liquidation of this property if Congress saw proper, and applying its proceeds to the payment of these debts?

Mr. WINSTON. I was going to raise that point; that in determining the question of policy as to whether you will return this German property or not, the first point of importance is whether, as a moral question, you ought to retain it or take it, assuming that you have the legal right. The second is a legal question, as to whether, under the agreements you have signed, you still have the right to liquidate that property and use it to pay these debts, or whether, as you say, under the Berlin treaty, Congress has not confined itself to the power simply of holding it.

Mr. GARNER. Yes. Now, you say the department of Justice has been conferred with with reference to the provisions of this bill? Mr. WINSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GARNER. Have you asked the Department of Justice whether or not it would be legal for Congress to liquidate this property? Mr. WINSTON. I have not; no, sir.

Mr. GARNER. I presume we can get that opinion from the Department of Justice by asking them to come before the committee. Mr. WINSTON. I assume you might.

Mr. GARNER. That is a very important point, I think, in the consideration of this bill; what power Congress has over this alien property at the present time; whether to retain it indefinitely or, as you say, for 80 years, or whether they can, if they desire, liquidate the property.

Mr. WINSTON. There is a second legal question involved, which was brought up by a brief which I saw on your desk.

Assuming that we have the right, under our war powers, to confiscate this property and use it as we please, the war being over, does not the Constitutional provision apply, and say that we can not confiscate private property without paying compensation for it? In other words, that is not a question of the Berlin treaty or something that we have signed; it is a queation of our own Constitutional law.

Mr. GARNER. Mr. Winston, you have spoken only of France and England. Of course, England has no constitution. I am not familiar with the French. But do you know of any of the Allies that have paid the German nationals for their property?

Mr. WINSTON. My information on that, Mr. Garner, is not sufficiently accurate to permit me to make a statement. But my impression has been that the other nations generally have taken this private property and applied it on Germany's debts, and that Germany has made some reparation to its own citizens, but it has been entirely inadequate. The State Department could probably give you the exact situation.

Mr. HAWLEY. Mr. Winston, is not the Constitutional provision along that line further complicated by the fact that the Government of the United States can take private property only for public use? Whether it can take private property for the payment of claims of private citizens would raise another question.

Mr. WINSTON. I suppose that is true, too.

Mr. GARNER. Mr. Winston, if Congress desired to obviate the Constitution in that particular, it could liquidate the property, put

it in the Treasury, and then pay the citizens, which would accomplish the same thing.

Mr. WINSTON. I do not know whether that is a public use.
Mr. GARNER. It is a public use to put it into the Treasury.

Mr. RAYBURN. I was trying to find out a little while ago what the position of the Government is on this bill. Your position is, as I understand it, that you would not indorse the confiscation of private property for the satisfaction of public obligations?

Mr. WINSTON. I would not; that is right.

Mr. RAYBURN. What I want to know is why you put these three propositions together, if that is not your position. Why is it that you make the return of this private property contingent upon some obligation that somebody owes to the Government?

Mr. WINSTON. I do not believe that the United States ought to follow, perhaps, as fine a policy as that, as honorable a policy as that, and then pay no attention to its own citizens. I do not think we should say to the Germans, "We are going to stand perfectly straight and treat you with absolute fairness," and then when we come to our own citizens, say, "You can take care of yourselves."

Mr. RAYBURN. The indefinite holding of property is confiscation, is it not?

Mr. WINSTON. We have the authority to hold it.

Mr. RAYBURN. I understand it. I am talking about the policy. Mr. WINSTON. I recognize that you can make a theoretical argument that if we are going to adopt this policy we ought to adopt it irrespective of anything else. That may be true; but practically, if the Congress is going to legislate on this subject, it ought to legislate on the subject as an entirety, and not just say, "We are going to do everything for the Germans," and then say, "We are going to do nothing for the Americans."

Mr. RAYBURN. Of course that is beside the question. I just wanted to know if you believed that this property ought to be held as security?

Mr. WINSTON. Well, it has been held as security.

Mr. RAYBURN. You thnk it ought to continue to be?

Mr. WINSTON. I do not think it should continue to be indefinitely. I think there ought to be a solution of these questions.

Mr. LEA. Is there any precedent for holding the American people responsible for claims against Germany; that is, in the practices between nations? Is there any precedent for such a payment as is suggested in this bill?

Mr. WINSTON. I think there has been something on that in connection with Spain. I am not quite sure. That is another matter about which I would like you to ask the State Department. I am not familiar with these international questions.

I would like to take up this bill, if it is convenient to the committee, and just run through it briefly, so that we can see what we are doing in the different sections.

Mr. HAWLEY. Mr. Winston, could you insert at this point in your remarks the portions of the Versailles treaty and the Berlin treaty that are pertinent to the settlement, so that we may have them all before us?

