amendment of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Tappen]. Mr. VEEDER-I said that if there was any opposition evinced to the gentleman's amendment, I desired to withdraw my acceptance. SECTION 1: Sheriffs, clerks of counties, including the register of the city and county of New York, coroners and district attorneys, shall be chosen by the electors of the respective counties once in three years, and as often as vacancies shall happen. Sheriffs shall hold no other office, Mr. ALVORD-The city and county of New and be ineligible for the next three years after the York is an exception in the way of population termination of their offices. They may be re- and wealth to any other county in the State of quired by law to renew their security from time New York. The duties of the clerk of that city to time, aud in default of giving such new secu-in regard to matters within the county, if added rity, their offices shall be deemed vacant. But to those of the register of deeds, within that the county shall never be made responsible for the acts of the sheriff. District attorneys, while in office, shall be ineligible to any other office. The Governor may remove any officer in this section mentioned, within the term for which he shall have been elected, giving to such officer a copy of the charges against him and an opportunity of being heard in his defense. Mr. VEEDER-I move to amend in the fourth line, after the word "in" and before the word "three," by inserting the word "every," so it will read as it does in the present Constitution, "every three years." The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Veeder, and declared carried. county, would be more than one person possibly could perform. It may be found from time to time as the counties of this State increase, that the duties of the clerks of counties must necessarily be divided and another officer created to take part of those duties upon him. It may be that in the past, in the wisdom of the Legislature in certain counties of this State, that an apparent necessity of that kind existed; it may be true that that apparent necessity is a real necessity in the county of Kings; it may be also in the county of Westchester. Mr. CONGER-There is no doubt about it. Mr. ALVORD-It may be true in other counties of this State; but it seems to me, with the Mr. VEEDER-I move to amend the second line light of experience and knowledge we have on by inserting after the words "New York," the this subject, other than the assertion of individuwords "and the register of the county of Kings." als representing particular counties, we should As I understand it, at the time of the adoption of leave to the Legislature the exercise of the power the Constitution of 1846, the register of the city which they clearly have in making these new and county of New York was an established officers wherever the exigency shall arise, and the office, and the framers of the Constitution saw fit, retaining those which they have made by legisin order to avoid any question, to recognize that lative authority where they now are if that necesoffice, as did the Convention of 1821. Now we sity continues to exist. It is impressed upon us have in the county of Kings an independent office beyond any doubt that so far as it regards the known as register of the county of Kings. That city and county of New York, there is an is an office recognized by law and in existence. absolute necessity that is so plain and apparent If there is no provision in the Constitution recog-to the comprehension of every member nizing that office, there may be some question of this Convention that we do not hesitate to about it being a county office. I therefore re-retain it in the Constitution; but before we shall spectfully ask that the amendment be made. Mr. TAPPEN-There are other registers of counties besides those of Kings and New York. The office of register of Westchester county was created by act of Legislature in 1858. I think clerks and registers of counties would be the proper amendment, if it will be acceptable to the gentleman. Mr. VEEDER-I accept the amendment. Mr. HUTCHINS-I hope that amendment will not be adopted, for it may be proper hereafter to put the business back in the hands of the county clerk in some of these counties. Mr. VEEDER-If there is any such objection, then I prefer my first amendment. The office is a very important one in the county of Kings, and the business transacted in it is very extensive. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Veeder, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 50 to 23. Mr. ALVORD-There is no quorum voting. Mr. TAPPEN-Does the motion include the amendment I offered ? The PRESIDENT-The Chair understood the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Veeder] to accept the have had other light and other experience in regard to that which the Legislature has seen fit to do in the arrangement in reference to the counties of Kings and Westchester, and possibly some other counties in the State, we had better leave it where it has been left in the past, to the Legislature, to determine the question whether that necessity shall continue to exist; and as long as it shall so continue to exist, they will continue to keep that office in existence. Now, sir, I do not, as the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Veeder] has undertaken to remark, believe that by refusing to impress upon this Constitution this officer in the city and county of New York, and leaving the matter in regard to the other counties in abeyance so far as the Constitution is concerned, that we constitutionally legislate the register of the county of Kings or Westchester out of office. We leave them where the law leaves them; we leave them where they shall be amenable to legislative action, and we can safely do so, because we have not had from the county of Kings, except through its representative here, springing up at this time to speak upon this floor, nor from any other portion of the State, any idea of the necessity of placing in the Constitution, as a constitutional officer, any such man as a register. I hope, therefore, under the circumstances, that the Constitution of 1846, so far as this matter is concerned, will be left, and, New York, although I shall be very willing to that the question of registers and their continu- have that in the city of New York stricken out ance in office in these other places in the State as a constitutional office. will be in the power of the Legislature. Mr. VEEDER-Mr. President Mr. BERGEN-I hope the office of register will be continued in the county of Kings the same as it is in the county of New York. I can recollect when New York county had a population of The PRESIDENT-The gentleman from Kings [Mr. Veeder] has already spoken once on this question, and cannot speak again unless by uani-only 96,000, Brooklyn 5,000, and Kings county a imous consent. Mr. FOLGER-I object. The PRESIDENT—The gentleman cannot proceed. Mr. SEAVER-I offer an amendment to the amendment. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment as follows: little over 10,000. New York county has now probably a million, Kings county 400,000-nearly half the population of New York. Individuals are now living, in my judgment, who, by reason of the Mr. BARNARD-Mr. President, when the city rapid increase of population, will see more popuand county of New York had a population of lation in Kings county than in the city of New 120,000 the Legislature created the office of reg-York. Take the ratio of increase as a guideister of deeds separate from that of the county take the last ten or twenty years-and before clerk. In 1853, when the population of Kings twenty years expire probably the population of was 200,000, the business of the office of the Kings county will equal the population on Mancounty clerk had so increased that the Legislature hattan Island. Now, sir, if there is a necessity separated that office into two and created the for a constitutional recognition of the office of office of register of deeds. Now we have a pop-register in the county of New York, certainly it ulation of more than 400,000-more than three must be necessary in the county of Kings, taking times that of the county of New York when the into consideration the vast interest and amount of office of register of that county was established, and business transacted in that county. in 1846 the Constitutional Convention recognized the existence of that office in New York. Since 1846 the population of Kings county has so increased that the business could not have been done well by the clerk of the county of Kings. Strike out the words "register of the city and and hence the creation of the office of register. county of New York," in lines one and two, and I think the population of the county of Westches-insert in lieu thereof the words "register of deeds ter has increased to over 100,000, and they have in all counties where such registers are now or established the office of register there. Now, may hereafter be authorized by law." these offices being in existence, and elected at the same time and in the same manner as the oflice of county clerk, why not recognize them in the Constitution as well as the county clerks? It does not prevent the Legislature hereafter, in other counties, creating a separate office; but these offices are in existence, and we claim that they shall be treated as constitutional offices the same as that of clerk of the county. In fact, in both of these counties I think they are more important than the clerks of the counties; they have more to do; the emoluments of the office are greater and the responsibility is also greater than that of the office of clerk of the county. Mr. VEEDER-Now, sir, in regard to the recognition in the Constitution of the office of register in the county of Kings, I desire to say this. In 1821, when the Convention recognized in the Constitution the office of register in the city and county of New York, the population of the county of New York was less than 200,000; our population is put down by the census of 1865 at 310,000, while the fact is that our actual population is over 400,000. The office of register in the city and county of New York was created in 1812, when the population of New York was less than 150,000. The county of Kings does not mean simply the city of Brooklyn, but we have several Mr. VAN COTT-I unite in the universal ex- towns there in connection with it. Its population pression in supporting this amendment if you re-in 1855 was 216,000; in the ten years thereafter tain the provision in relation to the city of New it had increased over 100,000 in population accordYork. I do not myself see the necessity of making to the census. It must be evident to every ing the office of register a constitutional office, mind that our city is destined to be one of the but if you make it a constitutional office in New York you should in Brooklyn. Let me state as a fact, in addition to what has already been stated, that the volumes of conveyances in that office now exceed one thousand. It will give you some idea of the magnitude of the business of the office. Mr. VEEDER-Much more. largest cities in the United States. I submit, sir, that in order to avoid any possible error or confusion, in regard to this office in our county, the recognition of the office of register should be provided for in the Constitution. I cannot see any possible objection to it. No gentleman will suppose that the Legislature will ever endeavor to abolish the office of register in Kings county. Mr. VAN COTT—I speak now of conveyances, The remarks of the gentleman from Onondaga and in addition some seven hundred volumes of [Mr. Alvord], as to the necessity for an independ mortgages. The city of Brooklyn to-day is grow-ent office of register in the city and county of ing at a more rapid rate than the city of New New York, are equally applicable to the county York, because it has a larger area for growth. of Kings. It would be impossible for one officer Its population is also increasing in a very great to perform the duties of the office of clerk and ratio. I ask, therefore, with the members from that of register in the county of Kings. We Kings, that you include the office of register in have an independent office now, by an act Brooklyn, if you include that office in