and acting here as we do in the capacity, matters, that at home these schemes would be of a Convention, to organize or reconstruct the ventilated; that there would be no chance for the government, we are bound to take notice of corruption that exists in the Legislature; that the it. I cannot agree with some gentlemen representatives at home would be subjected to a who have suggested upon this floor that we have direct responsibility; that the eye of their conno right to charge corruption on the Legislature. stituents and of the whole community interested If that were addressed to us as individuals, I would be upon them, and that they would not should admit its force; but when addressed to us dare to enter into those corrupt schemes to which in our public capacity the case is different. Act- they lend themselves when further removed from ing as we are in the capacity of a Convention, the people, and not under their immediate inspec commissioned by the people to reconstruct and tion. Now, Mr. Chairman, yielding to this general organize a frame of government, and provide a demand, the committee have reported a provision remedy for the evils that exist, it seems to me we conferring a large amount of this local legislation are bound to take notice of public and notorious upon the local boards. If the Convention shall facts. In alleging that there is corruption in the see fit to adopt the proposition to transfer this Legislature, we do not by any means iutend to local legislation from the Legislature to the say that all of the members of the Legislature boards, then the idea of some check upon hasty are obnoxious to this charge. We know they are and inconsiderate legislation is suggested, and not, for that body has contained, and still does seems to be necessary. It was pressed upon the contain, doubtless, many honest men, men of committee urgently, especially in view of the integrity, men of character, who cannot be ap- action of boards in populous communities and proached by any dishonest or unworthy proposi- cities. It was represented that oftentimes schemes tion. But still that legislative corruption is a of corruption are rapidly passed through the board great and growing evil we all know and we all of supervisors, and before they can be enjoined feel, and the question arises, How shall that be by action of the courts, the schemes are executed, remedied? As was stated very clearly the other the money appropriated, and the people left withday by a gentleman of experience in the Legisla- out remedy. It was believed by the committee ture, on this floor [Mr. Folger], much of this that if some officer, having the power to interpose difficulty arises from local schemes, which give a veto, were elected by the people to preside rise to that system known as log-rolling. over the board, it would check hasty and A, from one locality, has a scheme which corrupt legislation. Now, the county superhe wishes to put through the Legislature. visor is an officer elected by the whole county. B, from another locality, has another scheme All the electors vote for him. He does not reprewhich he wishes to get through. A applies to B sent any particular locality, nor any particular to give him his vote, and B consents upon the interest, but he represents the whole county. He condition that he shall receive the vote of A; and sits as president of the board, and we may reaso scheme after scheme is every winter engineered sonably suppose that an office of that dignity and through the Legislature. Some of these schemes importance would be filled by men of character, are not only without merit, but totally corrupt; men of legal knowledge and experience; and they and it often happens, sir, that these schemes are could bring their knowledge and ability to bear to pressed through without the knowledge of the the advantage of the board in the important localities injuriously affected by them, or by such duties devolved upon them. Listening to the dismeans and appliances as to render opposition use. cussions of the board, and knowing the character less. It often happens, also, that the mes of and merits of the several matters before it, he these measures are wholly unknown to the great would be prepared at once, during the session of body of the Legislature. I believe there is a the board, to interpose a veto, in case of hasty, kind of courtesy existing among members of the injudicious, or corrupt legislation. He is not, as Legislature, by which it is understood that one suggested by the gentleman from Westchester member shall not interfere with the local schemes [Mr. Greeley], a mere figure-head; he has an of another, unless they become matters of discus- important duty to perform. It is true he does not sion and general interest in that body. The result vote except in case of a tie, and then he gives a is that some members vote for measures of which casting vcte; but the important function of the they know nothing, and others vote for schemes office as proposed by this article is the veto which they know to be wrong, in order to insure power. Now, it is submitted that if the comthe success of their own measures. A member mittee adopt the first proposition, to wit, the is charged with the duty of securing the passage transfer of local legislation from the Legislature of some local or private scheme, and it is expect to the boards, then it seems to be desirable, nay, ed by his constituents, or those interested in it, it seems to be absolutely necessary that there that he will do it, and if he has not sufficient in- should be some check upon their action. I am fluence or skill to engineer it through the Legis-aware that the people do not desire the creation lature, he is not considered worthy of their sup- of unnecessary offices; but they do desire and port. It places the representative under a strong demand that there shall be a purification temptation to avail himself of the log-rolling sys- of the Legislature. They desire to be saved tem, as stated by the gentleman [Mr. Folger] in from these schemes, which operate oppressively the discussion upon the question of the Senate. upon them, take the money from their It has been pressed upon the committee pockets and corrupt the Legislature; and that this local legislation should be devolved they are willing that any plan shall be adoptupon the board of supervisors. It is ed by this Convention that will remedy the evil. insisted that they would understand these local If in doing this it becomes necessary to create

