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The CHAIRMAN In the opinion of the Chair, resolutions are not now in order.

ted one-quarter each year. My preference is for will be in order to test the sense of the committee the proposition as I made or proposed to make by a resolution upon each of these propositions it, to have one-quarter of the Senators elected separately; first, that the sense of the committee each year. So many of the gentlemen have sug-be taken upon the question of a four-year senagested to me on this floor their preference for the atorial term; second, whether the terms of office election of one-half of the Senate, that I have of one-quarter or one-half of the Senators shall changed the proposition and presented it in the expire each year. form I have read. It will change the Senate by an election every two years, one-half being elected every two years instead of one-quarter each year, thus taking four years to change the entire body of the Senate. At this late hour I will not further detain the committee, because the proposition is so simple that all can comprehend it; and I will leave it for the committee to dispose of as they, in their judgment, shall deem expedient.

Mr. HARDENBURGH - I move that the committee do now rise. We have performed arduous labors this day, and it is well known that we have been invited out.

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Mr. FOLGER-I rise to a point of order. motion for the committee to rise is not debatable. The CHAIRMAN—The point of order is well taken.

The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Hardenburgh, and it was declared lost.

Mr. BOWEN-Are amendments now in order? The CHAIRMAN-In the opinion of the Chair another amendment is not now in order, there being two pending.

Mr. LANDON-Before a vote is taken on this question I would like to ask the gentleman from Niagara [Mr. Flagler] what his object is in directing the Legislature to make a new apportionment of the senate districts, unless it is to supersede the apportionment which has already been adopted by this committee? If that is the object I would like to have it expressed.

Mr. FLAGLER The proposition I have made I think is very plain. I think that any word of explanation on my part is unnecessary. If the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Landon] will recall the words of that amendment he will observe that it proposes to strike out that part of the proposition as it stands before the committee and insert a proposition to refer the question of the appor. tionment of the districts to the Legislature. I do it because I prefer that method. I think it better it should be thus referred to the Legislature than to take the time of this committee and encounter the difficulties which would surround it if we attempt to make this arrangement.

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Mr. FLAGLER-I would suggest that if the Mr. BALLARD-While I agree with the propchange I have made does not meet the approba-osition of the gentleman from Niagara [Mr. Flagtion of gentlemen, it would conform to my own ler], in regard to the terms of office and classififirst choice to have it passed as I originally drew cation, I do not agree with him in that portion of his it. If there is any difficulty I ask for a division amendment which strikes out the present senate of the question. districts of this State. It is that part of my amendMr. LEE-The amendment I proposed was to ment which was acted upon last night and adopted. try the question before the committee, as to The proposition of the gentleman from Niagara whether they prefer to elect one-quarter of thirty- is to strike that out. It would have suited me two Senators every year, or one-half every two and I think a majority of the Convention better, years. I should prefer to have one-quarter elected if his proposition, instead of striking out, had every year distributed throughout the State. been to add after the words "each of which Mr. BICKFORD-Could we not have unan-senate districts shall choose one Senator," imous consent that this amendment be these words: "who shall be chosen at the withdrawn to take a vote on the amend-general election which shall be held next after ment offered by the gentleman from Rich- the adoption of this Constitution, sixteen of mond [Mr. E. Brooks]? If it is determined whom, namely, those elected in the first, third, by the committee that there shall be thirty-fifth, seventh, ninth, eleventh, thirteenth, two Senators, and as this proposition will fifteenth, seventeenth, nineteenth, twenty-first, take the county of Jefferson from the third twenty-third, twenty-fifth, twenty-seventh, twendistrict, had we not better take a vote on the ty-ninth and thirty-first districts, shall hold amendment I refer to, so that we can consider two their offices for two years, and those elected from propositions which are really germane to the sub- the second, fourth, sixth, eighth, tenth, twelfth, ject at the same time? fourteenth, sixteenth, eighteenth, twentieth, A division of the amendment was called for. twenty-second, twenty-fourth, twenty-sixth, Mr. BARKER-It seems to me that as twenty-eighth, thirtieth and thirty-second disthe substitute offered by the gentleman from tricts, shall hold their offices for four years, and Cortland [Mr. Ballard] has been voted upon by every two years thereafter, beginning with the the committee and adopted, the amendment pro- sixteen districts first named, and then with the posed by the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. sixteen districts secondly above named, there Brooks] must fall, as it is not germane to any propo- shall be elected sixteen Senators, who shall hold sition that is left, and that another amendment their offices for four years from and including might be entertained by the Chair without the the first day of January next following their violation of any rule, because it is entirely oppo- election." I do not believe in meddling with the districts as now organized. It would be better, if we stand upon the single district system as now organized, and which apportionment has been made with full deliberation and care, to have a

site.

