committee desire is to relieve themselves from that responsibility. Now, we must have a conclusion some time. The gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] in his remarks pretended to say how it should be done, but he failed to offer any proposition which might effect this end.

Mr. ALVORD-I merely wish to suggest to the gentleman that I will draw up a resolution if he desires, but I supposed it should come from the committee, rather than from me.

proposed we should limit the debate in the Committee of the Whole to twenty minutes to each proposition; after that, when it comes into Convention, there will be five minutes for two persons, who wish to speak on amendments to the proposition. It seems to me we must have some limit. Upon putting this motion I call for the ayes and noes, for the purpose of relieving the committee, at least, of the responsibility for delay.

the business of the Convention; and I will go in favor of the proposition if the gentleman will reduce it into form so that there shall be debate upon each one of the sections in this article, that debate to be longer or shorter, as the interest of the article may indicate; and the speeches in regard to the matter shall be limited to a time certain, so that in the aggregate of the time there shall be a fixed time upon which we can come out of Committee of the Whole, with the privilege, in each individual case, when upon each Mr. MERRITT-Under the existing rule section, the amount of time shall have been when we come into Convention, debate will be consumed in debate, there shall be opportunity of allowed pro and con, by two persons five minutes laying on the table of the committee amendments upon each proposition. I understood some gento the proposition without debate, and that the vote tleman here who was in the minority, intimated upon the incoming of the matter in the Conven- that it would be well to limit the debate in tion shall be taken with debate, if the Convention Committee of the Whole for the purpose of going see fit, and without the interposition of any amend-over this article. It was with that view that I ment other than has been before the Committee of the Whole. In this way a fair examination of the article under consideration will have been had, and we shall have been enabled to speak to each and every section. But under the arrangement of the proposition of the gentleman as it was on the report of the Committee on Suffrage, we never got beyond the beginning in the Committee of the Whole and we merely double the work on it, so that in fact, in Convention, as well as in Committee of the Whole, we double the labors of the investigation of the different matters connected with the report. Now, my idea, and I think it is according to the strict parliamentary practice which has been had heretofore, in regard to these matters, and will facilitate business, is to determine in regard to each section, how much time shall be employed in Committee of the Whole giving opportunity for all amendments that may be necessary, ending with the aggregate of time thus employed upon the bill in Committee of the Whole, and on which they shall conclude their labors; so they will be enabled to report affirmatively upon each and every proposition, and then come into the Convention. The Convention, under a previous rule, if they desire it, have entire control of the matter, confining the action of the Convention, so far as the amendments are concerned, directly to matters which have been proposed in Committee of the Whole. This manner of proceeding will facilitate business in regard to this matter; and if adopted in regard to every one of the bills before us, will very much shorten the time of our labors.

Mr. MERRITT-I only desire that the committee shall conclude discussion upon this article. I regret exceedingly

Mr. M. L. TOWNSEND-Why not go into committee now for the next hour and a half for discussion on this question?

Mr. SCHOONMAKER-I move to lay the resolution on the table.

Mr. GREELEY-I ask the ayes and noes on that.

Mr. FOLGER-I move the previous question upon the adoption of the resolution, and I suppose that will take precedence of the motion to lay on the table.

The PRESIDENT-It does take precedence. The question is shall the main question be now put?

Mr. E. BROOKS-Before the Chair puts that question I submit, as a point of order, unless we have a rule that is not within my own mind, as a member of the Committee on Rules, that even after the previous question is moved, before there is a second, it is in order to lay on the table.

The PRESIDENT-The Chair does not so understand the rule.

The question was then put on the motion for the previous question, and it was declared carried.

The question was then put on the adoption of the resolution offered by Mr. Merritt, and, on a division, it was declared lost by a vote of 26

to 60.

The Convention then resolved itself into the Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc., Mr. FULLER, of Monroe, in the chair.

