLDFIELD. The only difference, as I understand it, is that in the Mills bill, it does not provide to take any of this fund out of the Treasury that belongs to the Alien Property Custodian, or the German nationals as cash, and in this, Mr. Newton does propose to take this and pay some of the American claims. Mr. DEWEY. Both of them take the unallocated interest on the German fund. Mr. GARNER. The principal difference between the Mills bill and the Newton bill is that the Mills bill would settle the whole transaction at once and issue bonds for whatever is necessary. The Newton bill postpones it until you can collect this 100,000,000 marks per year from Germany. The CHAIRMAN. Both of them are clear, in that the money eventually come out of the Treasury, in the final result. Mr. DEWEY. I want to bring out one point that Mr. Newton did not stress, and that is that these American claims certificates are in no way public-debt obligations of the United States. It is very specifically stated that the United States shall assume no liability, directly or indirectly, for the payment of the principal of any such special certificates or interest thereon, and all such special certificates shall so state on their face. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Newton did state that and called our attention to it. Mr. DEWEY. I just wanted to stress it. Mr. GARNER. The bill does provide for taking 55,000,000 marks each year that would go into the Treasury for the benefit of the American taxpayers and apply them to the payment of these claims. Mr. DEWEY. That is correct. Mr. CROWTHER. Mr. Newton's suggestion was that this money had already been paid, and for some unknown reason we lost out and the Allies got it. Was that statement made in justification of the fact that we are going to use it now to pay these claims, or that we might use it, so long as it had already been paid? Did Mr. Newton offer that in justification? Mr. DEWEY. I could not answer what was in Mr. Newton's mind in making that statement. Mr. CROWTHER. Does the Treasury feel that there is any justification for it? Mr. DEWEY. I believe that in the records of the hearings at which Mr. Winston was present, that matter was brought up and Mr. Winston made a statement. I should like to refer the committee to Mr. Winston's statements in past hearings. Mr. HAWLEY. Mr. Dewey, suppose the American claimants are left for the settlement of their claims to the 45,000,000 gold marks to be paid yearly. What length of time will elapse before they will be paid? Mr. DEWEY. I believe that in past hearings it was estimated at about 80 years. Mr. HAWLEY. If we took the interest money in the Treasury and applied the whole amount we received from Germany of 100,000,000 gold marks a year, then the American claims would be extinguished in eight years? Mr. DEWEY. Eighty years, I said. Mr. HAWLEY. I beg your pardon. I understood you to say 8 instead of 80 years. Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Is it proposed by this bill to issue certificates payable only in case the money is received from Germany? It is not customary for the Government to issue securities with any such limitation or qualification, is it? Mr. DEWEY. I believe that there has been some precedent for it, but it is quite unusual. We do not wish to have any liability on the part of the Government whatsoever in connection with these special certificates or to have them increase the public debt. Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Do you recall what certificates were issued and for what purposes that had this qualification in them? Mr. DEWEY. We were discussing that. We have not had an opportunity to look it up, but I understand that during or shortly after the Civil War there was some such certificate issued. Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. To some extent, I presume the greenbacks were issued on that basis. Mr. GARNER. They were based upon one-fourth gold-$165,000,000, I believe. Mr. CHINDBLOM. Based on the credit of the Government. Mr. GARNER. There were four times that amount of greenbacks issued. Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Even at that, the credit of the Government, for what it was worth, was somewhat in question at that time. Mr. CHINDBLOM. And the gold reserve was only a part of the credit of the Government. After all, it was the credit of the Government. Mr. HADLEY. This is a question of dealing with a fund that is impressed with a trust, and the provision for limiting liability of the trustee is entirely consistent. I do not see the analogy of the greenbacks. Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. It is not entirely analogous. (Whereupon, at 12 o'clock noon, the committee adjourned.) 1 List Nos. 2289 and 3920 constitute only one-half of docket No. 487 since the other half (list No. 2283) was awarded and is entered in the list of awards. Date of dismissal 1924 Feb. 5 Do. Feb. 21 200,000.00 | Mar. 11 1264 3306 Biston Coffee Co. 1265 2725 Johann Carl Pflueger.. 1266 12296 Gaston, Williams & Wigmore Steamship 3,067.64 Apr. 4 7,652. 73 Do. 446. 58 Do. 400, 782.00 Do. 117, 287. 15 Do. 17,000.00 Do. 4, 171. 78 Do. 1,989. 09 1,989.09 Do. 233, 418. 54 233, 418. 54 Do. |