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opinion the amendment now pending is in order.

Mr. SPENCER-I wish to inquire whether it

think it wiser to conform to that amendment as suggested by the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] than to leave this matter to the Legislature. Mr. KETCHAM-The Legislatures have varied the apportionment provided for in the Constitu

four years' term of office, classifying the Senators in
the manner I have indicated. I call for a division
of this question so that the Convention may un-
derstand what they are voting upon; in the first
place, in regard to the term of office, and then the
next question is whether there shall be a distribution.
tion of districts as they now exist, or whether that
distribution shall be thrown over.

Mr. DALY-Do I understand the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] as willing to accept that portion of the proposition of the gentleman from Niagara [Mr. Flagler], making the term of office four years instead of two?

Mr. BALLARD - Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN announced the question to be on the first part of the amendment of Mr. Flagler, as follows:

Mr. DALY-Those exceptions confirm the existence of the general rule.

Mr. E. A. BROWN-I simply rise to ask a question so that there will be no misunderstanding about it, whether the amendment of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] as adopted last night, includes the senate districts precisely as they were formed by the Legislature of 1866. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair so understands

it.

Mr. BICKFORD-I apprehend that it is "Insert after the words, 'the State shall be di-equitable to adopt this amendment and to vided into thirty-two senatorial districts, each one have a new apportionment for this reason. of which shall choose one Senator,' the follow- We propose a different basis of suffrage ing and the term of office shall be four years."" The question was then put on that portion of the amendment, and it was declared carried. A count was called for.

Mr. BICKFORD—I hope that the amendment will be voted down.

The CHAIRMAN-Discussion on the question is not now in order.

Mr. BICKFORD-I supposed it had been held that it was.

Mr. BALLARD-Let me inquire if an affirmative vote on the proposition strikes out the present apportionment.

Mr. FLAGLER-It will not. I do not desire to have any misunderstanding with regard to this. If this clause is adopted, the term of office will be four years.

The question was again put on the first part of the amendment offered by Mr. Flagler, and it was declared adopted.

Mr. FLAGLER-I move to amend the amendment of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard], as it now stands, by striking out all after the words "four years," just adopted, and inserting the following, which is the second clause of the amendment I offered:

in the present Constitution from what has heretofore existed. The present apportionment was made on the basis of excluding from the representative population of the State aliens and persons of color not taxed. Now we propose to admit persons of color to suffrage, and of course equity requires a different apportionment. That is all I have to say on the subject.

The question was put on the second part of the amendment of Mr. Flagler, and, on a division, it was declared lost.

Mr. BALLARD-Is an amendment now in order?

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair will inform the gentleman that an amendment is not in order, as we have not yet got through with the amendment of the gentleman from Niagara [Mr. Flagler].

The SECRETARY proceeded to read the third portion of the amendment of Mr. Flagler, as follows:

"At the first election under said arrangement of districts, the Senators elected in districts having odd numbers shall vacate their offices at the end of two years, and those elected in districts having even numbers at the end of four years, and as vacancies occur by the expiration of term, they shall be filled by the election of Senators for the full term of four years."

"The Legislature, at its first session after the adoption of this Constitution, shall make this division into thirty-two senate districts, which shall be numbered from one to thirty-two inclu- Mr. EVARTS-I take it that on this question, sive. Said districts shall be formed of contiguous those who vote affirmatively, prefer a division of territory, and as near as may be an equal num- the Senate and an election of Senators biennially, ber of inhabitants, excluding aliens, and no county and those who vote negatively prefer to divide shall be divided in the formation of a senate the Senators into four classes and to elect onedistrict, except such as are equitably entitled to quarter annually. more than one Senator."

Mr. ALVORD-I shall vote against this propo

Mr. CORBETT-The point I desire to ascertain sition for this simple reason. I am opposed, is whether the adoption of that amendment will and decidedly opposed (and if gentlemen strike out the apportionment presented in the will recollect they will see that that must amendment of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. be the feeling of the Convention), to a Ballard]. portion of this State electing a portion of Mr. FLAGLER-This amendment does; but I the Senate at different times and periods from would be glad to have the vote of the committee the entire State electing a Senate. I am in favor on that point to test its pleasure. of a four years' continuance in office of a Senator.

Mr. DALY-I have but one suggestion to I am in favor of it because it is the best thing we make in reference to the amendment. Hitherto can get, but I am not in favor of the western in the Constitutions of this State, the apportion- portion of this State electing at the end of two ment has been fixed in the Constitution itself and years and the eastern portion of it electing at the has not been determined by the Legislature. Ilend of two years after that.