another office, they will not complain of it. As, which he seems to undervalue.

I said that this far as I have been able to learn, and I have taken officer was a mere figure-head. His remarks considerable pains to ascertain the wishes of the practically prove that, as defined in this article, people on this subject, having conversed with he will be an officer of large promise and very them in different parts of the State, I have not found a dissenting voice on this question. They all say "Give us the county supervisor who will act as a check and balance to the board, devolve upon them the power of local legislation, and it will remedy a great and growing evil which now exists." It is for these reasons that the committee have proposed this county officer. It is not created merely for the purpose of creating a new office, or of making a change, but as an absolute necessity growing out of another change which is demanded by the people.

small performance. Now, then, I have no sort of difference with the honorable chairman of this committee [Mr. Smith], as to the expediencynay, the necessity-of a substantial check on the legislative power which it is proposed in this article to accord to the board of supervisors. My objection is, that there is no substantial negative -no real veto power. As the gentleman from New York says, this article simply provides that a majority of the elected town supervisors shall be necessary to override the county supervisor's veto; and this will amount to nothing. We know how these things are done. What are called "big things" are always "fixed" outside of the Legislature or board. They are arranged, and prepared, and bargained for, and settled, before they appear in the board at all. What is transacted there is a mere formality, necessary, certainly, to give legal validity to the scheme, but the work has all been done beforehand. We know who are to vote for it, and how much stock is to be represented by each vote that is given for it. Practically, it is understood how these things are. Now, I say, you have an officer bere who costs something, and can do nothing, or next to nothing. The whole power that should be

Mr. OPDYKE-I think the reason given by the chairman of the committee, for the creation of the office of county supervisor, should be satisfactory to the Convention. It is important, I think, that there should be a supervisory power over the action of the board, and this is a very compact and skillful method of accomplishing that end. I would only differ with the chairman in regard to the power he gives to the president. He has given him a supervisory power-he says a veto power. But it will be found in practice that it is not such a veto power as will prove effective. No time is allowed the president for the presentation of his objections, and none required of the board before it shall be authorized to act on such ob-given-in my judgment-the whole check on jections. Experience has taught me that if we venal and bad legislation by a board of superdesire any benefit from this supervisory power, visors should be: first, requiring due publicity. the allowance of time should be involved. The Every scheme involving railroads or other roads president should have at least ten days to pre--in fact, every scheme involving the county in a sent his objections; and I would go further, I new expense, whether by increased salaries or would give him an effective veto, such as we give laying out improvements here or there-should be the Governor. I would not permit the measure first advertised in the leading journal of each party or bill to be passed over his veto short of a two- in the county-advertised once a week for four thirds vote. In the city of New York the mayor weeks. Here is due notice to all concerned; and the of that city has the supervisory power over the proposers should pay for the advertising before board of supervisors which is proposed to be they shall be allowed to come before the board; given here to the president of all such boards. and then, when you come to the board, in my My experience has taught me that a simple nega- judgment, we should require the votes of threetive, which can be overborne by a bare majority, fourths of all the supervisors elected to be reis utterly ineffective. I should prefer, therefore, corded in the affirmative to pass such a measure. when we come to the proper section, to embrace You will have an abundance passed even at that; the condition that the president of the board you will find supervisors' legislation in excess, should have ten days in which to present his ob- even if you require three-fourths of all the memjections, and that it should not be passed over bers to vote for such measures, even with the his veto until ten days more had elapsed, giving requirement of publicity for four weeks before it the people of the county time to know what has can be considered in the board. That will be a been done and to interpose their views if they be- real veto, costing the people nothing; costing lieve it to be wrong; in addition to which I would only the projectors and schemers the expense of make his veto power effective. With regard to proper advertising, for which money should be this first section, before we pass over it, I shall lodged with the chairman of the board of superpropose another amendment to exclude from its visors (whom I trust the board themselves will operation the county of New York. That county, elect), who shall require and direct the publication as is known, in its jurisdiction is co-extensive of a proper notice in the leading journal of either with the city. We have there at present a dupli- party in the county for at least four weeks before cate government, city and county, co-extensive in it can be taken up and passed, and then only their jurisdiction, which can-with great pro- upon a record of the yeas and nays, by the vote of priety and great economy, as experience has three-fourths of all the supervisors elected. Give taught us be devolved on the city government alone. It is altogether unnecessary, therefore, to extend this power to that city.