The CHAIRMAN-The pending question is upon the amendment offered by way of substitute Mr. MERRITTI regret exceedingly that by by the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Parker], to the offering of a resolution looking to the facili- the amendment of the gentleman from Richtating of business in this Convention I should so mond [Mr. E. Brooks], as amended upon the disturb the ordinary peaceful and quiet and lamb-motion of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballike gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Town-lard], in committee.

send]. I regret exceedingly he should be so dis- Mr. A. J. PARKER-I ask that the question turbed. The only desire of the committee is to may be divided on the first part of the proposifacilitate business, and any mode that will tend to tion, and voted upon separately.

that end will meet our hearty concurrence. We The SECRETARY read the first proposition as do feel to a certain extent responsible for follows:

urging forward aetion upon this report. All the

SEC. 2. The Legislature for 1868 shall divide

the State into eight senate districts, to be num-it. It must not be forgotten that in regard to the bered from one to eight inclusive, each district to contain, as nearly as may be, an equal number of inhabitants excluding aliens. No county shall be divided except it shall contain a greater population than is necessary for one senate district.

Mr. HATCH-That has been voted down practically, once.

Mr. BARKER-Will my colleague allow me to ask him whether he has heard any gentleman suggest that?

Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I would be glad if the gentleman did not put his question so directly, because the answer might implicate some gentleman on this floor.

Mr. BARKER-I apprehend any gentleman will excuse my colleague.

Senate of this State the characters of these gentlemen present a picture that is one-half of the history of the State. I admit they are characters to be reverenced and respected. But do gentlemen expect to return to a system by which those characters were sent here? Do they expect to have a Senate which is elected by the The CHAIRMAN-I think not. The ques- property holders only? Are they looking for a tion is on the first part of the amendment. conservative body elected by the tax payers only? Mr. VAN CAMPEN-There has been a good I imagine the body they are looking for can deal of discussion upon the question upon which only be obtained in that way. Do they propose we are now about to vote-the question between to go back to that system? No gentleman prosingle districts and large districts. The ground poses in terms to do that. But I suspect, if they has been pretty thoroughly gone over. Gentle-were to avow their real sentiments, they would men on both sides have assumed their positions say they would be willing to return to that if with a great deal of confidence. I might satisfy they could. myself if I voted "yea" or "nay" on the proposition. But as the question is one of so much importance that it underlies the whole system of our government, and the arguments which have been adduced here are of that character, in my opinion, I therefore take this occasion to express my entire dissent, not only from the proposition, but from the arguments which have been offered in support of it. In my opinion, if there is any one principle that is, or should be well set- Mr. VANCAMPEN-It is claimed here, you tled, it is the principle of single districts. should elect men that would not be influenced by For the purpose of this discussion it has been con- minor considerations. I ask if you can correct ceded that the Legislature should be organized with that evil by electing them from a district as large as a Senate and Assembly. For the further purpose our judicial districts? Not at all. Any gentleof this discussion it has been conceded that an man familiar with the machinery that is used in Assembly should consist of about 128 members, a making nominations will tell you, you cannot little more or a little less; that the Senate should correct the evil at all. It necessitates this thing; consist of 32 members. If those questions are it establishes a central clique, and all nominations conceded, in my judgment the work of this are figured out by that central clique, and any Convention upon that question is settled. The gentleman who wants a nomination will have to balance of the work becomes a logical con- apply to that clique. It is no new thing. It is done clusion established upon these premises. already; what would be the result of it? Mr. A., If we have settled that 105, 000, electors who wants a nomination in another district, would in this State are entitled to one member you have propose himself to the central head, and the real settled the whole question. All that is left to effect would be in my district, the Buffalo Express this Convention after that, is the apportioning of would tell us who wanted to be nominated here these districts, contiguity of territory, contiguity not there, or there. That is the way the system of electors, the creation of counties, and the sub- would work. The whole work would be laid out division of counties into political divisions of the by the central head, and very likely as it was laid State. The arguments offered here in favor of out it would be done. What were the arguments large districts astonish me. If they prove any that were used in favor of the large district system? thing at all what do they prove? They prove They were that it would make the Senator indepenus incapable of self-government. When I return dent of the elector. It was in effect to make the serto my district I must say that the arguments we vant independent of his master. It was to make offered here were such, that if they went to estab- the representative independent of the persons he lish anything, they established the fact that the represented. Now, we think a great deal of indepeople of my district are not able to determine pendence in the district where I live; but we who shall represent them in the Senate. I can do not think much of that kind of independence. say nothing else than that it is a proposition to It is not the kind we are after. If we have any take out of their hands by indirection what no servants we want them directly responsible to us. man dares attempt directly; and to do by circum- We do not want a divided responsibility; we do locution what they dare not propose by direct not want any Mr. A. or Mr. B., who will say, it is terms to accomplish. That is what it is. It is not my fault, but Mr. C.'s fault. We think we are no more, no less, than that. I respect talent; I capable of sending a responsible representative. respect learning; I respect dignity, and I re- If we are not, it is our own fault. We do not member in my boyhood days of standing in the ask you to sympathize with us, we do not ask Senate and listening to the addresses of your interference at all, in providing a system of gentlemen who addressed that Senate, not furnishing us with candidates. Now, you cannot only as counselors, but as gentlemen who dis- procure talent, you cannot procure dignity, you cussed a question as in a court of errors cannot procure ability in any greater degree in a with measured sentences and cadences. They large district than you can in a small district. impressed me in such a way I have never forgotten You cannot overcome local minor considerations