Mr. FLAGLER-It does not propose such a division.

Mr. ALVORD-I only put this by way of illustration. You commence at No. 1 to elect at the end of two years, and No. 2 at the end of four years, then district No. 1 again at the end of six years, and so on. What I object to is an election over only half of the State at the same time for Senators.

Mr. CORBETT-The illustration of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] would be worth something if the odd districts were in one part of the State and the even in the other.

The question was put on the last portion of the amendment of Mr. Flagler, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 69 to 33.

The CHAIRMAN-The question now is on the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Richmond, Mr. E. Brooks, to the second section as amended.

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Mr. HATCH-I do not propose to take any appeal from the decision of the Chair, but it seems to me a very plain question that we are going over it again. Wo passed upon it two or three times this evening

Mr. BALLARD-This proposed amendment involves the overthrow of the vote last evening establishing thirty-two districts in the State. It is not true to the extent that has been stated, that there would be no election except every four years; elections would occur every two years. By laying that feature aside we lose the benefit of two years' experience in the Senate constantly, and it has been admitted that there was a need of experience in the Senate.

Mr. RATHBUN-I rise to a question of order. I would like to know what question is pending before the committee?

The CHAIRMAN-The pending question is the motion of Mr. Schoonmaker, to strike out the I propose the follow-word "thirty-two" wherever it occurs, and insert sixteen," and to strike out the word "one" and insert "two."

Strike out the word "thirty-two" wherever it occurs and insert "sixteen." Amend direction as to number of Senators for each district by striking out "one" and inserting "two," making two Senators from each district, the Legislature so to regulate the term of office that eight Senators shall be elected every year.

Mr. FLAGLER-I rise to a point of order, that the amendment of the gentleman is in direct conflict with the affirmative vote on the amendment already adopted.

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of opinion that the amendment can be received.

Mr. RATHBUN-Did the Chair decide that the amendment was proper?

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The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of opinion it proper.

Mr. RATHBUN-Then I submit that there is no question before the Convention, that the gentleman [Mr. Ballard] is wrong, and there can be no appeal.

Mr. BALLARD-I am arguing the question of the amendment, not the question of order.

Mr. RATHBUN-The gentleman is arguing that it is re-opening the decision of the Convention upon his amendment. That is his argument

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair understands that he is arguing the impropriety of the committee adopting the amendment.

Mr. RATHBUN-That is an argument against the decision of the Chair. [Laughter.]

Mr. BALLARD-When the vote is taken it ought to be understood by the committee what the effect of adopting this amendment of the gentleman from Ulster [Mr. Schoonmaker] will be. It will be to overthrow the thirty-two or single district system, and to adopt the sixteen district system.

Mr. BARKER-I do not rise to make a speech, so gentlemen need not put on long faces. I voted for the term of four years with the expectation that before the subject was disposed of the other propositions which bear upon the amendment would be considered. I think electors should be allowed to participate in the choice of Senator oftener than once in four years. The dividing of the State into small constituencies, and then silencing the voice of the people for four years, so that it would not be heard in one of the representative departments of the government, I say, is an injustice. If we had the large districts, and had four Senators in each, and elect Mr. SCHOONMAKER-I did not intend say. one every year, then each elector in the district ing a word on this subject, but inasmuch as others could vote and his sentiment would come fresh into have spoken on it I wish to state the object of it. the Legislature each year. Now, I wish that It is now in contemplation, as I understand it, to this amendment as proposed may be adopted. have the term of the Senator four years, and to Then in each two years as they succeed have an election every two years for sixteen Senuntil the Constitution shall be amended again ators, to have sixteen Senators go out every_two each elector may vote for a Senator, and he is years. My object is to divide the State oftener heard on the popular subjects which are into sixteen senatorial districts, giving two submitted to the people, and I beg delegates not to forget how often the popular issues of the day are changing, how often the people desire to be heard on this subject of representation in the Legislature of the State.

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Senators to each district, then having the term of office four years, and having an election in every senate district for one Senator every two years.

The question was then put upon the amendment of Mr. Schoonmaker, and it was declared lost, on a division, by a vote of 40 to 69.

