collected through the fast freight line agency and he disburses the money!

Mr. GRAMMER. Yes; that is, he collects it from us.

Mr. DAY. And pays it to the shipper?

Mr. GRAMMER. Yes, sir. I have heard a question asked here of almost every person, as to whether or not the export rates can be published. It seems to me they ought to understand that very thoroughly. Theoretically it looks very nice, but it is a question whether it can be done unless a new situation obtains. I will explain that. If the rate on provisions from Chicago to New York is 27 cents and from Chicago to Baltimore it is 24 cents, very frequently the same ocean rate is in effect from Baltimore and New York, so a line competing by New York with a combination of rates, in order to get the business has to cut the rate 3 cents, and it is no unusual thing that a line working via Portland will make the rate via Baltimore. So, if you undertake in that case to publish the rate, you would have a different tariff on every shipment. So in theory it looks very pretty, but in practice it will not work. There is another solution. If a legitimate combination is really made through Baltimore that is lower than can be made by any other route, let the other roads stay out of the export traffic, and then it might regulate itself by the ocean carriers making a lower rate. That probably has been tried for years. It has never worked. Another thing about this export rate, making it 5 cents less than the domestic rate, the presumption was, and the instructions, that this rate should be billed flat wherever there was actually an export bill of lading issued under a through contract. That of itself insured the absolute delivery to the vessel, so it could not be diverted domestically. But there were a great many provisions that would be shipped to New York in care of the export agent, and there was evidence last spring of that being tampered with, so we adopted the plan that that property would be billed at the domestic rate and when it was exported it would be corrected back to the export rate. That prevented the manipulation of the export rate of domestic business.

Mr. DAY. This traffic on which you make concessions, when was the first concession made last year?

Mr. GRAMMER. I do not know exactly. We felt that the rate was absolutely maintained from the 1st of January.

Mr. DAY. Up to when?

Mr. GRAMMER. From the 1st of January up to about the 1st of March it was by a good many lines; by some it was not. Subsequently it developed our own shippers produced evidence that they were shipping by other roads for less money. Then the question came up whether we would settle with them. Those things are all bones of contention. It takes a long time sometimes to dispose of them. Our method is to try and do it without making a fuss. That business would be over our belt lines, and we would probably have it corrected through the billing. I do not think that was done prior to June.

Mr. DAY. You think that prior to June 1 your road absolutely maintained its published tariffs?

Mr. GRAMMER. No, I will not say that; but we came as near doing it as we have done any time in six months for the past several years. There were instances

Mr. DAY. You mean in instances you did meet the cut?

Mr. GRAMMER. Yes, sir. We are not the originating line. Where we get it from a connection we frequently join in that.

Mr. DAY. Take the instances where you are the originating line and met the cut prior to June 1, in whose behalf did you meet that!

Mr. GRAMMER. If we met any cuts then it applied to that particular business.

Mr. DAY. Who were they?

Mr. GRAMMER. Our principal houses were Armour & Co., Swift & Co., and Morris. They are the principal ones. We get none from Hammond. We have no connection with them.

Mr. DAY. How much concession was made in those three instances you speak of prior to June 1?

Mr. GRAMMER. I do not believe they had any concession given. There was a contention about it, but we had no agreed concession; but I think after June we settled on 5 cents a hundred.

Mr. DAY. That was done by correcting the billing?

Mr. GRAMMER. Correcting the billing.

Mr. DAY. You had no vouchers!

Mr. GRAMMER. No, sir.

Mr. DAY. Well, if you corrected the billing there must have been a refund?

Mr. GRAMMER. Well, they are large shippers, and we always hold some money of theirs.

Mr. DAY. Oh, you simply give them credit for it.

Mr. GRAMMER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DAY. Who approved of those credits!

Mr. GRAMMER. Wherever a matter of that kind is done the statement is made up and the auditor always has knowledge of it.

Mr. DAY. Where does he get his information!

Mr. GRAMMER. He gets his information through my office indirectly. Mr. DAY. In the form of written instructions?

Mr. GRAMMER. In a case of that kind I generally take the paper up to him and tell him that is correct. We are all in the same building. Mr. DAY. How long did you keep in this concession of 5 cents after you first put it in?

Mr. GRAMMER. We did not have a concession in until after June, and then on a flat billing.

Mr. DAY. How long did you keep in this flat billing?

Mr. GRAMMER. Until January 1st.

Mr. DAY. Twenty-five cents to New York?

Mr. GRAMMER. On provisions, 25 cents.

Mr. DAY. And fresh meats?

Mr. GRAMMER. Thirty-six and three-quarters cents,

Mr. DAY. Are you carrying now on those rates?

Mr. GRAMMER. No, sir; we have no agreement with any shipper in the world on anything.

Mr. DAY. Have you an understanding that if others do it you will conform to the rate?

Mr. GRAMMER. No, sir; I have made up my mind that in the future it will be on the open tariff and everybody will have to dance to that music. I am out of patience with that method of doing business. I know we will make no friends, but I am tired of it.

Mr. DAY. On export traffic that has its origin here, do you issue through bill to foreign ports?

Mr. GRAMMER. Yes, sir; that is done through our line office, fast freight line office.

Mr. DAY. You have your own lines of steamers↑

Mr. GRAMMER. Yes, sir; we have four lines working over the Lake Shore-the Red Line

Mr. DAY. I mean lines of steamers.

Mr. GRAMMER. No, we have no line of steamers. We work with the public steamers. We have a foreign agent at Boston, New York, and Philadelphia-contribute to his salary and he makes the contract.

Mr. DAY. Has your line participated in any arrangement during the past year by which traffic was taken at the going export rate plus the steamer rate and subsequently that rate was corrected and reduced by a division between the railroad company and steamship company? Mr. GRAMMER. No. I do not know anything about it. Commissioner CLEMENTS. Your road terminates at Buffalo! Mr. GRAMMER. At Buffalo.

Commissioner CLEMENTS. Do your connections east, respecting ship. ments of the kind you have testified about that originate at Chicago, participate in the shrinkage of the rate?

Mr. GRAMMER. Always. Whatever the rate is, they get their per centage.

Commissioner CLEMENTS. They get their percentage of the rate? Mr. GRAMMER. On the basis of the mileage, whatever the rate may be. Commissioner CLEMENTS. So they share in the shrinkage with you to Boston!

Mr. GRAMMER. To Boston, New York, and every point east of Buf falo, by every road.

Commissioner CLEMENTS. At what other places east of Chicago do you get products of this kind?

Mr. GRAMMER. The only place we have is Cleveland.

Commissioner CLEMENTS. How have the rates been there the past few years?

Mr. GRAMMER. The Cleveland situation is always a troublesome one with us, because we are hardly ever in the provision business here, and we endeavor to keep those people on a level with the Chicago basis. Commissioner CLEMENTS. Do they get a cut corresponding?

Mr. GRAMMER. Practically so, and we settle that by a correction of the billing.

Commissioner CLEMENTS. Do you know how it was in respect to your connections east in dealing with Buffalo!

Mr. GRAMMER. I do not know anything about that.

Commissioner CLEMENTS. You do not know whether they get a cut? Mr. GRAMEER. No, sir.

Commissioner CLEMEMTS. There are some packing houses there of some importance, are there not?

Mr. GRAMMER. I think not. There used to be one, but I do not think they amount to anything now. The Dold people were there. I do not think there is a house in Buffalo that does a regular packing-house business-export business.

Commissioner CLEMENTS. I do not mean export.

Mr. GRAMMER. I do not believe there is a house there now that amounts to much.

Commissioner CLEMENTS. Do you mean by that absolutely none or that they are not important?

Mr. GRAMMER. Well, I guess there may be two or three small houses but they are not a factor in the shipment. It is more a domestic question with them.

Commissioner CLEMENTS. Rate cutting from the west such as

described here to day would be very severe on them, little or big, unless they shared in it, would it not?

Mr. GRAMMER. I have no doubt that any house in Buffalo affected by that would be amply protected by eastern roads.

Commissioner CLEMENTS. Can you give a statement of all shipments over your road the past year showing the difference between the published rate and actual rate, whether adjusted by rebate or otherwise! Mr. GRAMMER. I think that could be done but I would have to have the consent of our attorneys and general officers to that effect. Commissioner CLEMENTS. It is a thing that can be done! Mr. GRAMMER. It is a possibility, yes, sir.

Commissioner CLEMENTS. And showing the amount borne by your connections east in each case?

Mr. GRAMMER. Showing the whole thing, yes, sir.
Commissioner CLEMENTS. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. That seems to be all.

The witness was excused.

Mr. DAY. I think I have called all the witnesses I have, your honors, that are present.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, I may say, for the information of those interested, that in the judgment of the Commission, it is not necessary to take any more testimony in this proceeding during this visit. Such witnesses as are in attendance will, therefore, be excused until they are requested to meet us at some other time and place; that is, in this particular investigation we have had up to-day, in the matter of rates on packing-house products. We will now adjourn.

At 5.20 o'clock the Commission adjourned.