tence, neither had the woman made any representation on the subject; and therefore he had no opportunity of applying to the Crown. Some cases had, undoubtedly occurred under the Vagrant act, which he had deemed worthy of examination and interference; but of the case now under consideration, he knew nothing, and therefore he had not taken any steps respecting it. He wondered, however, that the hon. member should attack the discretion of the magistrates on this occasion; at the same time he admitted, that the subject was very proper to be inquired into, but not in this incidental manner. The petitioner was accused of an indecent exposure of his person; and, the fact having been sworn to, he was committed. Now, what did he allege against the witness in his petition ? He said, that watchmen were proverbial for their poverty, cupidity, and ignorance. Therefore, as it was a common proverb, that watchmen were distinguished by poverty, cupidity, and ignorance, no person ought to be convicted on the oath of one of them [A laugh!]. It was very well for the petitioner to explain his idea of the probity of those persons; but, if a watchman of good character swore before a magistrate that he saw persons offending against the law, the magistrate must of necessity convict. It was another matter, whether it was fitting that the magistracy should have such a discretion as that which they enjoyed under this act. That was a very different question. The hon. member had referred to the home department, with respect to the reward which was allowed for convictions under this act. Now, it was very true, that by the late act, the sum of 5s. was allowed: but by the former act, the reward was 10s. ; SO that there was a diminution, instead of an increase of reward, upon conviction. He, however, thought that this was not to be considered as a positive fine, to go to the minor officers of justice in all cases; and, soon after the passing of the act he had seen the magistrates, and had impressed on their minds, that it was a matter of discretion whether the fine should or should not be granted to the officer. It was for them, in exercising that discretion, to consider whether the individual had acted from a sense of public justice, or merely from a desire of receiving the reward; and he had directed them not to certify to the parish, in any case where the individual making VOL. X. the allegation seemed to be actuated by the desire of gain. Certainly, when the Vagrant act came under the consideration of the House,-although he knew the intention of the hon. member who brought it in was entirely to benefit the public, and the public, he conceived, ought to be much obliged to him-still there were some parts of it on which he meant to submit certain amendments; and particularly the clause relative to indecent exposure [Hear!]. He thought there was not a more flagrant offence than that of indecently exposing the person, which had been carried to an immense extent in the parks, where virtuous females had been shamefully insulted: but wanton exposure was a very different thing from accidental exposure. There ought, therefore, to be a more distinct and definite line drawn between exposure, the effect of accident, and exposure, the result of intention. At present, there was no discretion. On conviction, the magistrate must commit for a month. His' object was to invest the magistrate with a discretionary power, which would enable him to commit for a shorter period. Such an alteration might be effected without trenching on the principle. He agreed in the observation of the hon. gentleman, that great care ought to be taken in the selection of persons to act as stipendiary magistrates; and he must take some credit, both on behalf of his predecessor and himself, for acting on those principles which were likely to ensure a proper and efficient selection. Formerly, almost any individual was considered eligible for the office. But lord Sidmouth and himself had laid it down asa sine quâ non, that those who were placed in the situation of stipendiary magistrates should have practised three years at the bar, and must, therefore, enter on the duties of their office with a competent knowledge of the law. He never knew of any arrangement, with respect to the appointment of stipendiary magistrates, except that of selecting those persons who were the best recommended, and requiring that the parties should have practised at the bar. The hon. gentleman had commented on the conduct of some of those who held this situation, when acting in their magisterial capacity. He had introduced the names of Mr. Dyer and of Mr. Swabey. He thought it would have been as well, when the hon. gentleman had mentioned to him, that he would present this peti Ι purported to be the petition of William Lotcho, a labourer; and set forth, tion, if he had also stated, "I mean to introduce those cases, and I now give you the intimation, that you may have an "That the Petitioner is a young man opportunity of arranging what you may who has been bred up under an uncle as have to say on the subject." But, as a labourer; that, until the 8th of last these cases were not properly before the September, his sobriety, diligence, and House, he thought it would be as unwise honesty were never called in question, as it was unnecessary to notice them fur- nor his character impeached for any one ther; and therefore he would avoid that blameable act in the neighbourhood where topic. The hon. gentleman had observed, he was born and bred; that the Petitioner, that Mr. Dyer had taken moderate bail on Sunday the 7th of last September, paid from one individual, whilst he had refused a visit to a friend at Clapton, with whom to receive bail from another. But the he stayed till past eleven in the evening, hon. gentleman did not