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(February 16th

would be just as capable as any other, I can re. Des Moines (Mr. Hall) had changed his opinions fer the gentleman to the opinion of Governor | in regard to this matter. I do not know that Grimes in regard to that Legislature. I believe the gentleman from Appanoose did say that the he was under the necessity of interposing, in supreme judges sliould be kept in office. But I many instances, in reference to their doings am confident, though I may be mistaken, that here. I would, therefore, refer the gentleman the gentleman from Des Moines offered good and to his Excellency in reg ird to that Legislature. cogent reasons why they should be permitted

The gentleman says-not in precisely so many to remain in office; and the same reasons will apwords, but it amounted to the same thing—that ply to members of the legislature. They have this making an appeal to the people, this refer- been elected for a specific term, and they should ring this matter to the people, is all buncombe; not be thrown out until that specific term has and that it is got up here for nothing but bun- | been fulfilled. I mean that they cannot honestcombe. If he tbinks so, then he can take the ly and morally be turned out. position of not only continuing in oflice the Perbaps it was with an air of triumph that I Legislature, but all the rest of the officers of asked the gentleman from Des Moines if he had this State, for life. We hold that all oíficers changed his opinions upon that point in five or should be frequently elected by the people, and six days. He urged good reasons the other day that there should be no interposition between on the one side, and he can offer no better on the the people and their servants to provent them other side to-day. I only asked for informafrom reviewing their conduct when they see tion. I wished to know if he had changed bis proper. I say that that is the principle of our views. government. And the only question to be del Mr. HARRIS. Is the gentleman in favor of cided here is, whether we are willing to let this districting the State into judicial districts ? matter go back to the people, or interposo be | Mr. SCOTT. I have told the gentleman al. tween them and those they may desire to select ready, that I have not investigated that matto sustain and put in operation what we may do ter. here.

Mr. HARRIS. I understood the gentleman The gentleman says he is willing to take the from Des Moines (Mr. Hall) to say positively, the respousibility. He can do so, if he desires, and other day, that he was in favor of turning out continue the present Legislature in office. But the supreme judges. I wish to tell that gentleman, and other gentle | Mr. PARVIN. I have listened all this time men here, that I should not wish to bear that to hear some good reason for turning these offiresponsibility before my constituents. And I cers out of otiice. As I wish to keep them in apprehend that when this matter comes to be office, I desire to give my reasons very briefly. discussed before the people of this State, there I think the gentleman from Des Moines (Mr. will be a more weighty responsibility attached Hall) must either consider that the present legto it tban gentlemen here seem to be aware of. islature are incompetent to act under this new

Gentlemen ask us with an air of triumph,-- constitution, or that they are dishonest and Would you put the supreme judges out of oifice? will not do as well as others would No other I say, yes, I would ; and that, too, just as quick- reason, I think, could be drawn from his arguly as I wvuld any other officers. I do not hold ment. If this convention fixes the constitution the supreme judges to be any more sacred, or as the gentleman from Des Moines argues, they farther above the people and the ballot box, than must provide for new men to act under it, and any other officers. If they have discharged their put it into operation. And yet those men who duties and met their responsibilities properly, elected the delegates to this convention, elected and in a manner that the people expected of but a short time before, members of the legislathem, then they have nothing to fear. If ture; and those men, I think, are as well qualithey have not, I ask what responsibility they ex- fied to act justly and understandingly as would pect to get clear of by holding on to their pow. be others more recently elected. er a while longer ? They must some time pass The people elected them for a definite period in review before the people, and will not be ad- of time, under a constitution then and now in judged more favorably on account of time. force. That constitution may be done away with

Vr. SCOTT. The gentleman from Appanoose by the institution of the one we are now framMr. Harris] has seen fit to represent that I have ling; but they elected those members under that interrogated the gentleman from Des Moines constitution, as they had been doing for the last [Mr. Hall] with an air of arrogance.

ten years. These men, having been elected for Mr. HARRIS. I did not say arrogance. a definite period of time, have the right to re· Mr. SCOTT. Well ; with an air of triumph. main in office during the term for which they Perhaps it might have been with an air of tri- were elected. We are not providing a constituumph that I interrogated the gentleman from tion for a new tribe, or a new race of men, but Des Moines (Mr. Hall), and if I mistake not, the for the same class of people that the present gentleman from Des Moines offered good and legislature were elected to represent. When we cogent reasons why the supreme judges should are asked to turn out all the officers that be kept in office. I suppose they were good and the people have elected, and send them well taken, and well grounded. I have no issue back to the people, I am afraid of the rewith the gentleman from Appanoose [Mr. Har- sponsibility. But I am not afraid to carry out ris], but I wished to know if the gentleman from the wishes of those who sent me here. The Monday]