us these checks, and you have some security against improvident and mercenary legislation; but in this county supervisor you have none, in Mr. GREELEY-I find that the remarks of my judgment; and I trust the committee will the distinguished ex-mayor of New York [Mr. vote to strike him out, and then provide Opdyke], substantially confirm the objection real, substantial guaranties against the legis

lation we deprecate, in the later sections of the article.

events, if gentlemen have schemes to make this veto power more effective, it is not to be made by striking out the matter here, but by increasing the effectiveness of the veto in other sections.

Mr. WAKEMAN-It seems to be considered we are to confer additional power on the board of supervisors, that they are to enact certain laws which the Legislature, under the present Constitution, are to enact or have power to enact. In order to pass a law under the present Constitution, it requires the action of two branches of the Legislature. One is competent to act as a check upon the other-that is the design-and the Governor as a check upon the whole. Now, it seems to me it is important that we confer some power on some officer that shall have some check upon the board of supervisors. Whether you call him a county supervisor, or some other name, he should have power to veto the acts and doings of the board of supervisors, and particularly so if we confer upon the board of supervisors this additional legislation. So far as expense is concerned, in my humble judgement, the expense will be less than it is at the present day. The county supervisor will be elected in reference to his qualifications for that particular office, and by making himself familiar with the duties of that office, the action of the board will be facilitated in such a way that the expense would be absolutely less than it would otherwise. Of course, it might be said that the chairman of the board of supervisors might perform all this duty, but he is elected from the locality, from a town, and to give him the veto power would hardly be consistent with the duties of the board of supervisors, and, therefore, it seems to me that this very proposition which encounters the opposition of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] is one that should be retained in some form. I care not particularly whether he shall be a county supervisor or a county judge, or what other officer, but I say there should be some officer whose special duty it would be to look into and revise all the acts passed by the board of supervisors, or at least for the supervision of it; and in the absence of any other proposition being introduced here, I shall vote for the report of the committee on this particular point.