the city of of the Legislature of 1852, the duties of which take the whole time of the officer filling it. Therefore, to avoid all possible confusion, I hope the amendment offered by myself will prevail. have them; but it is only in exceptional cases that it is claimed by the gentleman that a register is needed. The exceptional case of the county of Mr. CONGER-The argument of the gentleman New York, the exceptional case of the county from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], on this question, of Kings, the exceptional case of the county of seemed to be based on this assumption, that Westchester, those three exceptional cases are things in the State of New York can go back-named, and those only; but no county can bo cre ward, that though population may increase and ated which does not need a county clerk and property be developed from year to year, and the sheriff. necessities of registry increase in consequence of the distribution of property, still a time may come when the tide must sweep backward, and the Legislature be obliged, after having first estab-" lished a registry as a separate office in a county, to revoke its action and declare that office null and void. Now, in regard to the county of Westchester, this, sir, is simply impossible, because there is no county in the State besides the counties of New York, Kings and Erie, that is developing as rapidly as that county; and the title to property in that county to-day, by subdivision, passes almost as frequently, and the necessity for a register as great as it is in the county of New York. I hope, therefore, there will be no difficulty in passing the proposition, and making the amendment "clerks and registers of counties." Mr. LARREMORE-I hope the last amendment offered will not prevail, inasmuch as it proposes to strike out from the report the words register of the city and county of New York.' This office now is a constitutional office, known and recognized as such, and its liabilities are well defined. The office of register of Kings county. and of Westchester county, have been established by special statutes, and the liabilities of these offi ces are there provided for, there is no such special statute in regard to the register of the city and county of New York, and it will perhaps lead to endless litigation if that office is omitted from the proposed Constitution, inasmuch as it has been recognized as a constitutional office for the last twenty years. I hope the section may remain as reported by the committee. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Seaver and was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 48 to 32. A DELEGATE-There was no quorum vo ting. Mr. HUTCHINS I move a reconsideration of the vote just taken. The PRESIDENT-Is there objection to its be- The PRESIDENT-The motion will lie upon the table. Mr. HUTCHINS-I withdraw my motion to reconsider. The PRESIDENT-It is too late. It will lie upon the table. Mr. FOLGER-The three gentlemen from Kings who have spoken to this question do not seem to claim that to preserve this office it is necessary that it should be a constitutional office, but they put the ground of its necessity upon the actual increase of the population and the probable future increase of population and wealth and property there, and they give us figures to show what willing be the future population at the present ratio of increase in the county of Kings. Now, suppose it should occur by and by that it be found convenient and necessary to divide the county of Kings, to take the rural part and make one county, and retain for it the name of Kings, and make the city of Brooklyn a separate county by some other name. If the increase in population goes on in the way these gentlemen claim, that thing is not improbable. Then if your Constitution has fixed the office of register for Kings county, it is an office, outside of Brooklyn, for a rural county which will not need it, and no such office is pro-ment, as follows: vided for the city and county of Brooklyn, where it is needed. That is my objection to putting this office by name in the Constitution. Once there, it is fixed and cannot be changed; and it will be placed upon a municipality, which does not need it. Not there, it is left to the vicissitudes and changes of affairs among men, and the necessities of change which may arise at any time. And except the city and county of New York, which by its territorial for mation and other circumstances is sui generis, so in regard to every county of the State. It may be, by and by, that the county of Westchester may be divided, but yet whatever part of it is called Westchester must retain the office of register if it is named in the Constitution, although the necessity might not exist when the division takes place. Mr. VEEDER-Would not this apply just the same to sheriffs and county clerks? Mr. FOLGER-No; because sheriffs and county clerks are for all counties, and all counties must Mr. HUTCHINS-I merely wish to say that there is no such office in the State as register of deeds. Mr. GOULD-I move to amend the section. Strike out the words "district attorneys" in line two, and insert the following at the end of the section: "There shall be appointed in each county by the judges of the courts of general sessions of the peace, a district attorney, who shall hold his office during the pleasure of such court." Mr. GOULD-I hope this amendment will commend itself to the favor of the Convention. It will be recollected that by the Constitution of 1821 the district attorneys for counties were thus appointed. It was found to work well in practice, and there was very little complaint so far as I know throughout the whole State, of the action of district attorneys; there has certainly been a great deal of complaint in regard to their conduct and action since the Constitution of 1846 was adopted. It is very evident that no persons can be better acquainted with what is required of a district attorney than the judges of the court in which he is accustomed to practice; they know his ability, and they know perfectly well whether he discharges lis duty faithfully aud conscien- from Columbia [Mr. Gould]. It is suggested