in that way. It is only by putting the responsi- most simple and direct, to accomplish the objects bility upon each of the districts and allowing them for which we are here. Except that the State of to select their men and making them responsible New York is a large property holder, our duties to that district. Then they will be faithful to would be extremely simple here. The fact that the district if they are vigilant, because the old the State has one of the most valuable properties maxim is none the less true now-"Eternal vigi- on the globe creates the necessity and puts duties lance is the price of liberty." What is it that upon us that are outside of the ordinary functions produces the corruption charged in this Legisla- of government. We as a State have departed ture? I am not here as an accuser, but it is said from the simplo functions of government; and very great malfeasances obtain here in this cham- whether wise or unwise it is not necessary to ber and the other, that are chargeable to the single discuss now, but such is the fact. The questions district system. No, sir, they are chargeable to growing out of that fact are such as are before us other causes. There were vicious provisions in to-day. The question of the representation very the Constitution, and they have brought forth their properly belongs to the simple functions of gov fruits. Sir, it is the mammoth corporations that ernment. While I go for giving those things to have grown up in this State that, among other the people to allow them to act directly upon them, things, have produced corruption here. It is the I am in favor of strengthening the Executive. franchises they have sought here that have brought I therefore am willing to incorporate the prohundreds and thousands of dollars to corrupt this visions which are precautionary in their character, legislation. Gentlemen come here seeking to and which, in their effect, must act in a conservaobtain franchises by which they can put fortunes tive way to the extent that States are willing to in their own pockets. It is a well known fact that incorporate such provisions with reference to the these corporations were here for that purpose, Executive. That is the place to get your conservaand those men who come here for the purpose of tive influence. The time has gone by for you to seeking their own profit and gain, think it perfectly get it anywhere else. You cannot do it. It is proper to rob these corporations if they can do it. among the things that are past; oblivion is over That is the principle that has manifested itself here. them. It only astonishes and surprises me that The whole system of provisions in that Constitution, gentlemen should come here and propose to return save these single districts, have operated to pro- to what has been so thoroughly condemned, duce that corruption. The system of canal I remember the condition of things existing management in this State, and the canal claims under the old system. They are not new to me; that have been put through here at five times they have not passed out of my recollection. If their value, has corrupted the Legislature. I ap-any political folly could be committed by this peal to this Convention that the statements that Convention it would be returning to that system. have been made are not true, and if, from their Mr. BELL-I am not a little surprised at the own observation and the common sense of this turn this debate is taking. I had hoped when Convention, they are not convinced that the the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] arguments I have given are true. I object to rose to a point of order, claiming that this was an having the large district system foisted on us equivalent question to that settled by the amendby false inferences. I object to gentlemen attain-ment of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Baling an end by circumlocution that they dare not lard], that the Chair would so rule, and that we attain indirectly. I cannot go home to my con- would have passed over the point of large or small stituents permitting such a measure to pass with- Senate districts and discuss some other section in out raising my voice against it. If it does pass, I the report. I have never been in the habit of cannot go home to my constituents and advise making a factious opposition when debate was them to submit to it, because it is based upon ar-closed and the question fairly taken and I was guments impeaching their integrity and their capability to manage their own affairs.

