BRIDGE TO BE CONSTRUCTED ON NENANA RIVER.

The CHAIRMAN. Going back to the $865,000 which you are asking for, $400,000 of that is to build a main line bridge at mile 371. Where is mile 371 ?

Colonel STEESE. That is on the Nenana River, on the north side of the Alaska Slope.

The CHAIRMAN. You had a bridge there?

Colonel STEESE. Yes, sir; that bridge had been there for several years, and it went out.

The CHAIRMAN. This amount is to replace that bridge?

Colonel STEESE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Was that a temporary structure, and is this to be a permanent structure?

Major GOTWALS. That was gradually converted into a semipermanent structure, with one concrete pier. The other piers of the old wooden bridge were frame, and two of those went out in the flood, and the pile approaches went out, and we had to transfer the traffic across the river. The new bridge will be much stronger.

MAIN LINE BRIDGE AT MILE 371.

The CHAIRMAN. You have an item of $400,000 for the main-line bridge, at mile 371. What sort of a bridge is that?

Major GOTWALS. That is a steel bridge on concrete piers, made up of three spans of 200 feet each.

The CHAIRMAN. Are the foundations far enough away from the banks of the river to prevent them from being washed out? Major GOTWALS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have good material for the foundations at the ends of the bridge?

Major GOTWALS. We have very excellent foundations there for the concrete at the ends of the bridge. The bedrock comes to the surface at both ends of the proposed bridge alignment. There is a change in the alignment of the bridge there.

The CHAIRMAN. You feel quite sure that the construction of this steel bridge there will be safe?

Major GOTWALS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you tell us of any reason why they did not put a permanent bridge there in the first instance?

Major GOTWALS. I was not there, but I understand that it gradually grew from being a temporary bridge to a permanent one in the hope that they would get by with it. The expenditures on the present bridge have amounted to about $160,000. The center pier was the only one that was of concrete, and everything else was of timber construction. It might have gone along for 10 years.

The CHAIRMAN. You have the center pier?

Major GOTWALS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is where the danger of destruction was greatest at the center pier?

Major GOTWALS. The center pier under this bridge has withstood everything.

The CHAIRMAN. Its foundations are down to the bedrock?
Major GOTWALS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That pier is standing?

Major GOTWALS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And it can be utilized?

Major GOTWALS. No, sir; there is to be a change in the location. Colonel STEESE. This bridge will be farther up the river.

BRIDGES AND FILLS AT MILES 49.3 AND 54.3 ACROSS PLACER RIVER.

The CHAIRMAN. You have an item of $96,000 for bridges and fills at miles 49.3 and 54.3.

Major GOTWALS. Those are bridges across the Placer River. The bridge at mile 49.3 was on frame bents, resting on concrete pedestals. Those concrete pedestals washed out, and we are replacing them with piers that will take us through this winter. Considerable bank protection is required there. This amount will not complete those two piers, and there is a considerable amount to be done after this winter. The CHAIRMAN. How much additional money will be required? Major GOTWALS. In this particular case, about $15,000. The CHAIRMAN. Why not do it all at once?

Major GOTWALS. Some of it can not be done until we get the rock. This is a very bad place, and the concrete pier must be put in during the winter. During the summer we can open a rock pit. It is the same situation at mile 54.3, where the concrete work must be done this winter. The work in the river channel must be done this winter. We can bring in the rock for the revetment of the banks for the two piers and the approaches to the bridge in summer.

The CHAIRMAN. You can put the pier in the center down only in winter?

If it

Major GOTWALS. Yes, sir. It can be done because it is dry then. The CHAIRMAN. The ice enables you to carry on the work? Major GOTWALS. Yes, sir. The frost dries up the water. were done in the summer, we would have to build coffer dams. The CHAIRMAN. You have a flow of water there? Major GOTWALS. Yes, sir.

CONSTRUCTION ALONG NENANA CANYON.

The CHAIRMAN. What about the item of $50,000 for regrading Nenana Canyon?

Major GOTWALS. That is a stretch that extends for a long distance, and we have many gaps in the line there. At one place we had a 65,000 sq.-cubic embankment that simply slid down into the Nenana River. We have a frame pile trestle across there which settles and requires attention continually.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that a narrow canyon?

Major GOTWALS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The banks are high?

Major GOTWALS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You are on the ledge?

Major GOTWALS. Yes, sir; with the river down below. Beside the place that I have referred to, we have other places where the roadbed is dropping down into the bed of the river, and it must be protected. We are undertaking to bring that about by a system of drainage.

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The CHAIRMAN. You lay the drains under the track from the slopes above?

Major GOTWALS. We take the slopes above first, and then underdrain them. That appears to meet both of these cases. The water coming down into the bed of the river along bedrocks lubricates the whole embankment.

Mr. BYRNS. In view of the climatic conditions there, with successive thawing and freezing, and then rethawing and refreezing, have you any hope that that portion of your track will ever be very stable, and will you not have to be continually asking for appropriations to maintain it?

Major GOTWALS. Frozen ground can be thawed out in Alaska and drained. The topography of the Nenana Canyon makes it difficult to do that, and it calls for an individual and detailed study in each case. It is a difficult problem, and I can bring up individual cases to show you how puzzling it is.

Mr. BYRNS. I know that when the Alaska Railroad was first planned the statement was made that it would cost $35,000,000, and it was then provided that it should be constructed at that cost. Later on, the authorization was increased to $52,000,000, and then increased to $56,000,000. Every dollar of that has been appropriated, and here we have a program for an additional amount to complete the railroad. The outlook is not very encouraging for the final completion of this railroad, because, as I understand from what has been said here with reference to the conditions up there, when this program is carried out there will be another program of expenditure to meet these conditions, which, of course, nobody can control. The CHAIRMAN. Of course, the expenditures will be continuous, but if you had revenues you could use them.

