The Chairman stated the question (in its reduced form) to be on the motion to make the senatorial term of service three years instead of four-and the number of senators thirty-six instead of thirty-two.

THE CHIEF JUSTICE said, he had heard of no reason, why there should be any alteration in the duration of the period for which the senators were elected. Experience had not shewn, that the period, as now fixed, was too long; and no complaint had been heard from any quarter against it. He supposed, the reasons for continuing the term at four years were rendered stronger by the extension of the right of suffrage, and the lessening of the term of the executive. And when they also took into consideration, that the senate constituted a court of dernier resort, he trusted that the Convention would not deem it advisable to make any innovation in this respect.

GEN. ROOT replied. He said, he was sorry that he had not been understood by the honourable gentleman from Albany (Mr. Spencer) yesterday: he had then explained the reasons for substituting three, instead of four years. The senators would be responsible to the people: and the principle of permanency in that body would be preserved by changing only one-third annually. It was, also, analogous to the constitution of the United States, as he had then explained it.

MR. SHELDON called for a division of the question.

MR. RADCLIFF observed, that since the extension of the right of suffrage had been decided upon, there was an additional reason to insist upon retaining an extended term of senatorial service: since that body were now more dependant than heretofore on the popular will. He also enforced a variety of other considerations against the motion, and was succeeded by

MR. SHARPE, who said, that although he was in favour of equalizing the votes of the people; yet there was a point beyond which we ought not to go. The senate should be stable. It was our court of the last resort, and it was an inconsistency to say, that our county court judges, who were but one remove above justices of the peace, should hold their offices for five years as we had already determined, and yet, that the members of our court of dernier resort should be reduced to three.

The motion was further opposed by Messrs. Spencer and King, and support. ed by the mover and Mr. Cramer.

The question was then taken thereon, by ayes and noes, and decided in the negative, as follows:

NOES-Messrs. Bacon, Baker, Barlow, Beckwith, Birdseye, Buel, Clyde, Collins, Dodge, Dubois, Duer, Dyckman, Eastwood, Edwards, Fairlie, Fish, Hallock, Hunter, Huntington, Jay, Jones, Kent, King, Lansing, Lawrence, Lefferts, P. R. Livingston, Millikin, Moore, Munro, Nelson, Paulding, Platt, Porter, President, Radcliff, Reeve, Rhinelander, Sage, Sanders, N. Sanford, Schenck, Sharpe, I. Smith, R. Smith, Spencer, Steele, I. Sutherland, Sylvester, Tallmadge, Ten Eyck, Tripp, Tuttle, Van Ness, J. R. Van Rensselaer, S. Van Rensselaer, Van Vechten, Verbryck, Ward, A. Webster, Wendover, Wheaton, E. Williams, N. Williams, Wooster, Yates.-67.

AYES Messrs. Briggs, Brinkerhoff, Brooks, Burroughs, Carpenter, Carver, Child, D. Clark, R. Clarke, Cramer, Day, Fenton, Ferris, Frost, Hogeboom, Howe, A. Livingston, M'Call, Park, Price, Pumpelly, Richards, Rockwell, Root, Rosebrugh, Ross, Russell, R. Sandford, Seaman, Seeley, Sheldon, Starkweather, Swift, Taylor, Townley, Townsend, Van Fleet, Van Horne, Woods, Young-40.

GEN. ROOT thereupon withdrew the residue of his motion; and so much of the first section of the original report as relates to the number and term of service of the senate was put, and carried without a division.

The question, next in order, was upon the second section of the report of the select committee, in relation to the number and designation of the senatorial districts.

MR. BACON said, that we had now come to the great point which had been incidentally discussed during the debate on other parts of the report, and which

