locks, to facilitate the passage of boats, and an enlargement of the canal in its width and depth." In 1835 Governor Marcy again called the attention of the Legislature to the importance of this enlargement in his annual message. In January, 1835, a special report was made to the Legislature on the subject of this enlargement, in which the canal commissioners say that to secure the cheapening of transportation, by reducing the rates of toll and expenditures, the enlargement would be delayed and the business of the country, so rapidly increasing, would seek other channels and, with the tolls, be lost to the State." The Canal Committee of the Legislature to whom this subject was referred, reported favorably and in their report said: "The magnitude of the work and the present crowd of business upon the canal, make it necessary to commence it without delay. By doubling the locks and increasing the capacity of the canai for boats of 120 tons burden the charges for transportation will be reduced more than fifty per cent, exclusive of tolls, which would give a reduction of over twenty-five per cent in the aggregate expense, and the canal will be in a condition to accommodate more than four times the business." The bill for the enlargement of the Erie canal was passed and approved by the Governor in 1835 and the canal board in 1836 say that "the enlargement of the canal and locks to the proposed dimensions will lessen the expense of transportation exclusively of tolls about fifty per cent."

how this is. I find, sir, in looking at the reports on this subject which have been made, that in the year 1864 the canal board, in its report to the Legislature, stated that the Erie canal had, for the then past two years, nearly reached its maximum capacity for property seeking tide water. We should mark the language here. Not that in general its capacity had been reached, but that iu the two years immediately preceding 1864, for property coming from the West seeking tidewater, the capacity of the Erie canal had been nearly reached. But this year another report has been presented by the commissioners of the canal fund, in which they say that the greatest tonnage of the Erie canal has never been reached within twenty-five per cent of its capability. We have some testimony on this subject, however, which has been reported to this Convention, which ought to be considered by this committee in deciding this question, provided it be regarded as necessary to be decided, which I do not deem it to be. However, I propose to call the attention of the committee for a moment to the testimony of Mr. Wright. He was formerly a canal commissioner, a man of great ability in the discharge of his duty as canal commissioner, and who, for a long time before he held that office, was much engaged upon the canals in business. He was asked, in regard to the capacity of the canals as they now are, and the business of the present season. It is well known to the committee that the business that comes upon the Erie canal from Now, sir, I appeal to this committee and I ask the Western States is principally in the fall, and that the same spirit may animate its members, it arises from this state of facts, which I know that did those distinguished men who directed from my own observation, both on the canal and the affairs of the State in 1835; and I claim that from an intimate acquaintance with some of in that spirit and confidence, after the main part those producing regions of the West. If there of this work of enlargement has been finished, after is a good market for their breadstuffs at the the prism of the canal has been completed for a disclose of the harvest, every western farmer is anxtance of more than three hundred miles we ious to gather his harvest as soon as possible and shall not refuse for this still increasing volume of send it forward to market. And what is true of trade, to allow similar appropriations to enlarge one is true of all. The whole country is moved its accommodations and cheapen its transit. That by one impulse to press forward their breadstuffs having enlarged the prism of the canals, we by to market and to get them to the Erie canal at enlarging the locks to conform to its size may Buffalo before the month of October. Hence it enjoy the full benefit of what it was originally comes that during the busy season we find, pressintended the enlarged canal should confer. Sir. ing forward through the Erie canal, a large pormuch has been said in this discussion with regard tion of the surplus product of the Mississippi to the present capacity of the canal, whether valley urging its way as fast as practicable to really, up to the present time, the capacity of the market. This part of the season is noted genercanal has been equaled by the volume of trade ally by those who are acquainted with the canal which is pressing upon it. In my view of that as the season of great pressure of business upon subject, sir, I do not think it by any means an in- the canal. Hence in speaking of that business in dispensable matter of fact, to be settled by this the year 1862, in which this gentleman was Convention. Some testimony was received by a commissioner, he was asked "was there the Committee on Canals bearing upon this sub-at times more than you could do?" ject. We have reports, too, from our officers He said, "I will tell you the fact in regard to intrusted with the administration of the affairs these detentions which Mr. Breed alludes to;" of the canal; and there seems to be, both among (another witness) "this large number of boata these and among the witnesses who have testi were there sometimes, but the men worked at it fied in reference to this matter, some diversity of so energetically and faithfully that the boatmen opinion with regard to the exact points reached were satisfied, and I reported that there was no by the volume of trade in reference to the material detention; still every mouth in the capacity of the canal. I voted this morning year, at some time, you could stand and count most cheerfully for the proposition that an from ten to one hundred boats waiting to be examination should be had on this subject locked through.", Another gentleman was examby a very able and intelligent officer of the State; ined by the special committee sent by this Confor I desire to have this question. if it can be, ex-vention to Syracuse for the purpose of making an actly solved. I would be happy to learn, in fact, 'examination at the lock at that place, which re