[February 16th.

present legislature is the very body that ought Now I wish to say in regard to tbis question, to carry out this new constitution. It was elec- which has been discussed here, that I underted just before the present convention was elec- stood, when I was elected as a delegate to this ted. Let us not take the responsibility of say- convention, that I was to come here, not for the ing here that the people last August did not purpose of framing a new constitution for the know whom they wanted for their representa- State of Iowa, or to legislate the present general tives, and that they know better to-day. We assembly out of office, or legislate any of the might just as well put in the constitution ibat State officers out of office; but we were to meet representatives shall be elected crery six here to make a few important changes in the months.

constitution, then adjourn, and go home. So It is said that we are taking power from the far as my constituents are concerned, I do not people. I say we would be taking power from believe that one of them, whether democrat or the people, if we were to say here that what republican, expected that any such change as they did last August shall be undone. I am op- this would be made. And I hold that the proper posed to doing that, because I think the men course for this convention to bave persned was elected last August are just as competent as any to have made these changes, and have gone we can get now. I feel that they are just as home before this time. honest and faithful as new men would be. I be- Gentlemen have been talking to us for three lieve the people want them to remain in office, or four days back about the probabilities of s and I do not want them to have the trouble of tremendous public sentiment being manufacelecting them over again. I do not think we tured out of the length of the time this conreahave any right to devolve that trouble back tion has been in session. And I do not know upon the people, and make them do the work but what there has been some buncombe madover that they did last August. The responsi- ufactured out of that. But at the very time they bility is in putting them in, and not in keeping are talking about getting through in a few days them in.

more, they are hatching up measures that will Mr. GILLASPY. I concur with the gentle. keep us here six weeks, if they are persisted in. man from Mahaska, [Mr. Young,] when he said bringing up questions that will cause as much that the universal opinion was, that when they excitement and discussion as any that can come elected the senators, they would go out of office before us. when this new constitution was adopted. That I am in favor of making a few necessary and was the opinion in my county, that in the event prominent changes in the constitution. For ina new constitution should be made and adopted, stance, I am in favor of one concerning incorpothe representatives then elected should only rations, and pernaps one in the article upon the serve until that constitution was adopted. judiciary, making the judges elective by the

I believe the gentleman from Benton [Mr. people. These, and perhaps a few other amendTraer,] will not certainly charge me with desir- ments, I undertake to say, were all that was ering to come here to the legislature. But I know pected of us, and looked for by the people. that the people of my region of the State expect And as to my taking the responsibility upon that the present members of the legislature will me to vote a certain way, I believe that if I vote go out of office, and that we will begin anew ag I have indicated, I shall go home with less with the new constitution. And I know farther, responsibility than will the gentleman from Apthat some of the supreme judges expect the same panoose, (Mr. Harris,] if he votes for turning thing with regard to themselves. And I know every man out of office, getting ready himself, the Governor expects it himself. I believe the perhaps, to accept office. people are just as competent to elect represent- Jr. IIARRIS. Is the gentleman in favor of atives now as they were last August. And I keeping in office the members of the House as would be perfectly willing that our members of well as of the Senate ? the senate and of the house of representatives Mr. TRAER. I think I expressed in yself shall be again sent back to the people. And I plainly and distinctly upon that question. sball endeavor by every action of mine here to Mr. HARRIS, I think I understood the gen. discharge honestly my duty to my constituents. tleman to say, in regard to this matter of apHence I support the amendment of the gentle- portionment in this constitution, that he was in man from Mahaska, [Mr. Young.]

favor of a new apportionment. Mr. TRAER. I wish to say in answer to my Mr. GOWER. I agree with the gentleman friend from Wapello, Mr. Gillaspy, that I sup- from Benton, (Mr. Traer,] that we were sent pose it I had charged him with the desire to get here to make but few changes in the constituinto the legislature, he might have had some tion, and not to meddle with those officers the ground of complaint. I certainly did not charge people have elected. I see by the old constituthat upon him, or any gentlenan here, but only tion, that it is provided that said that it was one reason that would be as- "The members of the House of Representasigned for making this change in regard to our tives shall be chosen every second year, by the present legislature. The gentleman says he has qualified electors of their respective districts, never been a candidate for the legislature. And on the first Monday in August, whose term of for a very good reason ; he has been in more office shall continue two years from the day of profitable businese, ever since I have been in the the general election.” State.