the committee were now called upon to decide. Believing, as he did, that the division of the state into single senatorial districts was on every account extremely desirable; that it involved no insurmountable difficulties, but was entirely practicable, he should offer an amendment to the report of the select committee to that purpose. It was conceded on all hands that the principle of small and single electoral districts was in itself attended with one very eminent advantage over all other modes, and was confessedly the most friendly to the proper and intelligent exercise of the elective franchise-as it brought the elector and elected near to each other-enabled the former to judge with much greater correctness of the qualifications of the latter, and thus more distinctly carried into effect the true principle of representation, than could possibly be expected where they were situated at a great distance from each other, and might have no real affinity of interests, feelings, or views. Unless therefore, it could be shewn, that there was some particular inconvenience attending small and single districts, which was sufficient to outweigh these their obvious advantages, or that they were impracticable, there could be no doubt that they ought at once to be adopted and established by the constitution. He had heard of but a single inconvenience which had been mentioned, and this was, that in order to constitute them, it might sometimes be necessary to resort to a partial division of large counties, by annexing a few of their surplus towns to an adjoining county, which had a deficiency of the requisite numbers. There would, however, it was believed, be but a very few counties, compared with the whole number, where this would be found necessary-but even were it otherwise, the inconveniences supposed would be very trifling-they existed more in imagination than in fact, and were really of very little practical moment. The amendment which he should propose provided, that such annexation should always consist of contiguous territory, and should infringe as little as possible upon county divisions. How many were the instances where the inhabitants bordering upon a neighbouring county were quite as much conver sant with their neighbours living in a different one, as much connected with them in business, and as well acquainted with their public concerns and characters, as they were with the business, habits, and characters of their own county? In many cases they were more so; and if they were not so already, the habit of convening, consulting, and voting with them, would very soon bring them thus acquainted. A greater part of county lines were merely ideal and arbitrary landmarks, often very capriciously laid down, and for objects very different from those which were necessary to take into consideration in establishing convenient election districts. At any rate, it might be safely said, that the contiguons inhabitants of counties were much better acquainted with each other, and had greater community of interests and feelings, than the great body of people residing in the distant parts of the larger districts which it was proposed to constitute; when it was necessary to bring together from two to four counties to make but seventeen districts, and many more, if, as some contended, we ought to have either eight or twelve districts. In this case, it will be indispensable to connect together inhabitants residing 'sometimes hundreds of miles from each other, as had been done heretofore, the inconvenience and absurdity of which was on all hands felt and acknowledged. Another advantage of single districts was, that they would be more likely to be fairly laid off, and did not offer that facility or temptation to be abused for the purposes of party policy, or to use a word which had become a sort of technical, and was a very expressive one, they were not so capable of being gerrymandered as large districts were. In the latter case, a prevailing party in the state if already large, could frequently, by a skilful arrangement, and a dexterous transposition of the counties, so lay off a few great districts as to secure to themselves every senator to he elected, and completely to exclude from that body every one of their political opponents. On every account, such a state of things was dangerous and undesirable. To the minority it must be galling and unwelcome, and however desirable it might seem to a majority, and however apt they were to take measures for that end,it was, as he in his conscience believed, and as had often turned out to be the case, equally impolitic and dangerous, even for them. A minority to some extent was not only desirable for the general interest of the public, but

even for the well being and long continuance of the majority itself. It was necessary to keep them in healthful action, and to prevent them from falling to pieces by their own weight. Under the predominance of what political party the proposed constitution was, in all probability, to be carried into effect, it was not, perhaps, difficult to foresee, under any arrangement of our electoral districts whatever; but he submitted it to the good sense of gentlemen, whether it was advisable to leave this power of districting the state open to the abuse of any party whatever, when it was not called for by any considerations of necessity or utility. Without entering møre at large into the question at present, he would submit the amendment to the discretion of the committee, which was to strike out the word "seventeen" in the first line, and to insert" thirty-two," and after the word “districts,” in the fourth line, insert the following:

"That each district shall elect one senator, and shall be composed of contigu ous territory, shall conform as near as may be to county lines, and be laid off, and the senators apportioned by the present legislsture at their next session according to the number of free inhabitants, and excluding aliens, persons of colour not taxed, paupers and convicts, in each district; which apportionment shall continue until a census of the inhabitants of the state shall be taken as hereinafter direc ted."

COL. YOUNG remarked, that he was in favour of the greatest number of senatorial districts that could be formed without breaking up counties; but he was convinced that it was inexpedient to dissolve and disunite those associations. It had been said yesterday, by two honourable gentlemen, that the towns in Dutchess were anxious for a divorce from Columbia, whilst an honourable gentleman from the latter county (Mr. Van Ness) had replied that the wish was reciprocated. This convinced him that it was expedient to preserve the counties entire.