Let

ceives the boats from all the canals west of it,, permit it to be hampered, to be restricted of its embracing the Oswego canal. This was Mr. Dele-rights, to be set back and driver upon other and mater, who has been there for seven years act-competing routes. We should now resolve upon, ing as lock-tender. He states, in reply to the and adopt some measures-I do not say whatquestion, "What would you think was the long. to accommodate it when it shall reach us. est time when there were boats waiting here me briefly, in contirmation of this proposition, call steadily for lockage?" He replied. "about a week the attention of the committee to some interesting and that this was in November." He then goes facts. They show that rapid increase of the trade into some statistical details to confirm his state- which we desire to receive and retain. Sir, in ment with regard to the detentions. Another 1826, the first year after the Erie canal went into gentleman, whose testimony was deemed by the operation, the amount of tolls was only $844 508; committee of great importance, Mr. Littlejohn, in the year 1866 the amount of tolls was $4,253,has been over thirty years a practical forwarder. 224, an increase in that period of more than five His attention has been called to the subject over times the amount in 1826. And before 1866, in and over again. This gentleman states that there the year 1863, which has been stated by some were detentions, that the detentions were of the gentlemen to have been an exceptional year, by most serious character, and that they occurred reason of the turning of the trade over the Missisjust in the latter part of the season, when ippi river this way the tolls rolled up to the the volume of trade from the west was greatest, magnificent sum of over five millions of dollars. Sir, as I said before, I am not here to measure the But let us look back only to the short period of exact degree of this detention. I do not stand ten years. Ten years back, in 1856, the amount before this committee to prove by this testimony. of tolls was $2,721,740; in 1866 it was $4 253,220, whether the detention was a week, or was a sin-just about double. How was it with the tonnage? gle day. My object in recurring to the testimony We find that in the year 1837 the amount of tonis to show that by the testimony of men well age upon the Erie canal derived from the acquainted with the state and progress of Western States was 856,225; while that gathered business on the Erie canal, there are times from the State of New York was $351,251; when there are detentious from the very great-howing the large preponderance, at that tirue, of pressure of business, and so far, we may fairly trade from our own State, of five times the amount conclude that the report of our officers having of trade derived from the State of New York, charge of the canals is correct, and the state of brought on our canals, over what was derived navigation on the Erie canal is as they stated to rom the Western States. And the trade from us in 1864 and that, for several years previous the State of New York continued in the ascendto that, the volume of trade had nearly or quite aut for ten years, down to the year 1847, when it reached the capacity of that canal. But sir, if ell below the Western trade some $300,000-the we were to lay the report of 1864 out of con-rade from the West on the Erie canal being sideration, and take the statement made in the 912,000 tous, and that from this State being report of the commissioners of the canal fund to 618,000 tons. And in 1860, the year to which the Legislature the year that the volume of trade we look for the last comparisons on this subject, had come up to near 25 per cent of the capacity the trade in tonnage from the Western State was of the caual, still the question before this com- 2,235,716 tons; and only 287,948 tons derived mittee is not varied. It is not a question of exact rom this State, eight times more tonnage carried calculation how long we can stand still and wait upon the Erie canal, derived from the Western for this growth of trade at the West; how long States, than was derived from this State. I now we can refuse to provide the accommodations state, as the opinion of those who are most condemanded of us; whether we shall wait until the versant with the workings of our canal system, tide of increasing trade shall have risen to its that we are to rely in the future mainly upon the height, and shall be beating at the very gates of trade that shall come to us from the rich and commerce for the purpose of easy transit. No growing States of the West and North-west; aud prudent man, no man who seeks the prosperity of that if we relied only upon the tolls to be gatherthis commerce, would ever desire that. Heed from our own State, it would suffice barely to would look forward to the tide of trade as it was defray the expenses of the care, maintenance, coming; he would anticipate its arrival; he and ordinary repairs of our cauals, even if it would with all proper appliances entice it this would do that. Sucl: being the source, then, way, and when it came, he would be prepared, from which we are in the future to derive our with improved accommodations, to receive it and trade, let us inquire whether we can rely upon carry it to its ultimate destination. Such was the that source, whether we can justly expect in the policy of those who resolved upon and executed future, as it has been in the past, this vast aud the enlargement of the prism of the caual in growing acquisition of trade on the canal, to be 1835; such should be our policy now. And derived from the Western and North-western whether we have exactly reached that point States. This is our reliance; we must have faith where the volume of produce coming from the in the future. We must believe in the growth of West is found to press upon the capability the trade of the West; and we must determine of the canals or not, we are assured, as that our canals shall be ready in capacity and in I shall show this committee, that it is soon all the conveniences of navigation to receive it. to come. It is therefore our true policy to be ready to receive it. Sir, this trade is soon to come, and to come in such volume that we shall be compelled, if we do not prepare for it now, to