It does not go on and say, “or until this ConMonday )


[February 16th

stitution is changed," but that their "term of the legislature are intended to make laws, and office shall continue two years from the day of the the State officers to carry them out. general election." There was nothing in the act Mr. EDWARDS. I am opposed to ousting the calling us together here, that I know of, that present members of the General Assembly for authorizes us to meddle with ibat matter at all. this reason: If we adopt a provision in the conNor do I know that there is anything in our of- stitution to oust the present legislature, then we fice that would justify us in doing so. And when must provide here to district the State for senaI was at home, no longer ago than last Satur- torial and representative purposes. I am opday, the matter was spoken of there, and there posed to incorporating any such matters into was an expression of a wish that this thing the constitution, for the reason, that if we send should not be done; and I myself hope it will a constitution to the people, and they ratify it, not be done.

it is to be presumed that it will remain for many Mr. YOUNG. It does seem to me. from the years the fundamental law of the State, position taken by some gentleinen here, that we Now our State is continually changing in reare not to have a legislature to act expressly spect to population, wealth, and the developewith reference to this Constitution, if we get up

u ment of its resources. If we were to district one that the people will adopt. Gentlemen ar- the State for senatorial and representative purque here that we have no riglit to interfere with poses, in this constitution, it would have to the present legislature at all, because they were stand as long as the constitution stands. Now, elected by the people. That may be very good districts that are at present sparsely settled will doctrine. But carry it out, and see where it will probably, in the course of a few years, become lead us. We will have no right to change the time filled with a dense population, and there should of the meeting of the legislature. If we are to be a new districting of the State. retain the present members of the legislature in The gentleman from Des Moines (Mr. Hall) office, we must let them go on in their regular has said a great deal in regard to the 'dear peocourse in office.

ple,” in regard to giving the power to the people

to clect a new set of men to the legislature. Jy opinion, when I came here, was, that we

We Now, the "dear people" elected, only last sumwould make a constitution, submit it to the peo

0-mer, these men to the legislature; and if we legple, and after its adoption we must, as a matter of course, have some legislation before any mm-elect the same men, or the same num

islate them out of office, the same people will portant changes in the Constitution could be carried into effect. According to the argument

ber of men, and send them back again. of some gentlemen here, we cannot carry this

It was but the last August that the people exer

s cised this power, and the gentleman would have Constitution into effect before two years from

om them do it again next year. this winter, unless the Governor shall call an

I must say that I was amused at the position extra session of the legislature. I do not think that is what the people expect, but that we will lecture that he read to us at the commencement

taken by the gentleman, when I thought of the have a session of the legislature provided for

of our sessions here, when he said that the peohere sooner than that. If we do not have a ses

ple expected us to make but one or two changes sion until two years from this winter, we must

in the constitution. Now we find him pressing then have a legislature. I do think it would be

as many innovations upon the constitution as folly to retain the present legislature.

any other member upon this floor. And when I do not believe the legislature are as corrupt we come to compare notes, we will find that he and dishonest as some gentlemen have endeavo has said a great deal about our having to stay ored to represent them here. If I believed so, here so long. Now, what is "sauce for tho I would go for having no legislature at all. But goose is sauce for the gender," and if the genI believe that the legislature, as a general thing, tleman is right in his cry about sending the lege are composed of honest men, and that our last islature back to the people, the gentleman has legislature was as honest as any. Still, I do certainly occupied a different position heretofore not think they are as prepared to act upon the in opposing innovations upon the constitution. amendments which this Convention may make Mr. HALL. I do not know whether I am to to our Constitution, as men elected directly with impute the remarks of members in this commitreference to the questions brought before the tee to defective memories, or to indifference to people upon the adoption of this Constitution, what they may say. No man was ever so com

I hare no doubt in my ow? mind that two pletely mistaken as the gentleman from Clayton, kinds of banking will be permitted by the con- [Mr. Scott.] He could not have listened at all stitution. That appears to be the general im- to what I said the other day, or his recollection pression. here. And the members of the legisla- must go my contraries. The gentleman from ture should come up here with an expression Benton, [Mr. Traer,] seems to think that my from the people as to what kind of banking sys- action here is governed by some expected luurels tem they desire. I think the near r we get to that I may win by being a member of the next the people the better. I do not think there is legislature. He is as much mistaken as the genany inconsistency in throwing out the present tleman from Clayton. legislature. There is no similarity between the I do not like this kind of flings at the motives State officers and tbe supreme judges and the of gentlemen. Their positions should be met members of the legislature. The members of with at least something like argument. I looked Monday]


(February 16th

at this matter, as I thought, in a philosophic them. If not, then I do not wish to prevent point of view, in that point of view in which it them from electing others. would be looked upon, had not gentlemen some Is it mere demagoguism, mere buncombe for secret, hidden, concealed motives in this matter. ! me to stand up here and say that the people of If they acted as they talked, then they would act Des Moines county, or any other county in this as I propose to do.