Mr. WINSTON. I will do that.

[Senate, Executive G, Sixty-seventh Congress, first session]

TREATY OF PEACE WITH GERMANY

GERMANY AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Considering that the United States, acting in conjunction with its co-belligerents, entered into an Armistice with Germany on November 11, 1918, in order that a Treaty of Peace might be concluded;

Considering that the Treaty of Versailles was signed on June 28, 1919, and came into force according to the terms of its Article 440, but has not been ratified by the United States;

Considering that the Congress of the United States passed a Joint Resolution, approved by the President July 2, 1921, which reads in part as follows:

"Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the state of war declared to exist between the Imperial German Government and the United States of America by the joint resolution of Congress approved April 6, 1917, is hereby declared at an end.

"SEC. 2. That in making this declaration, and as a part of it, there are expressly reserved to the United States of America and its nationals any and all rights, privileges, indemnities, reparations, or advantages, together with the right to enforce the same, to which it or they have become entitled under the terms of the armistice signed November 11, 1918, or any extensions of modifications thereof; or which were acquired by or are in the possession of the United States of America by reason of its participation in the war or to which its nationals have thereby become rightfully entitled; or which, under the treaty of Versailles, have been stipulated for its or their benefit; or to which it is entitled as one of the principal allied and associated powers; or to which it is entitled by virtue of any Act or Acts of Congress; or otherwise.

"SEC. 5. All property of the Imperial German Government, or its successor or successors, and of all German nationals, which was, on April 6, 1917, in or has since that date come into the possession or under control of, or has been the subject of a demand by the United States of America or of any of its officers, agents, or employees, from any source or by any agency whatsoever, and all property of the Imperial and Royal Austro-Hungarian Government, or its successor or successors, and of all Austro-Hungarian nationals which was on December 7, 1917, in or has since that date come into the possession or under control of, or has been the subject of a demand by the United States of America or any of its officers, agents, or employees, from any source or by any agency whatsoever, shall be retained by the United States of America and no disposition thereof made, except as shall have been heretofore or specifically hereafter shall be provided by law until such time as the Imperial German Government and the Imperial and Royal Austro-Hungarian Government, or their successor or successors, shall have respectively made suitable provision for the satisfaction of all claims against said Governments respectively, of all persons, wheresoever domiciled, who owe permanent allegiance to the United States of America and who have suffered, through the acts of the Imperial German Government, or its agents, or the Imperial and Royal Austro-Hungarian Government, or its agents, since July 31, 1914, loss, damage, or injury to their persons or property, directly. or indirectly, whether through the ownership of shares of stock in German, Austro-Hungarian, American, or other corporations, or in consequence of hostilities or of any operations of war, or otherwise, and also shall have granted to persons owing permanent allegiance to the United States of America mostfavored-nation treatment, whether the same be national or otherwise, in all matters affecting residence, business, profession, trade, navigation, commerce, and industrial property rights, and until the Imperial German Government and the Imperial and Royal Austro-Hungarian Government, or their successor or successors, shall have respectively confirmed to the United States of America all fines, forfeitures, penalties, and seizures imposed or made by the United States of America during the war, whether in respect to the property of the Imperial German Government or German nationals or the Imperial and Royal AustroHungarian Government or Austro-Hungarian nationals, and shall have waived any and all pecuniary claims against the United States of America."

Being desirous of restoring the friendly relations existing between the two Nations prior to the outbreak of war:

Have for that purpose appointed their plenipotentiaries:
The President of the German Empire.

Dr. Friedrich Rosen, Minister for Foreign Affairs, and
The President of the United States of America

Ellis Loring Dresel, Commissioner of the United States of America to Germany, Who, having communicated their full powers, found to be in good and due form, have agreed as follows:

ARTICLE I

Germany undertakes to accord to the United States, and the United States shall have and enjoy, all the rights, privileges, indemnities, reparations or advantages specified in the aforesaid Joint Resolution of the Congress of the United States of July 2, 1921, including all the rights and advantages stipulated for the benefit of the United States in the Treaty of Versailles which the United States shall fully enjoy notwithstanding the fact that such Treaty has not been ratified by the United States.

ARTICLE II

With a view to defining more particularly the obligations of Germany under the foregoing Article with respect to certain provisions in the Treaty of Versailles, it is understood and agreed between the High Contracting Parties:

(1) That the rights and advantages stipulated in that Treaty for the benefit of the United States, which it is intended the United States shall have and enjoy, are those defined in Section 1, of Part IV, and Parts V, VI, VIII, IX, X, XI, XII, XIV, and XV.

The United States in availing itself of the rights and advantages stipulated in the provisions of that Treaty mentioned in this paragraph will do so in a manner consistent with the rights accorded to Germany under such provisions.