seem to have in- when, on passing through a thoroughfare quired as to the distinction that might called Angel Alley, on his way home to have existed between the cases. He had Essex-street, Whitechapel, he was acnot stated, whether the one case might costed by a female, who inquired of him not have been a misdemeanour, and her nearest road to Brick-lane, Spitaltherefore bailable; whilst the other might fields; that, while he was giving her the have come under the provision of a sta- required direction, the watchman came tute that was imperative on the magis- up, and, charging the woman and the trates. Now, he must contend, that in Petitioner with an indecent exposure of the case where bail was refused, the ma- their persons, took them both to the gistrate had no discretion to exercise; watch-house; that the petitioner, on the and, though in the other case the moral same day, was taken before sir Daniel offence might have been deeper and more Williams, knight, Justice of the Peace, degrading, yet the magistrate must deal sitting at Lambeth-street, Whitechapel, with it as the law directed; he could who, upon the single oath of the watchnot proceed to consider the moral dis- man, convicted the Petitioner, under the tinctions between crimes. As to the Vagrant Act, of being a rogue and committals by the magistrates, the prima a vagabond, and adjudged him, with the facie statement of the difference was very unfortunate woman, to one month's conimportant, and deserved inquiry. But, finement and hard labour in the House on account of its importance, the hon. of Correction, Cold Bath Fields; that gentleman ought to have given notice the Petitioner (with the woman) was that he meant to bring it forward. He accordingly committed on the same day to had not stated whether any of the com- the House of Correction, where he was mittals were in execution in a point confined until the next succeeding which was of great importance. He Thursday, during which time be was daily had merely said so many were com- compelled to work at the Tread Mill; in mitted, and so many convicted. But, the interval between Monday the 8th and supposing that a part of those persons Thursday the 11th, the friends of the were committed in execution, it was im- petitioner having been informed of his possible that there could be any subse- distressing situation, waited upon sir quent conviction. This was important to Daniel Williams, and from their reprebe considered, and the hon. gentleman sentation of his past conduct and chaought to have ascertained the fact. As, racter, he was, on the latter day, brought however, the hon. gentleman would, in from prison to Lambeth-street office, and the course of a few days, move for ac- was allowed, with two friends, to enter counts on the subject, it would be better into a recognizance to prosecute an appeal that the whole question should then be against the conviction; the Petitioner's debated. When the hon. gentleman appeal came on to be heard at the Quarter brought forward a distinct motion on the Sessions on Thursday the 4th day of last subject, he should be ready to meet it, December, when the conviction was and to give to the House every informa- quashed; the Petitioner humbly but eartion which could, with propriety, be call-nestly implores the attention of the ed for; as he could assure the House, House to the serious and crushing injuthat government had no motive what-ries of which he has to complain; in the ever, for mystery or concealment. first place the Petitioner solemny affirms The petition was then brought up. It that the oath of the watchman was wholly false, and a very slight attention to the | what had fallen from the right hon. secrefacts of the case must convince every tary. The petition averred, that the acreasonable man that nothing like indecent cusation rested on the statement of one exposure could possibly, in such a situa- man, and he argued, that his voice, in tion, have taken place; the offence was rebutting the accusation, was as good as sworn to have been committed between that of the person who advanced it: he twelve and one o'clock in the morning, in denied the correctness of the accusation a narrow, dark alley, when the inhabi- altogether. In what he had addressed to tants had retired to rest, when no win- the House, he begged leave to say, that dow-lights were to be seen, and when the he had not attached the slightest blame moon was only three days old; indeed to the Home-office. On the contrary, he the watchman distinctly admitted, on had observed that he believed every thing oath, that but for the light of his lant- to be properly conducted. As to the horn he should not have been able to course of proceeding which was to be perceive either the woman or the Peti- adopted when a motion or a petition was tioner; second, that the Petitioner was to be brought forward, if the right hon. not left in doubt as to the real motive of secretary wished to hear his (Mr. H's) his accuser, for, as the latter conveyed speech before he delivered it to the him to the watchhouse, he complained of House, he would readily oblige him. It being allowed no more than five shillings would, however, be somewhat inconvefor all his extra trouble; and the Peti- nient, if all the observations which must tioner is well persuaded that, had he necessarily grow out of such a subject possessed ten shillings at the time, he and were submitted to the right hon. secre the woman might have gone where they tary. With respect to the committals, pleased; the character and liberties of the individuals he had mentioned were British subjects being thus made to de- committed for trial. As to the case impend on the single and unsupported oath mediately before the House, they had, of a watchman, who belongs to a class of he thought, heard