Mr. BICKFORD-In the committee it was strongly felt that the board of supervisors would be a very dangerous depository of legislative power, consisting as it does of only one house, no second house to be a check upon it, unless there was lodged in some officer a veto power. I believe the committee were nearly unanimous on this point, with the exception of one or two members, who thought it might not be very dangerous; but it was the prevailing sentiment of the committee, and we cast about to see on what officer that veto power should be devolved. My own individual view was that it should be devolved on the sheriff of the county, and that the sheriff should be made a much more important officer than at present. I believed that he should be something like an English sheriff, a Scotch sheriff; that we should make him a judicial officer and a local executive in the county, and charge him with the execution of the laws in his county, and give him the veto power. But there was felt to be a very strong objection in the minds of some of the committee to that measure, and therefore a compromise was made. Some wanted the county judge vested with this veto power, and we have proposed to create this county supervisor, which seemed to be less liable to objection than any other scheme which presented itself. Now this officer, elected by the people of the whole county, sitting as chairman of the board, vested with a qualified veto power, will necessarily be an officer of great influence on local legislation. I cannot conceive it will be otherwise if the choice is sufficiently judicious and properly made, as we must presume it will be. Now, with regard to the effectiveness of the veto power which is here provided for, I beg the gentlemen of the committee to consider one moment, especially the gentleman from New York [Mr. Opdyke], who makes the objection that the veto power is not sufficiently operative or strong. As a majority of the board necessarily constitutes a quorum to do business, the requirement that it shall be passed by a majority of all elected is really more effective than the requirement that it shall be passed by a two-thirds vote. To illustrate: Take the county of Jefferson, for instance, where there are twenty- Mr. CONGER-I can hardly understand the two supervisors, a majority of the board to do nature of the objection made to the creation of business is twelve, while two-thirds of a quorum this officer as the permanent president for a year are only eight. Thus a vote of eight supervisors at least, of the board of supervisors. If I undermight pass the measure, but if you require a stand the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greemajority of all elected, it takes twelve super-ley] he objects to the expense of its creation. visors to pass a measure, and if there shall be Now I suppose that this officer would not have a eighteen present (and it is perhaps not to be ex- much higher rate of compensation allowed him pected that the average attendance will exceed than an ordinary supervisor, which, at the preseighteen out of twenty-two), two-thirds of those ent rate, is three dollars a day, during the time present would be twelve, and that number is a in which services are actually rendered. And as majority of all elected. We considered this mat- the board of supervisors rarely sit except in very ter, and we considered it would be a more effici- large counties, more than twenty or thirty days cient check to require a majority of all elected in the year, it is not easy to perceive that if the to the board than it would be to require two office is to be of any practical value, the cost thirds, as bills frequently pass by much less than would more than balance its real worth. Still it half of the members elected, and this requires a may be worth while to have the opinion of the majority of the whole after the president's objec- chairman of this committee, who has probably tions have been stated fully, and the measure re-investigated the comparative benefit and expense considered afterward. I trust, Mr. Chairman, to the people of the State, in the creation of this that this provision will be retained. At all office. To my mind, as at present advised, the

