Mr. RATHBUN-I do not see why the amend-tary of State, would have gone beyond the reach ment proposed by the gentleman from Erie [Mr. of the Legislature and the police of the city. Is Verplanck] does not effect the object and obviate it not better, after all, when the Legislature is in the objections which have been raised, and leave session to say "you are responsible for your the matter entirely clear for the Legislature. action as a Legislature; you are here for the They certainly know when they adjourn whether purpose of enacting laws, and we will hold a bill has been introduced five days prior to that you responsible for the laws you enact"; and if time. It removes the uncertainty and difficulty members of the Legislature shall fail to introduco of a prior establishment of the day for ad- bills a sufficient time before the adjournment, journment. I think it effects the object precisely. they must know, as a matter of necessity, that the Mr. PRINDLE-It seems to me the amendment Governor cannot sign them, and they will necesof the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Verplanck], is sarily fail. On the subject of allowing the Govliable to important and serious objection. It ernor to sign bills after the adjournment of might be quite necessary that a bill should be the Legislature, one gentleman [Mr. Chesebro] passed in less than five days, and I think the in- has said he has changed his mind on that subject. stance cited by the gentleman from Westchester I hope if he has, other gentlemen have not, be[Mr. Greeley], a short time ago, would be an in- cause that very restriction is a restriction I believe stance of that kind. It seems to me it is better that will affect the very point we have up now. to strike this section out altogether. It must be I shall vote for the amendment of the gentleman evident to every member of the committee that from Erie [Mr. Verplanck], and I shall vote again it is a very difficult subject indeed. None of the to strike out the whole section, for I believe that amendments seem to reflect the object desired, amendment is the best we have had on that suband the discussions here by gentlemen who have ject. Leave the Legislature to act as a Legisla had very large experience in the Legislature, ture. Let the Legislature be responsible for their show to my mind that the scheme is entirely im-action, and if an occasion arises in which it is practicable. Besides, it seems to me we must necessary to pass a bill or repeal a billhave some little confidence in, and leave some things to the Legislature. Now, if a bill is introduced within five days of the adjournment, it must have the almost unanimous consent of both branches of the Legislature before it could pass. Sir, if we cannot trust the large majority, almost the entire of the Legislature, that are elected here to take care of the interests of the State, we might as well abandon all hope of good government. Mr. WAKEMAN-If we are to have any restriction whatever, I am in favor of the amendment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Verplanck]. But it seems to me when the Legislature meets, it should be responsible for its action. We have already provided that no bill should be signed by the Governor after the adjournment of the Legislature. Now, when the Legislature is in session, let us treat it as a Legislature, and hold its members responsible for their action. I recollect in 1857 a bill was passed through the Legislature in good faith for a seemingly laudable purpose, and it turned out afterward that there was a fraud in it, and the person for whose benefit it was passed went to the office of the Secretary of State and was about getting a certified copy of that bill for the purpose of taking possession of certain persons, minors, when the real object of the bill was found out, and we repealed that bill within two hours after the time notice of the fact came into this chamber. It became absolutely necessary. A designing man got that bill through, the precise terms I do not now recollect, but I know when it was found out, there was an indignation in this hall that I had never seen the like of before, and the bill was repealed before the man could get possession of the minors and before he could leave the city of Albany. In that case, after finding out the design of that bill, it became absolutely necessary to take the step we did at once. Now sir, if we had been confined to five days by the Constitution of the State, that man under a certified law from the office of the Secre Mr. SMITH-I would like to ask the gentleman if the rule of holding members to personal responsibility is a good reason against passing this restriction, why it is not equally good against any restrictions upon the action of the Legislature. Mr. WAKEMAN-We must recollect the object for which the Legislature meets. They are [here for the purpose of enacting laws. That is their province, and of course we cannot meet all cases; it is impossible for us to tie them up. But it seems to me, sir, we are going a little too far. We have said a good deal in this hall on the subject of the corruption in the Legislature, and I believe it is right