tiously. I think it must be evident to the mem- by my friend here, that the two justices bers of the Convention that it is exceedingly un- of the sessions are of different politics, and that desirable to make this officer, who is intended for perhaps the county judge would give a casting the protection of society and punishment of crime, vote. But, sir, I ask the gentleman [Mr. Gould] to be nominated by a political convention. Every if he insists that all the voters of any one county one knows that the thieves and those who are the in this State are not as competent to designate a subjects of the jurisdiction of the district person for district attorney as the two justices of attorney act with a great deal of energy and the peace that may happen for the time being to zeal, and with a very perfect combination of occupy a seat on the bench of the court of seseffort in all matters connected with their profes- sions? I do not know how true it is, as claimed sion; and it is obviously their interest to have a by the gentleman, that district attorneys performman in the office of district attorney who shall be ed their duties better prior to 1846 than they have easy with them, and all experience shows that since that time. I remember something before they are exceedingly active in influencing such that time and considerable since, and if we have nominations. Now, gentlemen must be aware heard complaints with regard to district attorneys that there are, in many of the counties, organized since 1846 I have not heard any more pointed, bands of thieves, who extend their ramifications any more specific, nor any more damaging cominto a number of counties; tako for instance the plaints than I heard before that time in regard to well known gang known as the Loomis gang, the conduct of district attorneys and the manner having their center of operations in the county in which they discharged their duties. But, sir, of Oneida; they are known to be energetic complaints are universal, if a man does his duty politicians; their ramifications are known to as district attorney; and if he fails to do his extend into Madison, and as far south as the duty, he is also complained of; and I believe county of Sullivan, and they are exceedingly the people, at least, understand that a pub active in those counties when the subject of district attorney is brought up for discussion. I hope the Convention will consider this matter favorably, for I believe it will be a blessing to the people of the State. I would like to amend the amendment if there is no objection. It reads 'general sessions." I move to strike out the word "general." The PRESIDENT-The amendment will be made, as no action has been taken on it. Mr. FULLERTON-I would call the attention of the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould], to the fact the words "general sessions" are used. The court of general sessions only exists in the city of New York. Mr. GOULD-The amendment has been made. Mr. FULLERTON-Then the words "of the peace", should be stricken out. There is no such court as a "court of sessions of the peace," nor is there any such court as "general sessions of the peace." Mr. GOULD-I move to strike that out also. The PRESIDENT-This will also be stricken out. lic officer who is obliged to show himself in the courts as the district attorney is, who is obliged to appear before the grand jury, and the public generally, is held to as much responsibility as any officer, and that the people are as likely to know who is competent and who is likely to perform his duties well, as the two justices and the county judge are. Sir, I would rather trust the people of the county than any county judge or any justice of sessions. It does not require a great deal of argument to satisfy the gentlemen of this Convention that the occupants of the bench are merely human beings, and if anybody is liable to bias and influence for personal or political objects, it is this appointing power consisting of three persons. I am entirely opposed to it, sir. I believe the deposit of this power of selecting district attorneys is better in the hands of the people than in that of any three persons Here the gavel fell, the gentleman's time having expired. Mr. HAND-I offer the following amendment to the amendment: Strike out the words "district attorneys" in Mr. FULLERTON-Now the difficulty is, in this amendment, with reference to the appoint-line two, and insert at the end of the section the ment of district attorney, in the city and county of New York. A DELEGATE-We are satisfied to leave that to the electors. [Laughter.] Mr. GOULD-Then I will further amend, if permitted to do so, by adding, after the word "sessions," the words, "and in the city and county of New York by the judge of the court of general sessions of the peace." The PRESIDENT─That amendment will be made. Mr. E. A. BROWN-The court of sessions is composed of the county judge and two justices of the peace. Of course the two justices of the peace, who are not generally any better qualified than the great mass of the voters in the county, have the entire power to appoint district attoreys under the amendment of the gentleman words "there shall be appointed for each county by the judges of the supreme court, assembled in general term, of the district in which such county is situated, a district attorney, who shall hold his office during the pleasure of the court which appoints him." Mr. ALVORD-I am decidedly opposed to the amendment offered by the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand], as well as to the amendment of the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould]. As we have constituted, the judicial districts of this State, at this time, outside of the city and county of New York, there is hardly a judicial district but what contains more counties than the number of supreme court judges who are elected within the district. In my district, for instance, we have six counties and fout judges. It is true that the county which, in part, I represent here, has one of the judges in that district. But it may hap-a candidate. There is a great deal of wirepen, sir, in the course of time that my county pulling in