MR. E. WILLIAMS said, there had been a general expression in favour of having single districts, if that object could be effected without disturbing the lines of counties. The honourable Chairman had been expressing himself in favour of such an arrangement, if the plan could be devised for doing so, without dividing and cutting up counties, or making them too unequal. But he has told us that this cannot be done; and another gentleman had assured them, that a division of the state into thirty-two districts, would require the cutting up of thirty counties. Mr. W. said he had carefully examined this subject, and had made what he believed to be an accurate calculation; and he had found that single districts, with the exception of the city of New-York, might be made by dividing only three counties. By the calculation he had made, there would be one senator for every 45,335 souls, excluding those which it had been determined by a previous vote, were not to be counted.

Suffolk and Queens together, he said, contained about the requisite number for one senator; and he would make them one district. He would unite the city of New-York and the counties of Kings and Richmond, into one district, and give them three senators: there was such a close and constant intercourse between these places, that the inhabitants were very generally acquainted with each other. Westchester and Putnam one; Rockland and Orange one. Here, he said, would be a surplus of 10,000; and if that was thought too great, they might annex a few towns of Orange, to Ulster and Sullivan, as they would fall about 3000 short of the number required for one member. Dutchess more than enough for one. Columbia a little short. Greene and Delaware one; Otsego one; Albany one; Schoharie and Schenectady one; Saratoga one; Montgomery one; Warren, Clinton and Franklin one; Rensselaer one; Washington one: St. Lawrence and Jefferson one; Lewis and Herkimer one; Oneida would have a large surplus, but it was better to let large counties have but one, though they might have an excess; their representation in the other house, would make up for the deficiency in the senate. Or, if thought best. a few of the towns of Oneida, might be added to Herkimer. Madison and Oswego one; Onondaga one; Chenango and Broome one; Cortland and Tioga one; Cayuga one; Seneca and Tompkins one; Steuben, Allegany, and Cattaragus one; Ontario one; here, too, there would be a large surplus; and a few towns might be taken from this county and added to an adjoining district. Livingston and Monroe one; Genesee one; and Niagara, Erie, and Chautauque one.

The districts, he admitted, would not be exactly equal; but the difference be tween any two, would not be greater than would be the case, by adopting the report of the committee. And he would beg leave to call the attention of the honourable Chairman of the select committee, (Mr. King) to this subject; he could, he well knew, enforce more strongly and clearly than himself, the necessity of having small districts, that the electors and the elected might know each other; that the electors might know the moral and religious character of of those for whom they voted.

The following is the table and estimates submitted by Mr. Williams.

Single districts, contrasted with the seventeen districts, as reported by the select Committee.

Free white inhabitants in this state,

Deduct aliens,

1,332,744

15,101 1,317,643

Divided by thirty-two, the whole number of senators, gives 41,176 to each. The population of each county, as hereinafter expressed, is the entire number of free whites, excepting only foreigners not naturalized.

1 at. district, Suffolk 22,429, Queens 18,260-10, 689; minus 1,587.

2d. district, Kings 9,118, New-York 107,430. Richmond 5,520 122,068 Three senators require 123,528 minus 1,460 3d. district, Westchester 30,525, Putnam 11,014 -41,539, plus 363; or,

Westchester 30,525, Rockland 8,246-38,871 ; minus 2,405.

or,

4th. district Orange alone 38,943; minus 2,232;

Orange 38,944, Rockland 8,246-47,190; plus 6,914.

5th. district, Ulster 28,709, Sullivan 8,72937,438; minus 3,738.

6th. district, Dutchess alone 43,910; plus 1,734. 7th. district, Columbia alone 36 383; minus 4,798.

8th district, Greene 22,144, Delaware 25,891; plus 6,859.

9th. district, Otsego 44,284; plus 3,108. 10th. district, Albany 36,524; minus 4,652. 11th. district, Schenectady 12,126, Schoharie 22,523; ininus 6,527.

12th, district, Saratoga alone 35,167; minus 6,006; or,

Saratoga 35,167, Warren 9,327 plus 3.318. 13th. district, Montgomery 35,558, Hamilton 1,243-37,801; minus 3,375.

14th district, Rensselaer alone 38,844; minus. 2,332.