We must have some of that faith and some of that boldness, at such a juncture of our affairs, as animated those patriots who tirst projected this system of internal improvements, the men of the

day of Clinton and Morris; the men who even in that infant state of our country, when we were feeble, when our rescurces were small, when they were compelled to go even to the general govern ment and beg of them assistance in doing the work they had resolved upon, still had faith in the future, and still believed that this work would be what it has turned out to be, the great avenue of trade not only from the western part of this State, but from the great West itself. It is refreshing at this time, when intelligent men, members of this Convention, express the opinion that we should leave these canals to take care of themselves, should only see that they are kept in ordinary repair, should only provide for their ordi. nary care and maintenance, and who claim that the day has gone by in which we can make any great advance, in canal navigation, to recur to the opinions of those men who designed, this great system and to find that they entertained wiser and bolder views. I wish to call the attention of this committee for a moment to an extract of a letter of Gouverneur Morris, which was written as early as the year 1808. The historians of that period inform us that he was so full of faith and confidence in this project of connecting the waters of the great lakes and the Hudson that he was almost set down as a visionary enthusiast. I will soon show you that even this wild enthusiasm, as it was then thought to be, has been more than realized. He says, writing to a friend in Europe, in 1808:

"Shall I lead your astonishment up to the verge of incredulity? I will. Koow, then, that one-tenth part of the expense borne by Great Britain in the last campaign would enable ships to sail from London through the Hudson river into Lake Erie. As yet we only crawl along the outer shell of our country. The interior excels the part we inhabit in soil, in climate, in everything. The proudest empire of Europe is but a bubble compared to what America may be-must be."

And, sir, he relied upon this great avenue of trade, which we seek here to defend and sustain, as the main instrument in reaching that glorious position. But he did not stand alone. There were other men of our own State, also, who stood with him. In the years 1810 aud 1811, while yet this idea of internal communication was in its infancy, the Legislature of this State appointed a board of commissioners to examine the route. That board consisted of Gouverneur Morris, Stephen Van Rensselaer, Dewitt Clinton, Thomas Eddy, Peter B. Porter, Robert R. Livingston, and Robert Fulton. In their report they say:

what was in their view, an extreme case, they said, even if it should rise to fifty millions of dollars, that sum would not be more than one-half the value of the product which in a single year would float upon the grand canal they had then projected. And to-day, sir, after a little more than half a century from that period, what is the result? The value of the produce that was carried last year upon the canals of this State exceeded $270,000,000; more than half of which should be estimated as the value of the tonnage on the Erie canal alone. With the faith that these men had, let us consider the question before us. They looked to the same source for this trade that we are now to look. They were not disappointed; but their expectations were more than realized. I say to this committee 10day, relying as we do upon the same source of trade in the future, looking to the great West with its inexhaustible resources of wealth ready to spring into life and desiring to pour its riches into our lap, we have but to do as they did, under all the discouragements which surround us. Our indebtedness is large. But it is an indebtedness which the State can bear to-day better than it could bear the first large debt which was thrown upon it through the construction of the Erie canal. We have to-day more financial strength, greater resources, and the same sources of increased future revenue before us, unexhausted and still opening up every year by the steady progress of emigration, cultivation, and enterprise, in the great and growing West. Let us not then, at this time of largely increased financial strength, tail in the acquisition of the prize, although it may cost us a few millions of dollars, a small ex pense compared with the amount the fathers of our canal system were willing at that early period to expend for its acquisition. I am disposed to rely upon the view presented to the people of this State so ably by the Committee on Canals of the last Legislature. I beg leave to read to this committee a part of what they have said upon this subject:

"If we turn our attention to the States of the West and North-west, whose products find their best and most natural outlet to the ocean through the lakes and the Erie canal, we will see no indication that they are to remain stationary in the general progress. In 1860, the population of eight States, including Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan, was nearly 9,000,000, being an increase for the previous decade of 65.74 per cent. At the "The commissioners beg leave to observe that same rate of increase, their population in 1870 no supposable expense can bear an undue propor-will be 15,000,000, and in 1880, 25,000,000. They tion to the value of the work. Thus, were it (by have an area of 285,000,000 acres, of which not giving a loose rein to fancy) extended to fifty more than one-sixth has yet been brought under millions of dollars, even that enormous sum does cultivation. Their aggregate product in grain, on not exceed half the value of what, in all human this limited breadth of cultivated territory, was, probability and at no distant period, will annually in 1850, 310,000,000 of bushels, and in 1860, 557,be carried along the canal." 000,000. In 1850, they had 1,200 miles of railYes, even in that period of narrow finances and road, and in 1864, 12,000 miles in operation, and of limited experience in canal navigation, this no less than 18,000 miles projected. Astonishgalaxy of men, whose names will ever shed ing as these figures may appear, they are drawn the greatest luster on our history, did not from official sources entitled to the highest credit, hesitate to proclaim "that no supposable ex- and there is no reason to doubt either the facts pense can bear any undue proportion to the stated or the conclusions as to the future progress value of the work;" and by way of putting, of this fertile region, to which they unavoidably

lead. It is not extravagant to assume that with- In 1835, it had no shipping, or not an amount dein the next ten years, the surplus products of serving to be recorded. In 1866, its shipping these great grain producing States will tax to its exceeded 11,000 vessels of all kinds, entering and utmost the present capacity of every route to the leaving; and there were more than 93,000 seaocean, and that, unless the obstacles to its pro- men to man those vessels. In 1835, Chicago had gress are removed, it will find avenues to the sea- not a single railway. In 1866, it had nine large board by other routes. Extending the range of trunk railways, five of which were mainly occupied our observation beyond the States, just mentioned, in bringing the products of the prairie region we shall find a territory hitherto little known, into that city for transportation to the East; stretching west to the base of the Rocky mountains, and last year they brought, of the article of wheat and north to the limits of the United States. That alone, into the city of Chicago, now portion of it included in the territory of Dakotah the granary of the world, for the purpose alone, contains 240,000 square miles, an area suf of distribution, 11,952,000 bushels. In 1837, ficient to form three States as large as Minnesota. the shipments of grain amounted to 78 A system of railroads, starting from the head of bushels. In 1866, the shipments of grain amountLake Superior, and penetrating it to the distance ed to over 66,000,000 bushels. I might refer to of four hundred miles, would strike the upper other points, where the increase of the business waters of the Missouri, and with that river, form has been astonishing; but none I think which a magnificent line of inland communication hav- more truly picture to us the growth of the vast ing its eastern terminus at no greater distance region than does the growth of the city of Chifrom Buffalo than the cities on the southern shore cago. So that it appears that while the people of of Lake Michigan. In salubrity of climate, fertil- this State have been devoting their energies to preity of soil and accessibility to the great chain of paring the way for this great trade, by enlarging inland lakes, it is most favorably situated, and its the Erie and Oswego canals from 1835 to the rapid settlement is not more certain than that its present time, the trade itself has been so marvelproducts will find their way to the ocean, by one ously increased that we are now after a lapse of or more of the avenues that radiate from the foot only thirty-one years, called upon to make still of Lake Erie" further arrangements to enlarge our channels of trade for its reception. The question arises, what shall we do in the contingency which has arisen in reference to the most important interest of the State? It devolves upon this Convention to decide what shall be done. The Finance Committee have presented one plan, and the Canal Committee, present another. By the plan of the Finance Committee, the improvement of these canals by way of enlargement is substantially postponed until the entire remaining canal debt shall have been paid. It seems apparent to any one who will examine the provisions reported by the Committee on Finance, that it will require some fifteen