Mr. MERRITT-I would like to ask the gentleman a question. I would like to know how lately he has heard from his constituency, because I understood him to indorse this report, and I am happy to say to cordially indorse it.

found to be in a minority. I do not see the propriety of the majority-those who voted for the small districts-opening this discussion. I was among those, sir, that favored large senate districts, and gave my reasons for so doing; we approached a vote last evening, and the vote was largely in favor of the small senMr. VAN CAMPEN-The gentleman's state- ate districts, and with that I am content. ment is true, but I am very happy to say that II submit to the majority in all cases, but I do not have arrived at the conclusion which I give to see the propriety now of discussing this question you to-night after full consideration. That is the and discussing this same proposition any longer. answer I have to make to the gentleman. We I had relied on many gentlemen who came to me, must not pass upon a question fundamental to the and with whom I had conversed, to sustain the interests of this State without a thorough analysis large districts. Many of my democratic friends of all the propositions involved in it. This is a were in favor of the large districts; they talked government for the people and of the people. I for the large districts, but they voted for the have not lost confidence in the people. I trust small ones, and I do not think that we should every step we shall take, we shall go forward inti- now endeavor to change that vote. If they mating that we do trust in the people. I protest have sought to effect party purposes by it, as against these imputations that it becomes neces- far as the republican party is concerned cersary to go in any other way to the people tainly they are not to be injured in the matter; for these nominations, except in the most simple they certainly have an opportunity of choosing as and direct manner, for provisions that are many Senators by the small district system as

when He made mankind, ordained rules and regulations, which should regulate their connections and intercommunications with each other, and if we shall be enabled to ascertain those laws we shall have the best security for the formation of sound constitutional provisions. Now, sir, if

they had by the large district system, but I was not confining my action to any party purposes, and I do hope if any party seeks party advantages in this Convention that they will be disappointed, and I prophesy they will be disappointed. I have no such desire. Now, I am of the opinion that the question of senate dis- we examine the history of any statute we tricts was settled last evening; I do not see the propriety of passing over this same discussion and consuming the time of this Convention by precisely the same propositions; I do not think any further useful information can be obtained on this subject. I had said in the commencement of my remarks, that I hoped and had reason to believe when the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] raised the point of order, claiming that this was an equivalent question to that decided last evening, that the Chair would so recognize it. I will now raise that point of order.

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opinion that the amendment of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker] is in order as a substitute for the amendment made by the proposition of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks]. Mr. GOULD-Is it in order to offer a new amendment now?

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of opinion that it is not in order, there being two amendments now pending.