and proper to say it; it will have its effect on future Legislatures, I hope; but we ought to be careful we do not go too far. We must be careful that we do not tie ourselves up in attempting to restrict the Legislature. We must remember it is not the members of the Legislature themselves, it is the people behind the Legislature, who may want laws enacted, or have them repealed, and by restricting them too much it will not affect the members of the Legislature as much as it will the people behind the Legislature who will have necessity for legislation. Mr. CHESEBRO-I understand that the gentleman is in favor of striking out this provision entirely? Mr. WAKEMAN-Yes, sir. Mr. CHESEBRO-Then suppose there are one hundred bills placed in the hands of the Governor on the last day of the session, what will you do with them? Mr. WAKEMAN-They will see by having it understood from the commencement of the session that the Governor can sign no bill after the adjournment of the Legislature-members of the Legislature will conform their business to that action. Mr. CHESEBRO-But you are opposed to giving them power to do that thing. Mr. WAKEMAN-Let me go a little further, and answer the first question. I say that the Governor, understanding he cannot sign bills and those only, and they pass measures through after the adjournment of the Legislature, will the body of the Legislature, without any reflection make himself acquainted with important bills that as to what they are, and they become in that way are introduced and ought to be enacted, and will laws. I wish to state a single circumstance in be prepared to sign the bills that the Legislature contradistinction to the position taken by the gen. will pass. Now, all I have to say is, and what I tleman from Genesee [Mr. Wakeman]. I recolbelieve, too, that the people of the country are a lect a circumstance of this kind, where one of the little alarmed at our action here. A day or two most outrageous acts that was ever put on the ago I was attending the circuit for a single day. statute books of the State of New York, was I heard an eminent judge, a former member of passed by both houses and became a law, and the Convention of 1846, in his charge to the grand went down to the office of the Secretary of State. jury, make this a point to them on the subject of It was all done within three days, only two days the purity of the ballot-box. In referring to that before the end of the session. When it got down portion of the statute which requires him to there it was discovered to be an outrageous act, charge the grand jury in reference to violation of and a storm of indignation arose in the upper election laws, he took occasion to refer to the house of the Legislature here, such as I never Convention now in session, and referred to the saw before, sir, and it was almost instantly recorruption of the Legislature, and he made it a pealed; and when it was found out, and it came point before that grand jury to say that he was down to this house, every one was busy with their fearful, in correcting the evils of the past, we own affairs and desirous of attending to their own might tie up the people by restricting the Legisla- business, because the time of adjournment was ture too much, and I only speak of this as a single fixed; and although it was attempted again and instance, and that we ought to be careful how far again to get the bill forward, on the ground of we go on this point of restricting the Legislature. the outrageousness of the act, to be repealed in Restrict them as far as you can with propriety, this house, it failed, and it remained on the but let us be careful not to go too far in order to statute book, to the disgrace of the State, and it reach the points that have been raised here. We was a year before it was repealed, but it gave rise had better hold them responsible for their action, to a storm of indignation at that time from all and say they shall not be restricted to five days, parties. The Legislature came together the next "but when you are in session, whether it be the year and repealed it among the very first acts it first or the last five days of the session, be care- did. Make it at least five days after the introful what kind of laws you pass." duction of a bill before it shall become a law, and give the Legislature time to look at it in the interest of the public, and you will cure the entire of this evil. I trust, therefore, that the amend ment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Verplanck] will not only prevail, but that it will be retained as a portion of the Constitution; and then, in connection with the fact that the Governor is bound to sign the bills before the Legislature adjourns, we may have some remedy in regard to this very great evil of the past. Mr. ALVORD-I have had some experience in the Legislatures of this State, even back of the Constitution of 1846, and although the same provision which obtained in the Constitution of 1821 obtained in the Constitution of 1846, yet the practice under the former Constitution was different from the practice under the present. It had been the practice under that Constitution, sir, to have