Mr. SCHELLI beg leave to offer the following amendment to section 2 as amended:

Strike out after the words "four years," and insert:

"And shall be constituted as follows: An enu

meration of the inhabitants of the State shall be Mr. SCHELL-My attention has been called taken under the direction of the Legislature, in to the apportionment as reported by the gentlethe year 1868, in the year 1875, and at the end man from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] and which has of every ten years after the last mentioned year. been adopted by the committee. It will be seen And the Legislature shall, at the first session after that that is the same apportionment which has the return of the enumeration in the year 1868, maintained in the State since 1866, the Legislaand upon the return of every subsequent enumer-ture of that year having made an apportionment ation, apportion the State into thirty-two districts under which the Senate is to be elected this year. which shall be numbered from one to thirty-two In examining that apportionment, I find that it is inclusive, that each district shall contain as nearly unequal and unfair, and I will call the attention of as may be an equal number of inhabitants who are the committee to it and to the population citizens, and shall remain unaltered until the return which the apportionment represents, of which of another enumeration, and shall consist of con- I have made a schedule so that the comtiguous territory-no county shall be divided in mittee may understand it particularly. It the formation of a senate district except such will be seen, if the committee follow me, county shall be equitably entitled to two or more that the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, Senators. sixth, seventh, eighth and ninth districts have "The districts as the same are now constituted populations varying from 95,412 to 169,707 for shall remain until the enumeration and apportionment as herein provided shall be made and the first election under this Constitution shall take place in 1869."

Mr. A. J. PARKER—I move that the committee do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

SEVERAL DELEGATES-No! no! no!
The question was put on the motion of Mr.
Parker, and it was declared lost, on a division, by
a vote of 38 to 64.

Mr. SCHELL- Mr. Chairman

The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Schell, and it was declared lost.

its territory, making a total population for these nine districts of 1,094,720, giving an excess of 127,586 in those districts over the average which should be allowed to each Senator. The average representation is 107,126; so that the committee will perceive that in the lower part of the State, including nine districts, there was an excess of population of 127,586, being more than the representation of one Senator. The sixteenth, seventeenth, eighteenth, nineteenth, twentieth, twentyfirst, twenty-second, twenty-third, twenty-fourth, twenty-fifth and twenty-sixth districts contain an average population of from 84,655 to 111,531, making eleven districts represented by 1,065,397, showing a deficiency of 112,989 in these eleven districts, to meet the demands of the number requisite for representation. Thus it will be seen that taking the districts from sixteen to twentysix-eleven districts in the central part of the State-they show a deficiency of 112,000, or sufficient to make one representative Mr. SCHELL-I move now to reconsider the in the Senate; and taking the nine disvote which has just been taken on my amend-tricts from the lower part of the State, ment. In doing that I may be permitted to say they show an excess of 127,586, showing an I had the floor when the Chair was putting the excess of one representative. This is sufficient, question on my amendment. I was unfortunate in not being recognized.

Mr. BICKFORD-I offer the following amendment.

Mr. WEED-I move that the committee do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

The question was put on the motion of Mr. Weed, and it was declared lost, on a division, by a vote of 34 to 67.

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair did not hear the gentleman.

Mr. SCHELL-I now move to reconsider the vote taken on my amendment.

The CHAIRMAN announced the question on Mr. Schell's motion.

Mr. ALVORD-I rise to a point of order. Just before the vote was announced, the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford] offered an amend

ment.

in my judgment, and I think in the judgment of the committee, to show that it is an unfair and unjust apportionment. Whether it be done for political purposes, or for what purpose, I would not undertake to say, but at any rate, it has been a great cause of complaint on the part of those with whom I was associated, that the State at the time of the apportionment was unjustly and unfairly apportioned with respect to the interest of the party not in the majority in this Convention; and I do not think the majority of this committee will indorse that action which car

Mr. CONGER-I want to know if the gentle-ries evidence of its unfairness on its face. But there man [Mr. Schell], cannot move a reconsideration is another reason, one which has been adverted to and ask that it lie on the table.

Mr. ALVORD-I have no objection to that. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of opinion that the point of order is well taken.

Mr. TAPPEN-Will the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr Bickford], give way for the reading of the amendment of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Schell], and to move a reconsideration?

Mr. BICKFORD-I will if I do not lose my chance. [Laughter.]

The SECRETARY again read the amendment of Mr. Schell.

by the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger], and the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks], why this apportionment should be made at the earliest possible period. The census of 1865 has been universally condemned as not being correct, and in saying that I do not care to reflect on the distinguished official of the State government who superintended the making of it (for I do not think he was a party to the act), but those whom he employed to make the census in the city of New York so far neglected their duty that it is susceptible of proof that large portions of the

Mr. SCHELL-I did not.

Mr. A. J. PARKER-Will the gentleman from Outario [Mr. Lapham], allow me to ask him a question? What has that to do with the question now under consideration.