Mr. HATCH-I rise to a point of order. Mr. ALVORD-I rise to a point of order, that the gentleman [Mr. Hatch] is not in his seat, and, therefore, is not recognizable by the Chair under the rule.

shall find that the law maker, in the making of that statute, was coerced by facts and circumstances into the adoption of its provisions, and that in every case they were preceded by such measures of coercion. If we examine the feudal laws, which are now terms of opprobrium among us, we find that they had a legitimate genesis. Those laws were produced by a feeling of insecurity on the part of the governed which engendered an absolute necessity for protection, and so long as that necessity for protection existed, that protection could be afforded no other way than by the strong military chieftains who had the will and the ability to protect their liegemen but no one else. That law was proper; that law was in conformity with the higher law, which, as I have said, dominates all constitutional provisions and the enactment of all laws. But, sir, when new forms of protection were ascertained, when better modes of protecting individuals in their rights and property were discovered, then precisely the same law which originally coerced the enactment of the feudal law enacted its abolition. So, sir, slavery in its inception was a merciful institution; the laws of slavery were undoubtedly in accordance with the divine laws, for slavery had its origin in war; as it was formerly the cnstom to destroy the lives of all who were taken prisoners, it was certainly more merciful to spare their lives and keep them in slavery. When by the growth of better feeling among mankind there was found a nobler principle spreading itself abroad and ruling the conduct of men, that very same law which first originated slavery, that higher law required its abolition. Thus, slavery and its abolition were both the legitimate results of the same law of mercy. Now, sir, if there are general laws which govern all constitutional provisions, it seems to me that it is proper for us to inquire which of those general laws regulates the establishment of legislative bodies. It is easy to see that one of these laws requires that all the interests of the community that are represented shall have their proper representation in the legislative body. Sir, there are fishermen, mechanics and farmers, and there are merchants and there are persons of various trades and occupations, all of which require a proper represenNow, sir, I suppose in the discussion of ques-tation. The fishermen frequently require tions of this character

Mr. HATCH-I am in my seat for the present, with all due deference to the gentleman. I raise the point of order that the proposition now made by the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker is practically the same proposition that was voted down last night.

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair has already decided that point, that it was a different proposition. Mr. HATCH-Then I appeal from the decision of the Chair.

The question was put on sustaining the decision of the Chair, and it was declared carried.

Mr. GOULD-As there are two amendments already pending, I will, sir, with the permission of the Convention, read an amendment which I design at the proper time to offer as a part of my remarks, as follows:

"No person shall be allowed to vote for a Senator who has not paid a town, county or State tax within twelve months next preceding the election at which he offers to vote."

legislation; they require that those who live in Mr. FOLGER-Is that offered as an amend-other States shall be restrained from trenching ment?

upon their priviliges, and it is absolutely necesMr. GOULD-I read it as a part of my re- sary for them to have some one in the Legislature marks, and intend to offer it at the proper time. who is in sympathy with their rights, who underNow, sir, in my opinion, all laws both statutory stands the peculiar techincal language which they and fundamental must have a legitimate genesis. use, and who shall be able to translate that techThere is a law above all laws which dominates the nical language for the members of the Legislature. growth of customs and the enactment of statutes. So mechanics have a technical language, and Sir, the ancients had this idea, dimly, vaguely and they, too, require that they shall have persons mistily as was expressed by the "Jus Gentium" here who are familiar with that language, and of the Romans; but it seems to me, sir, that there in sympathy with their interests. Why, sir, is a nobler origin for this. It seems to me that God, if the technical language of a mechanic was

used in this House, such as "arbor," "slot" foundatious as a branch of the legislature, and and "feather," gag and "journal," very bicameral arrangements were thus established. few of the gentlemen here would understand So it was in Rome; the Senate was originally the what they meant. It is, therefore, necessary single legislature of Rome, and it was found that that they should have representatives on the floor the difficulties of government were so great, and who can interpret their meaning and translate the confusion of interests was so very bewildering their peculiar language into the general language in that city that by slow degrees and impercepti which is understood by all intelligent men. ble gradations the tribes acquired more and more So, sir, another law is, that men of different power, until the comitia tributa was recognized as casts of character shall be introduced into the a regularly established chamber of legislation, and Assembly. The old have experience, and they no laws could have any validity that did not have have the prudence which flows from it. The the assent of both of those bodies. Sir, when a young men are ardent and enthusiastic; they are vital cell is first formed it is a single body, but full of hopes, but they are apt to confound when we watch it under the microscope for a the ideal with the real, and from the very forma- little time a constriction takes place in the middle tion of their minds, they are well adapted to carry and it gradually grows greater and greater until forward the car of progress, which makes the cell is finally divided into two parts. This the nation go on from step to step in its career of exactly expresses what has been taking place in glory and usefulness. The man of business, too, our legislative arrangements. If they have begun has a peculiar habit of mind; by his very occu- with a single body, they have always ended in the pation he has cultivated his powers of observa-establishment of two bodies in the Legislature. tion in such a way as to arrive at a very great If we inquire into the causes of this spontaneous rapidity of action, while the student, on the other division, we find that national life springs from hand, looks upon subjects with a microscopic the interaction or the antagonism of opposing vision and is slow and careful in his calculatious. It is necessary that the legislative body—