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expense seems a mere trifle. Mr. Chairman, con-, favorably by the committee, and the gentleman sidering that in the report that a week since was from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] shall propose a passed, we voted with only a few dissenting plan of that kind, I see no objection to it. The voices to incur the expense of increased salaries gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] sugfor members of the Legislature, amounting to gested that the veto would not form an efficient some one hundred and thirty odd thousand dol-check for two reasons. First, that it does not lars, or the interest at five per cent on nearly two provide for a two-thirds vote to pass an and one-half million of dollars of the State debt, act over the veto; that the provision is for a it seems to me to be a beggarly economy to come majority vote instead of two-thirds. I have here now and say we will not create an office no objection to two-thirds if the Convention which may cost the people of the county, at the shall think that would be more efficient. It is best, some five dollars a day for an average ser- also suggested by him that these corrupt schemes vice throughout all the counties of the State, at are arranged outside. I know they often are, but best, from thirty to forty days in each. The rea- does that afford any good reason why we should sons which are given by the chairman of this not give all the protection possible-that we should committee and his associates, seem to me to be not provide laws and all the checks possible to good and substantial reasons why this office prevent corruption? I apprehend not. Suppose should be created. If the local boards are now you take the city of New York; the board of to be invested with new power of legislation, if supervisors of that city, it is said I cannot say the creation of new rates and the adoption of with how much truth-is sometimes used for new measures that are of local interest corrupt purposes, that schemes not very creditto the people, is to be taken away from able are passed through that body. Suppose the the central authority at Albany, and transferred gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] should to the centers at home, there seems to me to be it as the chairman or president of that board very good and sufficient reason why the people of with the veto power, and that a corrupt scheme the whole county should be represented, as well should pass, would he not at once veto it? And as that the whole people of the State be repre- would not that veto form a check to the board ? sented in a chief executive office. The power of Would it not prevent that board from voting the veto residing in a supreme executive magis-away money at night, and putting their action trate is just as essential to the liberties of the beyond the reach of an injunction by appropriatpeople in this age as it was in the days of the ing the money before morning? It seems to me Roman Republic, when the Tribune of the people it would afford a very efficient check, and the exsat at the door of the Roman Senate, and though pense, which is the only objection made to it, he sat on a bench, his simple voice, raised with must be nothing in comparison to the expense the word "veto," aunulled all hasty, crude, and that would be saved to the people by the creation unfair legislation. So it would be here; if you of this office. I desire to say, further, that as desire to give the county boards increased facili- much as I feel the necessity of transferring this ties and increased power for legislating over the local legislation from the Legislature to the board, local affairs of the county, you should have I would not dare to transfer it without some one person, I do not care who he is, providing some check upon hasty and coror what his name is, who should be vested rupt legislation. I shall feel compelled, if this is with plenary authority, representing in stricken out, to vote against any transfer of this his person all the power of the people of the local legislation, because it is dangerous - it is county against the combinations of those who giving legislative power to boards which they do represent towns and subordinate interests. Never- not possess at present, except in a very limited theless, I should like to know whether I am in extent, and provides no check upon their power. error in supposing that the expense of this office, If the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] if created, would be a mere bagatelle in the annual casts his eye over the section providing for tl.e budget of the county. transfer of this power, he will see that it is proMr. SMITH With the indulgence of the com- posed to give boards very extensive power, and I mittee I would like to make a suggestion. In would not dare to devolve it upon them without reply to the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Con-providing some check. It seems to me, therefore, ger] I would say that the provision is that the that the whole plan must fall unless this or someLegislature shall fix the compensatiou, and as thing similar to it shall be provided. those boards will sit but a few times, probably, Mr. REYNOLDS-If this Convention shall in the course of the year, the expense adopt the principle proposed by the committee, could not amount to much, and it must neces- for transferring the local legislation from the sarily be a very small matter. I wish to Legislature to the county; it seems to me some make a suggestion or two in relation to the such officer as that proposed by the committee remarks of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr.is absolutely necessary. In our county we have Greeley]. He thinks that by giving publicity to thirty-three supervisors, fourteen of whom are the acts that are to be passed by the boards of elected from the city, and the balance from the supervisors, it would serve as an efficient check upon improvident and corrupt legislation. Now I certainly have no objection to a provision of that kind, and indeed I do rot know but it might be a very good one. It can be added, however; it is not in conflict with this provision which is now under consideration, and if this be considered

country. The strife with us always is to control the president of the board, who has the appointing of the committees, and you will find the county treasurer, and the sheriff and the county clerk all combining to get committees appointed to examine their several accounts, that would look with as favorable an eye as possible upon them-and

Mr. VEEDER I move to amend section one of this article by substituting section 1 of article 10 of the present Constitution.