It being therefore evident that we must look to the Western and Northwestern States for the resources of supply to the business of our canals, and particularly of the Erie canal, let me ask this committee to inquire how rapidly it is necessary for us to move in order to be ready to accommodate this vast accumulation of trade upon our canals. I could state in general terms the rapidity with which the West is being settled and developing its resources; but I should fail by such generality to make the impression I desire upon your mind. I would rather refer to a single instance of that advance, which I think is illustrative as well as any other of the rapidity for twenty years, before that debt will be paid. the growth, enterprise and energy of that people Are we to lie still for fifteen or twenty years, whose trade we invite to our borders. I refer to and do nothing to meet the demands of this the city of Chicago; and I ask the attention of trade? Are we, because we owe some fifty or the committee for a moment, to see the rapidity sixty millions of dollars, to say, this is of so great with which the West is piling up with wealth, and so crushing weight upon the people of this and is accumulating its vast products to be trans- State that we must suspend all improvements, mitted to us, if we will but be prepared to re- and do nothing to improve or enlarge the Erie ceive them. I have before me the last published caual or our other public works until the debt is report of the board of trade of Chicago; and from pad? Must we shut the gates of commerce, that, an authentic document, I have made a few and, sitting quietly down, fold our arms and say we extracts to which I beg leave to call your atten will spend no money to increase our revenues in tion. In 1835, just the period when we were be- this direction, but will wait until this debt shall be ginning to prepare for this great increase of wes. paid by the revenues at present derived from the tern product. just when the people of this State canals? Or shall we do as those who have gone found that there was living at the distant West a before us have done, and follow the bright examgreat and growing people who would demand of ple which they have left? Seeing the prize before us an enlarged canal to transmit their products-them, they resolved that they would rely upon the at that time the population of Chicago was less finaucial strength of the State to meet the than 4,000. In 1866, it was over 200,000. In thirty-emergency; one years it had rolled up a population equal to the large capitals of the East, and to some of the large cities of Europe. In 1835, the tonnage of Chicago was nameless; so inconsiderable as not to arrest the attention of any one. In 1866, its tonnage exceeded two and a quarter millions of tons; two and a quarter millions entering that port, and two and a quarter millions leaving it.

shall we not adopt a similar policy now that we are to expend a few million dollars more to complete the enlargement of the canal? Shall we wait until this immense trade is pressing upon us, ready to pour its golden harvest into our treasury, before we attempt to prepare the necessary accommodation for it? Shall we leave it to find its way to other markets that will prize it more than we do?

Mr. ALVORD-I trust that will be given. Mr. BICKFORD-I shall object, unless it is understood to be confined to these two gentlemen, and that it is not to be extended.

Mr. FOLGER-I feel bound to object to both propositions.

Mr. ALVORD-For the purpose of testing this question in Convention, I move that the committee do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

The question was put, and upon division, the result was a vote of 33 to 25.