Mr. HUTCHINS-I rise to a point of order. That I am unable to hear a word the gentleman utters. I hope we shall either adjourn, or that we shall be held to order while we are in Convention.

The CHAIRMAN-The point of order is well taken. The Chair trusts gentlemen will avoid discussions in a loud tone, in the chamber.

human interests; and these interests gradually and naturally group themselves around two distinct centers, which are called the rights of persons and the rights of property. They arrange themselves naturally and gradually into those two distinct divisions. Laws, like persons, must spring from a dual origin; they must, like human beings, have a father and a mother; they must be the resultant of two forces, not necessarily antagonistic, but different. Mr. GOULD-All these habits of mind and all For instance, sir, the plant is nourished by the these classes of individuals must necessarily be combination of earth and moisture. It is not incorporated into a legislative body, which nourished by earth alone or moisture alone, but by shall adequately reflect the popular views, feel- a combination of the two. Fruit has its genesis ings and interests. These classes of mind are out of the pistil and the stamen. Neither one is never found in any instance combined in a sufficient to produce it. Salt has a double origin. single individual, but they may be harmoni- It is formed in all cases from acid with a base. ously blended in a legislative body, so that The acid itself has a double origin. It is formed all these various characters can be brought to out of the combination of oxygen and acid. So in bear upon the elucidation of questions presented vegetables, animals and organic forms. Everyfor discussion in a way to enable the body to where and in every case all things have a dual arrive at sound and wise conclusions. In fact no origin. Legislation is no exception to this general intelligent conclusion can be reached in the law, but if we desire to bring forth fruits beneficial absence of these things. It follows, therefore, to the people we must provide a legitimate parentthat that scheme for the constitution of a Legis- age; they must spring from two chambers, one of lature which makes the most perfect representa- which represents the rights of property and the tion for all these interests, and for the bringing other the rights of persons. All the bicameral artogether of all these different casts of character rangements in Europe are based upon this principle. is on the whole the most perfect. But, sir, it is and the only fault with those arrangements is obvious that all these that I have already men- that they do not perfectly and adequately repretioned may be amply provided for in a unicameral sent them. The House of Lords in England Legislature. We find that where governments represents persons, and the House of Commons. have originated in unicameral Legislatures they represents the property of the nation. But, sir, have almost invariably (and indeed I may say the fault of the Constitution of England is that invariably, without the qualifying adjective) the House of Lords only represents one single resulted in a bicameral arrangement. We find this class of persons. Its fault is that it does not was the case in Athens; originally, there was a represent all the persons of England. So it is in Senate, and the government was lodged in that France, and in every Legislature of Europe and single Senate. But in the days of Solon the difficulty South America. Our own Congress has this of a single legislation began to be apparent, and double origin. The Senate of the United States by slow gradations the assembly of the people represents the corporations of the States themwas introduced and they took part in greater num-selves, and incidentally represents property, bers by successive steps in legislation, until at while the House of Representatives is properly a length in the days of Pericles the popular assem-representation of persons. Now, the misfortune bly of the Agora was fully established upon firm of our present Constitution is that it adopts the