enough from the right men proverbial for their poverty, cupidity, hon. secretary to show that the individual and ignorance, is to reduce Englishmen had been hardly treated. The law, if to the alternative of either submitting to allowed to remain in its present state, was extortion or to the infamous labours of calculated to produce very great inconthe Tread Mill; third, that the Petition- venience. He would ask, in going through er, although innocent of any offence, has the streets of London, crowded as they been convicted, and branded with the were with females, whether one of themodious character of rogue and vagabond, selves might not be placed in the same by which he has been undeservedly sunk in situation as this individual? If any the estimation of those whose good opinion of them were asked by a woman to point it was his pride as well as his interest to out her road, he would not be much of a preserve; fourth, that the Petitioner gentleman if he refused that act of being too poor to prosecute an appeal politeness. The petitioner stated, that without assistance, is now indebted to he was so accosted, and there was no evianother person in the sum of fifteen dence to prove that such was not the pounds, advanced for that purpose, for fact. The right hon. secretary had adwhich the earnings of his daily labour is mitted, that the law wanted revision, and mortgaged for at least a year to come; he hoped the public would benefit by the while the unfortunate woman, destitute admission. of all pecuniary resources, was compelled to work out her month at the Tread Mill; the Petitioner having been thus injured in his character, and ruined in his circumstances, without being guilty of offence, humbly prays, That the House, which is constituted as the best refuge for the poor and the oppressed, will grant him such redresss and relief as to its wisdom and justice shall seem meet." Mr. Hume, in rising to move that the petition be laid on the table and printed, wished to make a few observations on Mr. Peel had never meant to say, that the petitioner's was an accidental exposure. There were some exposures which might be accidental: but, he thought, assuming the guilt of the petitioner[Mr. Hume-Assuming the guilt!"] -Yes, the hon. gentleman had assumed the petitioner's innocence on his own allegation. Now, assuming his guilt, he could not think he had been hardly dealt with. Ordered to be printed. STATE OF IRELAND.] Lord Althorp said, that perhaps some apology would be required of him, for calling the notice of parliament to a portion of the empire with which he had no connexion whatever. But he thought he had an opportunity of doing some good, by seriously applying himself to the consideration of the state of Ireland; and he felt that it was as much the business and the duty of English as of Irish members of parliament to use their utmost exertions for the benefit of the people of that country. He hoped, therefore, he should not be supposed to have travelled out of his line, in undertaking the introduction of this subject [Hear!]. It was his intention at a later period of the session, to submit a motion on the state of Ireland generally, and therefore he now called for certain papers which were intimately connected with that subject. The chief points on which he required information were the amount of the revenue of Ireland-the situation of the church, as to the number of resident clergymen and the mode in which the laws, allowing Roman Catholics to hold certain offices, had been executed, together with a specification of the offices which they were so entitled to fill. As to the revenue of Ireland, it might be said, that information on that head could be procured from the papers now before the House. But, every one must know, that unless it were brought together in a smaller compass for general observation, it would not be attended with that good effect which ought to be derived from it. If, therefore, there was no objection, he would move for "a return of the gross and nett amount of the revenue of customs and excise in Ireland, for two years, ending 5th Jan. 1824; distinguishing the different articles on which it was charged." He would next move for "a return of the amount of money levied by grand jury presentments, for the same period." To that he conceived there could be no objection, as those presentments formed a part of the charge of Ireland, and it was desirable that its extent should be known. The next point on which he would call for information respected the residence of the clergy. He conceived it to be impossible for any man to look to the state of Ireland, and not feel the necessity of having a resident clergy, If, as they must all be convinced, it was of great importance to have a good resident clergy in this country, it was infinitely more important, situated as Ireland was, that there should be an efficient resident clergy there. The landed proprietors in England were far more numerous than those in Ireland, and it was of primary importance, that men of fortune should be induced, as far as possible, to reside in the latter country, and to do every thing in their power to promote its welfare. He could quote the instance of a reverend person who had lately, and he believed very properly, been promoted to the see of Limerick, to prove the utility of a resident clergy. That reverend person, during his residence in his parish in Limerick, had acted so prudently, that notwithstanding the confusion which reigned around, no outrages had occurred in that particular parish. He was not at all acquainted with Dr. Jebb, the bishop to whom he alluded: but he knew that what he had stated was founded on fact. He should move for "a list of the parishes in Ireland, with the names of their respective incumbents, and distinguishing those where the incumbents were non-residents." Another point, and a very great one, on which he would move for information, was the state of the church property in Ireland. No person could suppose that he cherished any wish to weaken or overturn the church establishment of Ireland or England. On the contrary, in any arrangement which he could possibly propose relative to the church property in Ireland, his whole desire would be, not to injure but to benefit the church establishment. He, therefore, thought it very important to know what quantity of land was at present the property of the church; and with that view, he would move for "an account of the number of acres belonging to the church in Ireland, distinguishing such as form part of glebe-lands. His next motion would be for a paper to show how many Roman Catholics had been employed in those official situations which by law they were empowered to fill. By the act of 1793, there were only seven exceptions, with respect to offices which Roman Catholics might fill. All offices, but those specially excepted, they were eligible to hold. He wished, therefore, to have it stated, how many Roman Catholics had been appointed to those offices; because it would very much depend on the mode in which government had appointed Roman Catholics to such offices, whether that body were likely to be satisfied with the situation in which they were now placed, so far as related to the execution of the law in question. He should therefore move for "an account of the number of Roman Catholics appointed to the situation of assistant barrister in Ireland, with the dates of their appointments; and an account of the number of Roman Catholic barristers who have enjoyed patents of precedence in Ireland, for the last five years." ment were agreed to, founded, as it evidently was, on the argument, that some clergymen who resided but a month on their livings might be returned as regular residents, it would be casting a most undeserved stigma on the bishops of Ireland. The pains that had been taken by the government of Ireland to enforce residence, the division of parishes, and the appointing resident incumbents to do the duty of those cures which were formerly united, sufficiently proved the anxiety of the goThe account relative to the Irish reve-vernment of Ireland on this subject. nue, and that respecting presentments by Mr. Hume defended his proposed the grand jury, were ordered, without amendment, and denied that he was castobservation. On the motion, for an ac-ing any stigma on the bishops of Ireland. count of the number of parishes in Ireland, distinguishing those in which the incumbent was not resident, being put, Mr. Goulburn said, he did not rise to offer any opposition to the motion, because no person who had heard the sentiments uttered by him when the affairs of Ireland were under discussion last session, could doubt that he felt very deeply the importance of the residence of the clergy in Ireland, and that he was most anxious for the enforcement of that system. He had pledged himself, in a former session, to do every thing in his power, and the lord lieutenant had given him every assistance to enforce the residence of the clergy. It would be his duty, in a few days, to give notice to the House that he would introduce a bill, containing such provisions as he hoped would prove completely effectual for that purpose. Mr. Hume suggested the necessity of making some alteration in this motion. If carried as it was now worded, a clergyman might be returned as resident who remained only one month on his living, although he was absent during the other eleven. He wished the return to be made under four distinctive classes, specifying those incumbents who had been resident for 3, 6, 9, or 12 months. Mr. Croker did not know how a return of this kind could be made, without applying to each individual clergyman. If the clergyman resided long enough to satisfy the general law, he must be returned as a resident. The bishop could only take notice of those clergymen who did not comply with the law." As to the delicacy of calling for such an account, he thought the House ought to observe little or no delicacy in calling for returns. The amendment was withdrawn, and the original motion agreed to. On the motion for the papers giving the number of acres belonging to the church of Ireland, distinguishing the glebe lands, Mr. Goulburn doubted whether such returns could be produced under the present imperfect admeasurement of districts in Ireland. Sir J. Newport believed there was not a bishop in Ireland who could not tell pretty nearly what land he let to his tenants. The information, he thought, might be obtained without the smallest difficulty. The motion was agreed to. On the motion for a list of Roman Catholics appointed assistant barristers in Ireland, Mr. Goulburn asked how government should know whether persons were Roman Catholics or otherwise, unless in those cases where the law had imposed an oath? Mr. Hume said, that nothing was more easy than to put the question to each individual. Lord Althorp believed the return would be short. He thought no Roman Catholics had been appointed; but he saw no difficulty in making it. A man's religion, in Ireland, was as much a matter of notoriety as his profession. Mr. Croker was not sure that the paper called for might not be obtainable; but he knew that the state of the law as Mr. Hume observed, that the clergy- to religious profession in Ireland would men might make the returns. There throw serious difficulties in the way of were only 1,280 parishes, and one post other objects contemplated by the noble might carry out all the blank returns. lord opposite. The act of 1793 was the • Mr. V. Fitzgerald said, if the amend-only act which gave the means of ascer 2 |