their effort is to control the appointment of commit-ercised by an officer chosen as this county supertees in the interest of these officers. There is no visor is to be chosen, that there will not always veto power, nothing to prevent persons exercising be a judicious exercise of the veto power. He is the power of appointing committees, and the result necessarily a politician. Supervisors of towns are of it has been very disastrous to our county. In not now elected so much from their activity in more than one instance, the county treasurer has political affairs as from the fact that they will succeeded in covering up defalcations by securing best represent the interests of the respective the appointment of committees favorable to his towns. But when you come to elect a county interests, by that sort of combination, which has supervisor upon the county ticket, he will be brought our county into heavy losses. The county nominated with respect to some political question, treasurer preceding the present iucumbent was and he will always be an active partisan on the a defaulter to a large amount of money, some one side or the other, just as the political majority forty or fifty thousand dollars, I believe, which happens to predominate in the county. I trust, could not have possibly occurred if there had Mr. Chairman, that this constitutional provision, been a committee appointed to examine his which cannot be repealed by the Legislature, accounts who really did their duty. It seems to conferring this large power of legislation me that if this plan is to be adopted, some officer upon the board of supervisors will not preshould be provided by law or by the Constitution vail. I trust also that this provision in who shall have a veto power, and stand outside of relation to the election of a county all the town influences and cliques that may be supervisor will fail. Now gentlemen have said, got up in the boards of supervisors of our State. that so far as we had any indication of the Mr. WICKHAM-It seems to me to be con- wishes of our constituents it was to take away ceded that the necessity for creating the office from the State Legislature all this power of local of county supervisor depends upon the question legislation. I do not so understand the indication whether this power of legislation is conferred of the popular will. My own impressions are upon the board of supervisors. I trust before we that it was the desire of the people that the pow get through with this report these increased ers of the Legislature should be restricted to powers which are enumerated in the report will the enactment of general laws, and when it is not be thus conferred. We have already adopted thus restricted I think we shall have accom. an article declaring that all legislative power plished everything we are desired to accomplish shall be vested in the Senate and Assembly, in that direction. and it seems to me that if any local legis lation is devolved upon the respective boards of supervisors it should be confined to those subjects and to those matters to which the power may be conferred by the Legislature, as provided in the present Constitution. It seems to me that "SEC. 1. Sheriffs, clerks of counties, including when we adopt this system for the purpose of the register and clerk of the city aud county of avoiding the evil of excessive legislation by New York, coroners, and district attorneys, shall our State Legislature, we are in great danger be chosen by the electors of the respective counof multiplying the evil of local legislation ties once in every three years, and as often as when we confer the exclusive power upon vacancies shall happen. Sheriffs shall hold no a larger number of local bodies. There is another other office, and be ineligible for the next three objection to this provision. The State Legislature years after the termination of their offices. They is organized with relation to a fair representation may be required by law to renew their security of the inhabitants. Each county is represented in proportion to the number of its inhabitants. If you look over the tables of the population of the towns in the different counties, you will find there is a very great disparity in that respect. In my own county there is one town that contains a little over five hundred inhabitants, and there is another town which contains a population of some ten thousand. It is true there is a section con-defense." tained in this article which provides for equalizing Mr. BARKER-If the gentleman from Kings the representation, but how can it be equalized [Mr. Veeder] will permit me, I move to strike out with such an inequality of population in the re-all after the words "county clerk," in the third spective towns? I find that in the county of Ulster there is one town which has about five hundred inhabitants, or something like that, and another town which has some seventeen thousand. How can you equalize the representa- Mr. VEEDER-I accept that amendment, tion without creating boards which will be quite which virtually brings in the present article of the too large for the purposes for which they are Constitution. I have looked over somewhat hasrequired? There is another objection to the cre- tily the article as reported by the committee, and ation of this office of county supervisor. It is I find in it, to my mind, several objections. The contended that it is necessary we should have this committee will observe the section provides, as officer to exercise the veto over the power reported by the committee, for the removal of all of the board. I fear, if this power is ex-lofficers enumerated therein by the Governor, upon

The SECRETARY proceeded to read the section, as follows:

from time to time; and in default of giving such new security, their offices shall be deemed vacant. But the county shall never be made responsible for the acts of the sheriff. The Governor may remove any officer in this section mentioned, withiu the term for which he shall have been elected, giving to such officer a copy of the charges against him, and an opportunity of being heard in his

line, and insert in lieu thereof section 1 of article 10 of the Constitution, after the word "coroners." Then it will read substantially as this section does, and will be debatable.