bills signed by the Governor before the adjournment of the Legislature. Every bill which was unable to receive the Governor's signature Mr. SCHOONMAKER-The object to be atbefore the Legislature adjourned was, as a mat-tained, as the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. ter of course, as it was supposed to be under the Alvord] says, is to prevent hasty legislation. It Constitution itself, a defeated bill; and, sir, my strikes me the object is not fully attained by the recollection of those Legislatures is that it was a amendment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Verperfect turnpike road from each house of the Leg-planck], because it does not prevent bills from islature to the Governor's room, and that there being driven through by force of the previous was just as much hasty legislation in those days question at any time. They may have been inas there has been in days subsequently. That troduced four or five days previously, and subsevery many bills were passed upon the last day quently may be driven through by force of the of the session-hundreds in number-at the so- previous question in a single day. If an amend. licitation of members following bills into the Ex-ment is in order I have one drawn which I would ecutive chamber, which were signed and came like to offer at the proper time, which I will read: back laws, because they would not be laws un- "No bill shall be passed in either house until less they received the signature of the Governor after it shall have been considered in Committee during the session of the Legislature. I do not of the Whole; nor shall the final vote on its pasbelieve, myself, you are going to get rid of this sage be taken in either house upon the same day difficulty by having the Governor sign the bills it is reported by the Committee of the Whole." before the close of the session to the extent you That is an amendment which will prevent hasty desire. But, sir, I do believe that the gentleman legislation, but the amendment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Verplanck] has hit the right from Erie [Mr. Verplanck] will not. method in this whole matter. We have too much Mr. GREELEY-I do not still understand hasty legislation. It is legislation which, at the whether it means five days in each house or five last hours of the session, has no one else to at- days in the whole Legislature [Laughter.] tend to it except the person directly interested in The CHAIRMAN-The Chair cannot inform it. Men get wearied out or get anxious in regard the gentleman except by reading the amend to their affairs, and are looking at thoselment. The question was then put on the amendment, the State will hold them to a strict responsibility. of Mr. Verplanck, and it was declared lost. Mr. SEAVER-I desire to offer an amendment, and I believe it will secure the end sought to be attained. If in order, I will move to strike out the section. The CHAIRMAN-There is an amendment now pending. Mr. BELL-I hope it will be reached immedi The SECRETARY proceeded to read the ately. amendment as follows: Add to the section, "And the Legislature shall at least ten days before its final adjournment fix the day of such adjournment." Mr. GREELEY-I hope the amendment will not be adopted. We have fixed in this Convention upon a day of adjournment, and I am afraid we cannot stand up to that. [Laughter.] I do not see the propriety of fixing it so that it cannot be changed because a few members desiring to embarrass the action of the Legislature, might render the adjournment very injurious and mischievous. I hope it will not be adopted. Mr. KETCHAM-Though we have fixed on our day of adjournment for buncombe, I do not believe the Legislature will do any such thing. We fixed our day, and gentlemen did not expect we would adjourn at that time when they fixed it; it was nothing but buncombe, sir. Mr. SEAVER-I suppose that it will not be necessary for the Legislature to fix Mr. RUMSEY-Will the gentleman from Franklin [Mr. Seaver] allow me to make a suggestion? If he will look on the next page he will see a provision that the Legislature on the day of final adjournment shall adjourn at twelve o'clock noon. The proposition will fit in there better than anywhere else. Mr. SEAVER-I think the amendment I propose will come in here better than in the place indicated by the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Rumsey]. Under this amendment, the Legislature will, at some period of its session, fix the day of adjournment, which must be done at least ten days before the day of adjournment. Now it works up to within three or four days of the time fixed; it finds that the time is too short, and then, or even on the day fixed for the adjournment, it can change the day; but it must be so fixed that it will be always determined ten days in advance of the time of adjournment; and this will give five days for the consideration of all bills, and that, I think, secures all that gentlemen desire. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Seaver, and it was declared lost. Mr. SCHOONMAKER-I offer the following amendment: "No bill shall be passed in either house until after it shall have been considered in Committee of the Whole; nor shall the final vote on its pas sage be taken in either house upon the same day it is reported by the Committee of the Whole." Mr. BELL-This will do very well for the rules regulating the manner of conducting legislation, but it seems to me it is not a proper provision for a Constitution. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Schoonmaker, and it was declared lost. The question recurred on the motion of Mr. Bickford to strike out the section. Mr. REYNOLDS-I thought there was an amendment pending, offered by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger]. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair has not understood the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] to have formally offered an amendment. Mr. WILLIAMS-I offer the following amendment: Add at the end of the section the words "except upon the assent of two-thirds of the members of that house." The question was put on the amendment of Mr. SEC. 7. No bill shall be passed or become a law at any session of the Legislature, except the same shall have been introduced at least ten days prior to the adjournment thereof, and in case any such bill should pass the Legislature and receive the approval of the Governor, the same shall be null and void. The amendment that I have offered is substan. tially the same as that offered by the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Verplanck]. The object of it is to prevent the introduction of bills just about the Mr. BELL-It must be apparent to every one close of the session, when there is a large amount that no amendment that we can introduce here of business lying before the members- say from will meet every change of circumstances that may 1500 to 2,000 bills, calling upon them for examiattend the legislative session. It is impossible to nation before they can give an intelligent vote. do so by a constitutional enactment. I think we The object of the amendment is to have a constihave spent sufficient time in endeavoring to per- tutional provision to prevent indiscreet, imprufect that provision. From the nature of the case dent and vicious legislation; and in my judgment it cannot be perfected; and the better way now, it is the duty of this Convention, if it is possible, after this vain attempt to amend it, is to strike to insert in the proposed Constitution a clause out the section and pass to something else, leav- which will hereafter prevent what has given the ing this to the Legislature, as it must be left in Legislature in past times a bad reputation. I the end. There are so many circumstances com- have had some little experience as a legislator ing up in the course of a session that it will be within these halls; and I know the fact that in impossible to say when bills shall be introduced, or the last two days of the session, during the seswhen they shall be considered, or when the sions that I was here, the clerk passed more final vote shall be taken. Other rules will laws than the body of the house, and it was no unsufficiently establish the principles of legisla- common thing to adjourn and leave this city, a mation, and we had better leave this to the Legisla-jority of the members not knowing even upon what ture. It will be safe in their hands. At all bills they had voted. Bills would be introduced events, they will understand that the people of within the last forty-eight hours before the ad The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Baker. and it was declared lost. The question then recurred and was put on the motion of Mr. Bickford to strike out the section, ard it was declared carried. There being no further amendment, the SECRETARY proceeded to read the next section, as follows: SEC. 7. After a bill has been finally rejected by either branch of the Legislature, no bill or joint resolution containing the same substance shall be passed into a law during the same session. journment-bills that the members proposing them or the projectors seeking to get them through the Legislature would not dare bring into these halls until they knew that the business had so accumulated before the body that they had not time to examine them. Then they would come in, and in the hurly-burly and confusion of that town-meeting, as one gentleman describes it, unanimous consent would be asked; and if the Speaker or the Clerk said it was granted, it was granted. If this provision that I propose is adopted, it will have this effect. The Legislature may keep on passing laws as long as they please, but no bill introduced within five days after adjournment shall become a law. I think that it is Mr. CONGER-I move to strike out the whole apparent to the intelligence of every gentle- section. This provision as a general ruleman in this body who has had anything to do The CHAIRMAN-The question is upon the with legislation, that all matters of impor- amendment offered by the gentleman from Ulster tance will be introduced before the last five | [Mr. Schoonmaker]. days of the session. It has been said by some gentleman Mr. BELL-I would like to ask the gentleman a question. Will not the removal of the restriction upon the session of the Legislature obviate this to a great degree? Mr. BAKER-What restriction? understand the question. I do not Mr. BELL-Will not the removal of the restriction as regards the term of the continuance of the session of the Legislature obviate that difficulty? At present the legislative term is confined to one hundred days. By our present Constitution we do not limit the time. Will not this obviate a great deal of this bad legislation that the gentleman speaks of? Mr. SCHOONMAKER-I move to strike out the words "or joint resolution." Mr. SCHOONMAKER-It has precedence over Mr. ANDREWS-I have no amendment to offer, but in my judgment it is not safe to allow that section to stand. I hope it will be stricken out. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Conger, to strike out the section, and it was declared carried. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the next section as follows: SEC. 7. No law shall be revised, altered or amended by reference to its title only, but the act revised, or the section or sections thereof altered or amended, shall be re-enacted and published at Mr. BAKER-I do not understand that the Con-length, and the act so revised, or the part or parts stitution of 1846 limits the duration of the session It limits the payment of the per diem allowance and that had the effect, I admit, to limit the session to one hundred days; but there is no constitutional limitation. The Legislature may continue in session six months. thereof so altered or amended, shall be repealed. There being no amendment offered to the section, the SECRETARY proceeded to read the next section as follows: SEC. 8. The presiding officer of each house shall sign, publicly, in the presence of the house over which he presides, while the same is in session and capable of transacting business, all bills and joint resolutions passed by the Legislature, and the same shall not be so signed until they are fully enrolled. Mr. CONGER-I move to strike that out. There is no reason in the world for requiring the clerical act of signing these bills by the Lieutenant-Governor and the Speaker of the house to be done while the house is in session and in the presence of the house. Mr. BELL-But in effect is it not so? Mr. BAKER-The effect has been that the body of the Legislature would not stay after their per diem stopped. That has been the practical effect in the Constitution. I allege that under my substitute the great bulk of the important laws will be introduced prior to the last five days of the session every year; and it is only that class of legislation which is sought to be got through for special occasions-such as amending some section of the code at the instance of some lawyer to produce some particular effect on a Mr. MERRILL-I hope the committee will suit that he is to try next week—that has been pause and reflect before it strikes out this section rushed in here within the last five days of the and deprives the honorable Senate and Assembly session-no, within the last two days of the ses- from witnessing the spectacle of the presiding sion; and some counselor-at-law somewhere in officer sitting in his seat and "slinging ink" over the State secures a clause that perhaps the bills. [Laughter.] The practice has been to changes the practice of the State so as to admit send the bills to the room of the presiding officer, or exclude some witnesses or some evidence. where he could take it leisurely with his coat off, That kind of legislation has frequently taken and run out his tongue, if that were his habit, in place in the Legislature within the last forty-signing bills. [Laughter]. It seems to me eight hours of its session. If this clause be that this has been carefully considered by the adopted, it will effectually exclude this; if it is committee and should not be stricken out without not adopted, it is apparent to my mind that this consideration. Convention do not intend to provide the remedy that I believe the people seriously demand, and that their interests demand. Mr. ALVORD-I have had the honor of being the presiding officer of both houses of the Legislature; and I have never signed any bills except in this house or the house above, except bills of those words was that there should be a quowhich passed on the last day of the session when rum of the body present, not a mere fragment of it was impossible to do so while the Legislature the house. That was the object-that there was in session. On such occasions they have should be a sufficient number of persons there to been brought down to my room; but in no other be "capable of transacting business as a legiscases during the periods in which I have had the lative body. If the words convey any other honor to sign bills. One great objection I have meaning than that, it is very easy to strike them to this section is that it devolves upon the presid-out and insert "while the house is in session and ing officer of either house, a very important and very delicate duty, and that is to decide whether the Legislature is "capable of transacting business." [Laughter.] Mr. BICKFORD-I move to strike out the words in the third line, "and capable of transacting business," and insert, "before they commonce lying round loose." [Laughter.] The CHAIRMAN-The gentleman will please send up his amendment in writing. a quorum present." That would convey the precise idea, as understand it. That is a mere verbal amendment, which I propose to make, and I offer that now-that the words "und capable of transacting business" be stricken out, and the words "when the house is in session and a quorum present" inserted in lieu of them. Mr. BARKER-Were the words put in there for any other purpose than of exacting from the house any other capacitity than that it was duly does it demand some other qualification? Mr. BICKFORD-Perhaps I had better with-organized and "capable of doing business," or draw it. [Laughter.] Mr RATHBUN-It was not intended to call for anything more than that there should be a sufficient portion of the house present to transact business. Mr. BARKER-I did not know but that it meant sobriety. [Laughter.] 10 bills of importance may thus be defeated, I hope the motion to strike out will prevail, and I hope the alternative proposition will not be inserted. Mr. RATHBUN-I am opposed to the amendment of the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger]. There is a kind of intuition, I know, in that gentleman; and I am not certain but it is perfectly reliable. Still, after a good deal of deliberation and consultation with some gentlemen of very respectable ability and of sound judgment | Mr. RATHBUN-I now propose that the words with the concurrence of the whole number, I" and capable of transacting business," be strickmust be excused from giving way from their en out, and the words "a quorum being present deliberate judgment to the intuition of the gen-inserted. tleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger]. It is very Mr. GREELEY-I hope the motion to strike easy to move to strike out; but it may be very out will prevail, but not the motion to insert. dificult to assign a reason for it. The proposition Because I can imagine a case where, several memis in the hands of the Convention, and I have not bers having gone away, a factious minority might the slightest objection to their disposing of it in defeat a very important bill, by simply running any manner which they may see fit; but I would out of the house, and leaving it without a quoprefer that some examination should be made and rum. We are about to decree that the Legisla some reason assigned, before they dispose of the ture shall adjourn at twelve o'clock on the day labors of the committee in that way, by a motion of adjournment; and if you put in these words, at to strike out, without reasons assigned. The con- eleven o'clock twenty or thirty members may run mittee were in pursuit of an object (which per-out and leave the house without a quorum, and haps is not fully understood by the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger], but which was to endeavor by such provisions as they thought would tend in that direction, to lay down, in all respects, a line of conduct for the Legislature that would tend to a regular order of business, by which there should be delibration and decorum; and the public business should be done in a public manner, and to this end their judgment was that the presiding officers of the two branches of the Legislature should put their hands to laws which had been passed, and which were, after due consideration, ready for the signature of the Governor, in the presence of the two houses, as the Speaker of the House of Representatives does it, and not in a corner. Now, sir, if it is wrong, it is very easy for the house to dispose of it by striking out, or by amendment, or in any other way. In regard to the criticism upon the words "capable of transacting business," I inquired the meaning of those words. I had heard rumors sometimes that legislative bodies, at certain hours of their deliberations and particularly during the last hours-the small hours of night-were thought not to be exactly fit to transact business. Whether that was or was not the intention of the words used in this connection, was a subject of inquiry on my part; and I learned that the design Mr. MURPHY-I do not know but this provision may be relevant and practicable, but I do not see how it is to appear that those bills were signed in the presence of the Legislature. How does that fact become known? Mr. GREELEY-By the signature. Mr. MURPHY-But suppose it was signed when the house or Senate were not in session? Mr. GREELEY-It would be a violation of the Constitution which I trust no presiding officer would dare to commit. Mr. RUMSEY-I suggest that if it was an act required by the Constitution, it would probably appear from the Journals that those bills were signed in the presence of the house. Mr. MURPHY-How will it appear upon the Journals? Mr. RUMSEY-In the same way that any. other fact transpiring in the house appears. The Clerk will put it there; it is his duty. Mr. MURPHY-I can understand, if the presiding officer should announce that he has signed such and such bills, or that he has refused to sign such and such bills, a minute could be made by the Clerk of that fact, and that that faet would |