State, when this constitution shall have been We are forming a constitution; a fundamental

submitted to them, and they shall have adopted law of the land; what I would term the higher

it, should have the privilege of selecting their

** agents to meet at their capitol to carry out the law of government for the people. We find that agents !

new principles we may have introduced into the people have become dissatisfied with their

their organic law? Is that demagoguism, ad present constitution, and have sent us here for

captandum argument, buncombe ? If so, then I the purpose of revising and amending it. There

have lived a long time to very little purpose, so is no rule in that constitution to control our action here. We expect to frame an instrument

far as knowing what an appeal to the people that will be equal, that when adopted by the peo

means. This is one of the vital principles beple, will be the creation and establishment of a

alonging to our government. new code, if I may so term it. which will insti- Gentlemen say to the people tbat ther-the tute a new form of government, in many partic

people-are satisfied with their representatives; ulars. Gentlemen concede that radical changes!

fe, they assume that they are wholly and entirely

satisfied with the representatives they have almust be made by us here, and thost changes must:

I ready chosen. Perhaps gentlemen can say that affect the people. And because I have said

1 they will be satisfied with them for four, six, or so, and because it is true, gentlemen taunt me with having been a mere buncombe talker in een eig

olleen in even eight years to come, for they will probably reference to “the dear people." Now if there

get no worse during that time, and will be as is weight in my opinion, if there is reality and

and good as they are now. You propose to make this substance that wo cannot fail to act upon, then

Legislature the representative of the people by

virtue of this Constitution ; you keep them in I claim that it is not a mere ad captandum argument, thrown out for the purpose of catching the

power by virtue of our action here, not as the

true representatives of the people, but as the public mind.

| appointees of this Convention. That is the poThose officers whom gentlemen want to exe- sition gentlemen take here. They will keep cute the new powers and duties created under alive those officials who would otherwise cease this constitution, will owe their authority to the to exi

thority, to the to exist, because they assume that the people instrument under which we are acting; they do want them to do so. They ask us to legislate not get their authority from the power under authority into this Constitution that shall pot which they will be acting; they were not elect

vitality into these officers who would otherwise ed under the instrument which we propose to

cease to exist; and when, if we did not do so, submit to the people. In reference to that the the people would have an opportunity of send. gentleman from Benton says that it was the gen- ling up here other representatives under this eral understanding in his district that the mem-verv Constitut

very Constitution we are now framing. bers elected in August last were to act under the

Gentlemen may think this is carrying their constitution we might frame bere. Now his argument too far, but to my mind it is not. I con

smuency may have the sagacity and fore-think there must be something not yet spoken sight to understand beforehand what this con- 1 of, which leads gentlemen to be so strongly posivention would do, and act with reference to what tive with regard to the great satisfaction it might be done here. My constituents were not would give the people to have their present 80 wise as that, and could not tell what the re-1 Legislature continued in office under the new sult of our deliberations here would be. They Constitution. did not know what new duties would be imposed Mr. TRAER. I do not wish to make anotber upon the legislature, and they did not take for speech upon this question. But I wish to granted that their representatives were so wise, I lieve, if I can, the mind of the gentleman from that they could be trusted to do what they Des Moines, Mr. ilalll in reference to this matpleased.

ter. I think ihe gentleman has drawn inferences The proposition I submit is this: that as we that are not warranted at all. He says, that by are forming, as it were, a new government, a not legislating the present General Assembly new organic law, changing our old form of gor- out of office, we will make them nothing more ernment in vital points in which the people are nor less than our appointees. Now, I bare a interested, we should open the door to the peo- great deal of confidence in the experience, abil. ple to send persons to the legislature that would ity, integrity, and all that, of the gentleman from represent their views and opinions upon these Des Moines; but I cannot come to any such conpoints. Gentlemen say that the present legisla-clusion as he has drawn. tyre are good enough, and wise enough, and will I ask the gentleman from Des Moines if the do what is right. I bave no desire to take issue people did not elect these men to serve for such with gentlemen upon that point; it is not for a length of time? Did not the Constitution unme to decide that; I wish to be excused from der which we are acting, provide that these men deciding that question. If the people are satis. should hold their office for a certain term ? Now fied that such is the case, then they can return the position ( have taken is to leave them to fill Monday]