(2) That the United States shall not be bound by the provisions of Part I of that Treaty, nor by any provisions of that Treaty including those mentioned in Paragraph (1) of this Article, which relate to the Covenant of the League of Nations, nor shall the United States be bound by any action taken by the League of Nations, or by the Council or by the Assembly thereof, unless the United States shall expressly give its assent to such action.

(3) That the United States assumes no obligations under or with respect to the provisions of Part II, Part III, Sections 2 to 8 inclusive of Part IV, and Part XIII of that Treaty.

(4) That, while the United States is privileged to particupate in the Reparation Commission, according to the terms of Part VIII of that Treaty, and in any other Commission established under the Treaty or under any agreement supplemental thereto, the United States is not bound to participate in any such commission unless it shall elect to do so.

(5) That the periods of time to which reference is made in Article 440 of the Treaty of Versailles shall run, with respect to any act or election on the part of the United States, from the date of the coming into force of the present Treaty.

ARTICLE III

The present Treaty shall be ratified in accordance with the constitutional forms of the High Contracting Parties and shall take effect immediately on the exchange of ratifications which shall take place as soon as possible at Berlin.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the respective plenipotentiaries have signed this Treaty and have hereunto affixed their seals.

Done in duplicate in Berlin this twenty-fifth day of August, 1921.

ARTICLE 249 of Part 9 OF THE TREATY OF VERSAILLES WHICH PROVIDES THAT THE GERMAN GOVERNEMNT SHALL PAY THE TOTAL COST OF ALL ARMIES OF THE ALLIED AND ASSOCIATED POWERS IN OCCUPIED GERMAN TERRITORY, WHICH IS MADE A PART OF THE TREATY OF BERLIN

ARTICLE 249

There shall be paid by the German Government the total cost of all armies of the allied and associated governments in occupied German territory from the date of the signature of the armistice of November 11, 1918, including the keep of men and beasts, lodging and billeting, pay and allowances, salaries and wages, bedding, heating, lighting, clothing, equipment, harness and saddlery, armament and rolling stock, air services, treatment of sick and wounded, veterinary and remount services, transport service of all sorts (such as by rail, sea or river, motor lorries), communications and correspondence, and in general the cost of all administrative or technical services the working of which is necessary for the training of troops and for keeping their numbers up to strength and preserving their military efficiency.

The cost of such liabilities under the above heads so far as they relate to purchases or requisitions by the allied and associated governments in the occupied territories shall be paid by the German Government to the allied and associated governments in marks at the current or agreed rate of exchange. All other of the above costs shall be paid in gold marks.

ARTICLES 297 AND 298 WITH ANNEXES OF SECTION 4 OF PART 10 OF THE TREATY OF VERSAILLES, WHICH PROVIDES AMONG OTHER THINGS FOR THE DISPOSITION OF THE ENEMY PROPERTY IN THE POSSESSION OF THE ALLIED AND Associated Powers, and WHICH WAS MADE a Part of the Treaty of Berlin

ARTICLE 297

The question of private property, rights, and interests in an enemy country shall be settled according to the principles laid down in this section and to the provisions of the annex hereto.

(a) The exceptional war measures and measures of transfer (defined in paragraph 3 of the annex hereto) taken by Germany with respect to the property, rights, and interests of nationals of allied or associated powers, including companies and associations in which they are interested, when liquidation has not been completed, shall be immediately discontinued or stayed and the property, rights and interests concerned restored to their owners, who shall enjoy full rights therein in accordance with the provisions of article 298.

(b) Subject to any contrary stipulations which may be provided for in the present treaty, the allied and associated powers reserve the right to retain and liquidate all property, rights, and interests belonging at the date of the coming into force of the present treaty to German nationals, or companies controlled by them, within their territories, colonies, possessions, and protectorates, including territories ceded to them by the present treaty.

The liquidation shall be carried out in accordance with the laws of the allied or associated State concerned, and the German owner shall not be able to dispose of such property, rights, or interests nor to subject them to any charge without the consent of that State.

German nationals who acquire ipso facto the nationality of an allied or associated power in accordance with the provisions of the present treaty will not be considered as German nationals within the meaning of this paragraph.

(c) The price or the amount of compensation in respect of the exercise of the right referred to in the preceding paragraph (b) will be fixed in accordance with the methods of sale or valuation adopted by the laws of the country in which the property has been retained or liquidated.

(d) As between the allied and associated powers or their nationals on the one hand and Germany or her nationals on the other hand, all the exceptional war measures, or measures of transfer, or acts done or to be done in execution of such measures as defined in paragraphs 1 and 3 of the annex hereto shall be considered as final and binding upon all persons except as regards the reservations laid down in the present treaty.

(e) The nationals of allied and associated powers shall be entitled to compensation in respect of damage or injury inflicted upon their property, rights, or inter