Colonel STEESE. The only eventual solution would be to bring the revenues up to a sufficient amount to carry the expense, but that is some years off.

Mr BYRNS. You will have to increase your freight rates.

COPPER RIVER AND NORTHWESTERN RAILROAD.

Major GOTWALS. The Copper River & Northwestern Railroad. which is 190 miles long, was developed rather boldly from the commercial standpoint. It reaches one mine, and I believe that the contribution of that one mine toward the upkeep and maintenance of that railroad is about $1,000,000 a year. That, of course, is a very substantial amount, and it indicates the amount of money that one mine can supply. That one mine is really a small one, but it is rich

in ore.

Mr. CRAMTON. They put about $20,000,000 into that mine before anything was taken out of it, did they not?

Major GOTWALS. The total amount of money invested in the railroad is not published. It has been stated to me as low as $18,000,000 and as high as $26,000,000. Twenty million dollars would probably be reasonably accurate.

Mr. WOOD. That is practically the only thing that they have on that railroad that produces revenue?

Major GOTWALS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. If you had mines to serve, you would have greater revenues?

Colonel STEESE. Yes, sir. If any one of the numerous mining districts there on our line were operating even in a small way, it would soon develop into a substantial traffic.

Mr. CRAMTON. Of course, that is the only justification for this railroad—that is, the fact that through a tremendous area there are prospects of mineral developments of many kinds which never would be brought about except through some such means of transportation as this.

Colonel STEESE. Yes, sir, that is true.

Mr. CRAMTON. It is an investment in the future development of Alaska.

Colonel STEESE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the outlook for development?

Colonel STEESE. In several of those districts the business that we are getting from them has increased enormously in the last four or five years. That, of course, brings up the question of road construction. Wherever we have roads, the revenues of the railroad have increased.

Mr. CRAMTON. Referring to this regrading item, is that for the completion of some work, or is it just a start on the regrading? Major GOTWALS. It is just a start here.

The CHAIRMAN. This is a three-year program reduced to the basis of a six-year program?

Colonel STEESE. Yes, sir.

COST OF MAKING TERMINALS AT PORTAGE BAY.

Mr. CRAMTON. Is any of this expense going toward the rehabilitation of the road we purchased, or is it for our own original construction?

Colonel STEESE. Those bridges at miles 49.3 and 54.3 are on the Alaska Northern Railroad.

Mr. CRAMTON. That is what we bought?

Colonel STEESE. Yes, sir.

Mr. CRAMTON. What did we pay for it?

Colonel STEESE. $1,150,000, I think. That is 71 miles.

Mr. CRAMTON. Was that an essential purchase?

Colonel STEESE. With Seward as a terminus; yes, sir. That was a part of the decision to build there.

Mr. CRAMTON. The purchase of that railroad was entirely unnecessary unless Seward was to be made the terminus. As I understand it, Anchorage could have been made the terminus, and could yet be made the terminus. Can you give me an offhand general estimate as to what would be required to make Anchorage available as a winter terminus?

Colonel STEESE. I personally do not think that Anchorage could be made a winter terminus at any reasonable expense at all.

Mr. CRAMTON. There were certain tunnel propositions that would have to be taken up.

Colonel STEESE. The alternative proposition to Seward was Portage Bay.

Mr. CRAMTON. I suppose that is what I had in mind. Colonel STEESE. Yes, sir. Here [indicating] is Seward. Then we come up over the Chugach Mountains here [indicating]. Instead of

going down here to Seward [indicating] we would go to Portage Bay, which is 11 miles over here. The two propositions were to build from here [indicating], which would have saved 53 miles and would have saved the most difficult division to operate.

Mr. CRAMTON. What would it cost to go across there to Portage Bay?

Čolonel STEESE. It could be done for less than what it has cost to rehabilitate the other line.

Mr. CRAMTON. What would it cost now to run it across to Portage Bay!

Colonel STEESE. $5,000,000. There would be 2 miles of tunnel. Eight miles of the construction would be fairly light, but the 2 miles of tunnel would cost $1,500,000 per mile, perhaps.

Mr. CRAMTON. I wanted to get that problem before the chairman of the committee. $5,000,000 would take the line across there to Portage Bay?

Colonel STEESE. Yes, sir.

Mr. CRAMTON. Against that you have to set off $250,000 for dock development at Seward and Anchorage, which you have spoken of. Then there would be a saving in the operations, would there not? Colonel STEESE. There would be a big saving in operations. Mr. CRAMTON. How much saving would there be? Colonel STEESE. There are 53 miles to operate there now. Mr. CRAMTON. That is the most difficult operation you have? Colonel STEESE. Yes, sir. I will have to correct these figures, but the rehabilitation of the Seward Line has cost around $5,000,000. Mr. CRAMTON. What have you in this $5,000,000 program for the further rehabilitation of the Seward line? If you have not the figures accessible put them in the record.

Colonel STEESE. We have these two bridges.

Mr. CRAMTON. Also estimate what the annual saving in the operation would be if that change were made. Colonel STEESE. I will do so.

ANNUAL SAVINGS, OPERATION AND MAINTENANCE COSTS.

After construction of mile 65, Portage Bay Line, and abandonment of mile 65, Seward Line.

Assume equipment as of January 1, 1924, and traffic carried that of calendar year 1923.