Mr. LAPHAM-When I get the floor I will answer the gentleman.

city was not canvassed at all by the census- | New York [Mr. Schell] allow me to ask him a takers. With the knowledge of that fact univer-question I would ask him whether he did not sally conceded I do not think this committee has last evening vote for the amendment of the gena right now to indorse and to perpetuate this tleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard], which was apportionment founded on that census for the adopted? remainder of the term for which it was made. Sir, I cannot conceive that it is necessary to urge to the committee that that census was fraudulent or unfair and unjust and oppressive to the city of New York. During that period those who were there from 1860 to 1865, and those who were familiar with the business activity of the city, know that during the three years down to 1865, property Mr. SCHELL-There is another mode of arrivincreased in value; that houses could not be rented ing at this, it strikes me, which ought to satisfy unless at large advances; that labor was dear; any fair minded man that this census is unjust that the population was large, and that every and oppressive on the city of New York. Taking department of business was filled to overflowing. the population of that city as returned in 1845, Persons gathered there from every section for the 371,223, and taking the population in 1850, which purpose of residence, hotels were filled, and every was returned at 515,447, shows an increase for means of accommodation was afforded by the city those years of 29 per cent; taking the of New York to supply the wants of others, such population of 1855, when it was 629,810, was the demand. But we are not left to mere shows an increase in 1850 of 20 per cent, conjecture on this subject. There are certain taking the population again in 1860, when it was data to refer to which will enable us to trace out 813,669, shows an increase on the population without any difficulty the population at that time of 1855, of 31 per cent, making an average for in the city of New York. I have taken the those four terms of 27 1-6 per cent, which would trouble to make a comparison of the votes in the show an increase on the population of 1860 to city of New York for some time previous 1865, of 221,046, making the population in 1865, to 1865, and I have gathered from those votes and 1,034,715. That is a plain proposition, and a matfrom the population existing at that time, the ratio ter of figures about which there can be no mistake. that existed between the population and the vote. But, sir, there are other matters connected with the Taking that data I have been able to fix almost city of New York, to show the progress of the peoto a certainty the population that existed in New ple, and from that we can also gather that there York in 1864, one year prior to the time of this has been an actual business increasing population census, and those who know the history of the in that city from 1860 to 1865. There is a class country know that from 1864 down to the time of institutions in our city known as savings the census was taken in 1865, the population of banks, which are the resort of people of moderate New York largely increased; and when I give the means, persons of moderate circumstances in life, population of 1864, I give it at a lower number than and I have taken occasion to refer to that class of that which existed in 1865. If the committee institutions in order to see whether there has will allow me, I will detain them but a moment in been any falling off in their business; for if referring to those data. The population of the 100,000 people had left New York in 1865, if our city of New York, in 1855, according to the census, business had become so bad, if the grass were was 629,810. The vote in 1856, the year follow-growing in our streets, if this silence came over ing, being the presidental vote, was 79,606, which the city, that class of institutions would have been showed an average ratio of voters to the popula- the first to have felt the effect of it. But, sir, I tion of seven and ninety-three one hundredths. In will read to the committee the result which I have 1860, the population, according to the census, gathered from examination of the deposits in the was 813,869. The vote was 95,583; the ratio was savings banks. In 1855 the average deposits in eight and fifty one-hundredths to a voter. We find the savings banks were $26,111,719.20. In 1860 by a reference to the returns of 1864, the presi- the average deposits were $43,410,090.88; showdential election of that year, that the vote in ing an increase from 1855 to 1860 of $17,298,the city of New York was 110,390. 371.68. It will be observed that from 1851 to Taking the mean ratio between the years 1855 1860 there was a large increase in the population and 1866, it would be eight and twenty-two one of New York of 31 per cent. As I said hundredths, which gives a population in the city before the deposits in the savings banks in the of New York in 1864 of 907,405. Now, Mr. year 1860 were $43,410,090.88, and in 1865 they Chairman, is there any member of this committee had reached the sum of $72,928,854.59, showwho can believe with this data before him, that ing an increase in that class of business of the population of New York receded from 1864 $21,518,763.71. If New York had been in that to 1865 some two or three hundred thousand? bad state when the population was falling off and If there is any doubt about the fact that it did business paralyzed, would it be possible for that not recede from the population of 1860, 813,669, class of our citizens, including the mechanics and there is no doubt in my mind that the candid ex-men of small means, to have made that large sum aminer would come to the conclusion according to of money and deposited it in the savings banks? this data that the population in 1864 was 907,405, There are other means of reference which I will and it could not have diminished in the following year upward of 200,000.

Mr. LAPHAM-Will the gentleman from

call the attention of the committee to. I hold in my hand a statement showing the taxes and expenditures of the city of New York during those

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