these matters. Those who are very may not have a judge; and it may happen at deeply interested in the promotion of a particular some time when that county has not a judge that scheme, acting intelligently and in concert, are the district attorney is to be appointed. Sir, I altogether more than a match for those who have more confidence in the discretion and wis- merely desire to have a good officer selected. We dom of the people within the limits of my county all of us know from experience how these conto judge correctly in regard to the selection of ventions have been managed in times past, and we district attorney for our people, than I have have no sort of reason to suppose they will be in judges living outside of my county. managed any better in the future. In reply to So far as regards the experience of the county of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], I Onondaga, notwithstanding the fact that, previous will say that I am not particular which of these to the Convention of 1846 and the Constitution amendments shall be adopted; but it is a strange proceeding therefrom, there had been appointed argument to hear that the supreme court of a by a tribunal, which was entitled to consideration given district is incompetent to select a district and respect, our district attorneys, yet still the attorney of a given county, because none of the district attorneys that have been elected by the judges may happen to live in the county. The people in that county, under the present Constitu- judges are perfectly familiar with the bar of every tion, have been, to say the least, equal to the dis- county in their district, and they know the qualitrict attorneys who were appointed by the local fications of the candidates quite as well as the court previous to that time. Previous to 1846, in residents of the county. It seems to me, therethis State, there were courts of common pleas, fore, there is nothing whatever in this argument. having original jurisdiction, with a presiding judge Gentlemen who occupy positions of judges of the who was an eminently qualified lawyer ordinarily, supreme court are all of them gentlemen of perand with four gentlemen scattered over the coun-sonal integrity and private worth, who may be ty, of ability, integrity and uprightness of char- very properly relied upon to select district attoracter, associated with him, and they, expressing neys acceptable to the people, and who would disthe sentiments and views of the entire county, got charge their duties in the best manner possible. together, and through the power which was vested I hope, therefore, one of the amendments may be in them, appointed a district attorney. When the adopted. Constitution of 1846 abolished the original Mr. GERRY-Before there shall be any alterjurisdiction of that court and reduced ation of the present system, as claimed by the its members to one. So far as it gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould], I submit regards civil jurisdiction, and for the that there ought to be a cause for the alteration purposes of criminal jurisdiction, associated with shown by some definite facts. The idea that the him two justices of the peace elected by the peo- people are to be deprived of a privilege which ple, in my humble opinion, they lowered the dig- they have exercised for a long period of years nity and position of that court so much that it without any grave or great abuse produced therecould not, by any possibility, be expected on the by, is a very novel one; and without attempting part of that Convention, that they would delegate to argue the matter, I desire to call attention to to any such court the power of appointing dis-one fact in connection with the election of district trict attorneys. And in view of the fact that there attorneys. If, as the gentleman says, it results is hardly one of the judicial districts of the State in the choice by the people of one of two candibut what contains more counties than there are judicial officers of the supreme court or judges of the supreme court within their limits, I trust the Convention will not impose. upon that court this power, to the exclusion of the people of the county. Here the gavel fell, the gentleman's time having expired. dates, nominated by political parties, is it not an absurdity to suppose that either party would place a man notoriously incompetent or corrupt at the head of its ticket? Mr. FOLGER-I move the previous question. The question was put on the motion to order the previous question, and it was declared carried. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Hand, and it was declared lost. The question then recurred and was put on the amendment offered by Mr. Gould. Mr. GOULD-I call for the ayes and noes. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. The SECRETARY proceeded to call the roll on the amendment of Mr. Gould, and it was declared lost by the following vote: Mr. GOULD-I wish to remark, in reply to what the gentleman from Lewis [Mr. E. A. Brown] has said that I do not yield at all to him in respect for the people of the State of New York, or of the people of the counties composing it; but everybody knows that the idea of the people making the selection is a mere nominal one, that the people of the county have very little to do in that selection. The fact is, conventions of each political party get together, and each nominates a candidate, and the choice of the people is practically confined to one or other of Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, the candidates thus nominated. Now, it is en- Archer, Baker, Ballard, Barker, Barnard, Barto, tirely useless for me, in an assembly composed of Beadle, Beckwith, Bell, Bergen, Bickford, E. politicians, and who know perfectly well from Brooks, E. P. Brooks, J. Brooks, E. A. Brown, long experience how these conventions are man- Burrill, Carpenter, Champlain, Chesebro, Cooke, aged, to show that, that the people do not Corning, Curtis, Daly, Duganne, C. C. Dwight, have any weight in the matter of selecting T. W. Dwight, Ely, Evarts, Field, Folger Fowler, Ayes-Messrs. Comstock, Conger, Gould, Greeley, Hale, Hand, Houston, Hutchins, A. D. Russell-9. |