SEVERAL DELEGATES-There is no quorum.
The CHAIRMAN-There is no quorum pres-

The committee rose, and the PRESIDENT pro

Mr. SMITH, from the Committee of the Whole,

That is the question which is presented to this [ given to Mr. Tilden, of the Finance Committee, to Convention. What is it that the Committee on occupy also another hour. Canals propose to do? How do we meet this question? We propose to do it, not by asking the people of this State to vote a large additional debt. It has been suggested for a year or two past, by some very discriminating and very able men, to whom I would be willing under other circumstances to refer, that we should create an additional debt for this purpose. We feel confident that the people would not authorize that. I believe, however, that if we could not secure this great prize without encountering additional debt now, to the amount of ten or fifteen million dollars, it would be well worth our effort to do it. But this is not necessary. We find this condition of things. We find now that the canals, on which |ent. people of this State have mainly to rely to pay their aggregate debt, estimated by the chairman tem. resumed the chair in Convention. of the Committee on Finance, at nearly $10,000,000, exclusive of the county debt, are now pour-reported that the committee had had under coning into the treasury annually, and have been for sideration the reports of the Committee on Fthe last seven years, their millions of dollars of nance and on Canals, and upon a division, no net revenue. If you will take the trouble to look quorum being present, had instructed their Chairat the financial statement appended to the report man to report that fact to the Convention. of the Committee on Canals, you will find that we The SECRETARY proceeded to call the roll, can take that revenue now- -$3,000,000 a year-and the following gentlemen answered to their and apply it from year to year to pay the interest names: of our debt, and a part of it to meet about two Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen, millions of principal falling due, and still have Alvord, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, Baker, Barenough money left to complete all which is pro-nard, Barto, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bergen, Bickposed by the committee, and all that is necessary to be done to secure this increasing trade. I will not detain the committee by closely analyzing the financial statement annexed to the report of the Committee on Canals, but I commend it to their consideration; they will see that this is a practical way of meeting the demand on the resources of the State. All that we have to do, after applying these surplus revenues, is to borrow some five years hence about $3,500,000, on a deficiency Ioan, for the purpose of aiding in paying the Canal debts which fall due in the years 1873, 1874, and 1875; and about $1,600,000 to pay a portion of the general fund debt, falling due be fore that time, making between five amd six millions of dollars in all. The payment of this deficiency loan is also provided for in January 1879, out of revenues of the canals thereafter accruing.

The CHAIRMAN announced that the hour had expired to which each speaker was limited by the rule adopted this morning.

Mr. ALVORD-I will ask the unarimous consent of the committee that the gentleman from Rensselaer be permitted to go on with his remarks, and that he be allowed another hour, for the reason that he is a member of the Committee on Canals, and one of the sub-committee to which was referred particularly this branch of the policy of the State with reference to its canals. It is eminently proper under the circumstances that he should be permitted. at least for another hour, to go on and give us his views on that subject I trust, therefore, that there will be no objection. Mr. CHURCH-I certainly shall not interpose any objection myself; but if this consent is to be given to the gentleman from Rensselaer, I ask at the same time that unanimous consent may be

ford, Bowen, E. Brooks, E. A. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Cassidy, Church, Cochran, Comstock, Dugaune, C. C. Dwight, Endress, Folger, Fowler, Francis, Fuller, Garvin, Grant, Gross, Hadley, Hammond, Hand, Hardenburgh, Hatch, Hitchcock, Hitchman, Houston, Ketcham, Krum, Lapham, Larremore, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Mattice, Merritt, Merwin, Murphy, C. E. Parker, President, Prosser, Reynolds, Rogers, Roy, Rumsey, Seaver, Seymour, Sheldon, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, Stratton. Strong, S. Townsend, Van Cott, Verplanck, Wakeman, Wales, Weed, Williams-77.

Mr. WEED moved that the Convention do now take a recess until seven o'clock.

On that question a division was called for.

Mr. ALVORD-I do not desire a call of the house at this time, but I will ask the President, in the name of the Convention, to ask an officer of the house to go to the boarding-houses and see if he cannot get a quorum.

The PRESIDENT pro tem. -The Chair has already given that direction.

Mr. BELL-I move that the absentees be called.

The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The question now pending is upon the motion to take a recess until seven o'clock.

The question was put on the motion of Mr. Weed, and it was declared lost.

Mr. BARTO moved that the Convention do now adjourn.

The PRESIDENT pro tem.-That will carry the Convention over until to-morrow morning.

Mr. E. BROOKS-I call for the ayes and noes on the adjournment. That will bring a quorum. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered.