A. I could give a run and jump at it. There has been expended some $820,000, as I understand it. I could not say. I can say this, however, from my experience as an architect, that they will expend all the money you will give them. That is about as definite as it can be put. I found from the few questions I asked in the office, that they had no definite idea what they were going to use, only in parts of the work; and until somebody knows just what is going to be done, etc., nobody can tell what it will cost. I talked with Mr. Piquenard, and others in the office then, about it. I asked what is this or that to be made of. One would say it is to be made of iron. Then I would ask another the same question, and he would say it was to be made of stone. "It is to be Inade of cut stone, if we can have money enough," would be the answer. In that rambling state no one can tell how much money will be expended. I can have the building finished up on those plans and expend all the money you will give me. And yet, I can carry out the general plans given them, (I have not examined the specifications carefully,) but so far as the general plans are concerned I can carry them out, and erect the building within the limits fixed by the Constitution.

Q. What will be the cost, in your judgment, of the building, if carried out in the way they have been going on, using the materials they have used so far?

A. There would be no difference in the appearance of the external finish how the internal portions were made, whether you make the door cases of wood, stone or marble, yet there would be a good deal of difference in the cost.

Q. Do those specifications provide what sort of finish it shall be ?

A I don't know. I did n't examine them. If I were going to erect a building I would inform the architects how much room I wanted, and tell them how much money I had to expend. Then let the plans be made and details all filled out, then let the contract be signed with reliable parties, then I would expect to know what my building would cost. I noticed they were revising the plans this morning. They did n't know just what they would use themselves.

Q. Just state, if you can, from the examination you made of the plans you saw, what that building will cost. Give your judgment of the approximate cost of the building when completed.

A. My estimate would be of no value to you at all.

Q. You think it can be built for the amount to which they are limited?

A. Yes, sir, but you can spend three times that amount of money.

Q. Did you meet Mr. Bolin-Starck over there to day!

A. No, sir, I did not see him there. I met him away from the building.

Q. Did you have any conversation with him about the measurement of those walls. Did he explain to you the manner in which he measured the work!

A. Yes sir, he stated to me the way he measured it. He measured it according to the specifications.

Q. State whether he was liberal in his measurements or not, if he measured it the way he told you.

A. You cannot be liberal; you have to confine yourself to the specifications. There was one point, however, I should have stretched the specifications in. My attention was called to a very large arch in the cellar, and then my attention was called to the specification with reference to the measurement of arching. I was informed by Mr. Bolin-Starck that he measured that arch solid, that he had simply taken out what would be the spandrel of the arch. That he had deducted that because it was filled with con crete, and that it had been measured up and paid for separately. But he measured the whole solid from the spring of the arch, and in that hole you can put 300,000 brick, or, I guess, 400,000 if you try. That I consider very liberal measurement. I think I should have asked some questions before making that allowance.

Q. What is your judgment as to his competency to make such a measurement, from your conversation with him.

A. He seemed to be intelligent and sufficiently familiar with such thing to measure the work.

Examinatiin by MR. ROBINSON, on behalf of the Commission

ers:

Q. You say part of the work is very good, and some bad?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. But the proportion you are not able give.

A. No, sir.

Q. But upon that portion which is bad you would rather risk

your judgment ten years from now; you mean by that it will hard. en and get better?

A. It may.

[Specimens of mortar attached to pieces of bricks shown.]

Q. Examine that mortar and see if that is good mortar. [Witnees examines the mortar.]

A.

Yes sir, that appears to be good mortar.

Q. Speaking of the brick itself, separate from the mortar, are they a good quality of brick?

A. Yes, sir, they seem to be very good brick.

Q. You say the brick work in the basement is very good?

A. Yes, sir, I examined some that was very good.

Q. There was some portion of the west walls that did not appear to be good work?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. But the proportion you are not able to give?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know about what it was worth last year to lay those brick in the wall, finding the lime, sound brick, and all the materials, and put in the wall?

A.

I don't know what your prices are here for men, sand, etc. Q. What was it in Chicago last year, say in the fall?

A. They ranged about at $13 00. I believe that would be a fair average laid up in the wall.

A.

Q. Did you examine the brick work upon the west side of the building sufficiently to tell whether there was any cement in it? I should say there was no cement in it at all. I examined it very carefully, because I was surprised to find it as it was. Q. Is there any cement used in that mortar? [Referring to brick lying upon the table.]

A. That is what I would call, in Chicago, good lime mortar. That is a good deal better than that in the west wall.

Q. Did you examine that large hole upon the west side that has been cut through one of the cross walls?

A. Yes, sir.

Q.

A.

parts.

How was that work then? Good or bad?

My recollection is, that it seemed to be better than in other

Q. What manner of examination did you give? Did you go upon the top of the walls, or did you just stand up beside the walls?

A. I went upon the top and examined it from the side also. I cut into it with my knife.

Q. Is there any better way to examine them than to cut into the walls?

A. No, sir; that is as good a way to do it as any.

Q. You stated that your judgment would not be worth anything as to the amount it would take to complete the building.

A. I could give a judgment, but it would only be my idea. The only way you could get an intelligent answer to that question would be, to look at the complete specifications, and know just what was to go into the building. No one can give an intelligent idea until the plans are completed and parties are prepared to do the work. If the plans are made ont complete-all the deta 15 and specifications—a man can have a pretty good judgment as to the cost. If a man knows just what he wants he should be able to decide the cost to a cent.

Q. Do you know Barnard, Carter and Decker as architects and builders?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is their reputation ?

A. Their reputations are good; as good as we have in Chicago. Q. Suppose those men made complete plans and specifications, figuring as to the cost of a building, would you have any faith in them?

A. I would have confidence in them, but I would rather have contractors do the figuring, because architects have not the requisite intelligence upon it to make estimates.

By Mr. MOMILLAN:

Q. Do you know whether that sand was washed before it was used?

A. I should think it was used in the wall without being washed.

GEORGE O. GARNSEY, sworn.

MONDAY, May 29, 1871.

Direct Examination-By Mr. ROBERTS.

Q. What is your name, residence and business?

A. George O. Garnsey: I live in Chicago, and am an archi

tect.

Q. How long have you been in this business?

Q. Do you know the architects of the new State House, Piquenard and Cochrane ?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long have you known them?

A. Mr. Piquenard a year, not intimately; have known Mr. Cochrane four or five years.

Q. Have you examined the walls of the new State House? A. I have.

Q. You may just state what sort of a job you consider the brick work in those walls?

A. Well, sir, some of it I find very good; in the sub-basement I find the brick work a very good job.

Q. That means the cellar?

A. Yes, sir; almost all the brick work in the west wing, in the basement of the building, I should pronounce not first-class work.

Q. Just state wherein it is defective.

A. I consider the brick very good, but the material isn't.

Q

A

State what kind.

I shouldn't call it first-class sand; too much loam in it. QIs it possible to make a good job out of that sand ? A. I think not, sir.

Q.

Do you know anything about the kind of lime used? A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know anything about the Lemont lime?

A. No, sir--I would qualify that statement-I haven't seen it worked with this sand, and therefore know nothing about it.

Q. What is the character of Lemont lime?

A. It hasn't a first-class reputation.

Q. What do you say of the mortar of those walls in the basement?