15th district, Washington alone 38,198; minus 2,982.

16th. district, the same as ninth. 17th. district, the same as tenth. 18th district, Herkimer, 30,438; minus 10,744. 19th district, Oneida, alone 49,675; plus 7,499. 20th. district, Madison, 31,919, Oswego, 12,211; plus 2,984

21st, district, Onondaga, 41,114; minus 62 22d. district, Chenango, 31,007; Cortland 16, 435: plus 5,276; or

Chenango, 31,007, Broome, 14,204; plus 4,035 23rd district, Broome, 14,204, Tioga, 16,732, 31,935 minus 9,241; or

85,048

Tioga, 16,731, Cortland, 16,435,

Two senators require 82,352: plus 2,695 17th district, Niagara, and Erie, 22,843, Cattaragus, 4,084 Chautauque, 12,553

minus 8,010

39,480,

minus 1,696

33,166

24th. district, Cayuga,38.447 minus 2,729 25th. district, Seneca, 23,318, Tompkins, 20, 589-43,007 plus 1,731.

26th. district, Ontario, 60,951: plus 18,775. 27th. district. Steuben 21,658, Allegany 9,271, Cattaraugus 4084-35,213; minus 6163,

28th district, Monroe 26.695, Livingston, 18, 355-46,050 plus 3,847.

29th. district, Genesee 39,998; minus 1178. 30th district, Niagara and Erie 22,843, Chaw tayque 12,553-35,396; minus 5780.

The usual hour of adjournment having arrived, the committee rose, reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again.

In Convention, MR. SPENCER asked leave of absence for a fortnight for himself and Messrs. Van Ness and Platt, which was granted, nem con, and the Convention adjourned.

SATURDAY, OCTOBER 13, 1821.

Prayer by the Rev. Mr. DE WITT. The minutes of yesterday read and ap proved.

MR. P. R. LIVINGSTON, after some remarks on questions of order, and the unnecesary waste of time, which had already taken place, offered the following resolution :

Resolved, by this Convention, that no member be permitted to speak more than twice, on the same question, when in committee of the whole.

The resolution was opposed by Mr. Young. Adopted.

MR. RADCLIFF, from the committee on the parts of the constitution, not referred to any particular committee, reported in part as follows:

I. That the proceeds of all the lands belonging to this state, not otherwise appropriated, which shall hereafter he sold or disposed of, under the authority of the legislature, together with the fund, denominated the common school fund, shall constitute and remain a perpetual fund, the interest of which, shall be inviolably appropriated and applied to the support of common schools, throughout this

state.

II. That no lottery shall hereafter be authorised in this state and the legisla ture shall pass laws, to prevent the sale of all lottery tickets, within this state, except in lotteries already provided for by them.

III. That the thirtieth article of the constitution of this state, ought to be abol ished.*

IV. That the fortieth article of the constitution, ought also to be abolished; and that instead thereof, the following be adopted.

"The militia of this state, shall, at all times hereafter, be armed and disciplined, and in readiness for service; but that all persons belonging to any sect or denomination, holding it unlawful to bear arms, be excused therefrom, and to pay to the state, such sums of money, in lieu of their personal service, as the same shall be worth."

V. That the legislature shall not pass any laws, by which any person shall be compelled to attend upon, or support any place of public worship; or to maintain any ministry against his consent; or which shall, in any manner, restrain the free exercise of religious profession or worship.

VI. That no new county shall be erected or established, which shall reduce the county or counties, from which it may be taken, or either of them, to less than the contents of square miles; nor shail any new county be established of less

contents.

VII. The committee have considered the resolution of the honourable the convention, of the 10th instant, by which it was referred to them to report what provision, if any, is proper to be adopted, in relation to the appointment of senators of this state, in the senate of the United States, and are of opinion, that the mode of appointing the said senators, is prescribed by the constitution of the United States, and depends on the just construction thereof: That the constitution of the Unit. ed States, and the true construction of its provisions in relation thereto, must control this question, and that therefore it would be useless and unavailing, to make any provision on the subject.

On motion of Mr. Van Buren, the report was referred to the committee of the whole, when on the legislative department, and ordered to be printed.

* Mode of appointment of delegates to the general congress.