(February 16th

out that term. We do not propose to say that measure, they will obey those instructions, be it they should hold office for four or six years. for a certain kind of banking law, or anything The people did not send us here to legislate out else. of office the men they have put in orlice. We Mr. JOHNSTON. I wish to make a few rewere sent here to make certain amendments, and marks upon this question. The question before after we have made thosc amendments to the the committee is not really the one that has Constitution we were sent here to make, I am in been discussed. All the discussion is upon tho favor of going home.

amendment of the gentleman from Jlahaska, Mr. HALL. Will these men hold their places Mr. Young,] which was adopted some time under the old Constitution, or the new one? since. I will, however, in this place, say one

Mr. TRAER. Under the new one, if it is word in regard to my position as a member of adopted; under the old one, if the new one is the committee that made the report now under rejected.

consideration. Ur. HALL. Will they have been elected un-i At the time this subject was being considered der the old or the new Constitution ?

by the committee, I felt perfectly indifferent Jr. TRAER. Suppose we do not change the about it; and I do yet. I have very little feelold Constitution at all in this respect, but leave ing upon the subject, either one way or the it as it is now, will there be any change? other. I acceded to the wishes of the majority Mr. HALL. Certainly not.

to have this section put in here. But seeing a Mr. TRAER. Then they will hold their power desire upon the part of some gentlemen here to under the same principle under which they were have it stricken out, I had no objection to that elected, whether you call it the new or the old being done. There are some reasons to be given Constitution.

for both sides of the question. That which inThe next position the gentleman takes, is, that fluenced the committee, to a great extent, was my constituency must be very sagacious, and all the fact that it was important, after the adopthat. I say to the gentleman, that last year, tion of this constitution, to have some persons when the question was presented whether we of experience, and who knew something, not should have a Constitutional Convention or not, only about the rules of legislation, but of the this question was canvassed. The question was affairs of the State. It was considered that put to the candidate for Senator— In case you they were the proper persons to come in and asare elected to the Senate, and the new Constitu- sist in carrying out the provisions of this contion permits a general banking system, are you stitution. That argument had great weight in favor of that system ?" That question was with members of the committee, and with myasked all the candidates'; and I suppose they self. were elected to carry out those principles. On the other hand there was another arguTherefore, I am not in favor of turning them ment equally strong, probably a little stronger, out of office. The people do not expect us to in favor of having new persons elected. Tho 80, but to carry out other purposes, which they | argument was simply this; that questions would did have in view when they sent us bere, and be presented by this very committee to tho then go home.

people of the State, which did not arise at the So far as the gentleman's classical quotations time these last senators were chosen. Take, for are concerned, I do not know as I should be able instance, this question of a banking law. We to answer them, if I should try. I do not know do not propose to go into the details of a bankas they have any place in this constitution, or ing law in this constitution. We propose to anything to do with it, or that they will have merely incorporate here the general outlines of anything to do with it, even if we amend it. a system, perhaps not even that; perhaps only

Mr. HARRIS, I would ask the gentleman authorize the legislature to pass a banking law this question ; if the present legislature is con- creating banks in this State. It may be very tinued in office, will not questions come up be- important to the people of this State to know fore them for them to legislate upon, that were for whom to vote to represent them in ihe next not expected to come up before them when they | legislature. were elected ?

There is another important question, in adMr. TRAER. I am willing to grant that. dition to this question of banking; and that is But those representatives are going home right the question of county indebtedness. If the artiamong the people; and I would ask, will not cle on incorporations goes into the constitution, they be as well informed of the wishes of the and is submitted to the people of this State, as people, as any men that could be elected. ? it passed the committee of the whole, leaving

Mr. HARRIS. They may be informed; but thât subject entirely open to the people, it may there may be a possibility that the opinions of be very important for the people to know the the representatives, and the opinions of the ma- views of senators in regard to that question, jority of the people, may not be the same with whether they are in favor of prohibiting or reregard to what they may have to do under this cognizing their right to vote loans to these corconstitution.

porations for purposes of internal improvement. Mr. TRAER. So far as I am concerned, and I merely refer to these matters to show that so I believe it is with the republican party, we it is important, after all that has been said, to are in favor of following instructions. And have a new set of men brought forward to aswhen they are instructed to go for a certain sist in carrying out this new constitution. So

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