horse power and have grown up to many times their starting load. Under these conditions the interest charges on the original investment of a water-power plant must be earned by a light load, only a small fraction of the plant capacity-and the water-power plant would therefore be a very expensive investment unless the investment were light or there were business from the first to use the full capacity of the plant.

MR. WALBANK: Had the water plant you refer to any rack in front of it? How did the eels get in? MR. MATLACK: They went through the rack; they took out ten bushels of them.

MR. DAVIS: Does Mr. Walbank expect to do much business in the case of small customers on $35 per year per horse power and four cents kilowatt-hour, which means for small consumers about $120 a year plus the basic rate? It is the experience of the majority of central stations that, taking everything into consideration, we should be only too glad to do a power business on that basis independently of the basic rate. In other words, our experience in our town has been that, with the competition of isolated plants, we have to sell current at three and one-half cents per kilowatt, net.

MR. WALBANK: In reply to the question as to the cost of a single horse power; if the customer is going to use it ten hours a day, he is not going to pay meter rate, he will take it on flat rate. On the other hand, if we supplied him on the meter rate without a standing-by charge, he might use it only an hour and we should get practically nothing at all from him, notwithstanding the fact that we should have to stand ready to give him the full quantity of power he needed at any moment. For this reason we make a standing-by charge for small units of $35 per horse

power, and charge him so much per horse-power hour for the amount consumed as shown by the meter. This standing-by charge decreases as the unit

increases.

MR. WAGNER: I think we all appreciate that within the next few years water-power stations will be developed over the country to a very great extent, and we are all very much interested in the engineering details that have been so neatly worked out by Mr. Walbank in Montreal. This undoubtedly stands as one of the foremost electric water-power installations thus far produced; but when it comes to the cost of operation and distribution, and of the total cost per unit of power furnished from such installations, we should like very much to see them based on lines somewhat similar to those upon which we are accustomed to have the records of steam-power plants. We have a more or less uniform system among our central stations for showing the cost of production per kilowatt-hour delivered from the station, and if the water-power plants could use the same general forms to show their total costs, the comparison would be more instructive.

MR. DAVIS: What would be your price to a customer that would guarantee to use 100 horse power for ten hours a day per working year; what would the rate per horse power be?

MR. WALBANK: Anywhere from $32 to $36.

MR. RICE: I was sorry to be called out of the room at the time the paper was read. I should like to ask what the regulation is in the station that is comparable to the charts given yesterday by Mr. Ferguson.

MR. WALBANK: You mean electrical regulation of water wheels?

MR. RICE: I should like information respecting the regulation of the the water wheels and also the regulation in the lighting system.

MR. WALBANK: So far as the electrical regulation is concerned we have none, because we only opened last December and the special station switchboard is not up yet. What our ultimate regulation will be is pretty hard to say. I wish to correct a remark made by Mr. Wagner yesterday when he said that we operated principally for the supplying of power. We are operating about 30,000 incandescent lights now, with very little power. We have 300 series arc lamps, seventy-five to 100 alternating arc lamps, with one or two of the inclosed type. We were originally operating a single-phase plant from steam, and we found then what our coal costs us. We shut down the steam plant and started up the three-phase plant from the Rapids, and used the same switchboard that we were operating the steam plant with, and converted our power down to the two-phase and connected on that switchboard and brought out one leg in one direction and the other leg in the other direction. We are now operating with the same generator another plant at the northeast end of the city and through the suburbs of Montreal, and I do not think we have any complaint of the regulation; and the three-phase is as good as single-phase for every purpose.

MR. ANDERSON: I represent a company located at Springfield, Massachusetts. One year ago we completed a water-power installation of a capacity equal to that of the steam station that we ran before. I found that with a maximum capacity of water wheels of 2,800 horse power we were able to deliver 1,000 electrical horse power six miles from the water-power

station. I also found that it cost $6,000 to operate that station. According to my calculation, that is about $8 per kilowatt, delivered, for operating expenses. These operating expenses do not include any cost of repairs, which have not yet been necessary. My company pays the company owning the waterpower privileges $9.23 a mechanical mechanical horse power

delivered to its shaft. To deliver an electrical horse power at the end of the line, deducting for losses, costs us about $12. That makes it $21.23 for an electrical horse power delivered, with no allowance made for depreciation or the cost of of repairs or interest. The company built a power station costing approximately $150,000, with a capacity of 2,800 horse power. The electric-light company pays to the corporation owning the water-power privilege an amount of money representing an investment of about $200,000. The depreciation factor we can only guess at, but we allow for depreciation a sum of sum of money, the interest on which amounts to about $5 per electrical horse power delivered. I may say here that the load on

that station consists of some seven hundred 1,200candle-power street lamps, which burn 4,000 hours a year, all night; a maximum incandescent load of 600 amperes or 720 kilowatts, and a motor load, which is on from seven o'clock in the morning until six at night, of about two hundred horse power, besides a load of 200 horse power of commercial arc lighting; so that we take in all classes of work. We find that with our maximum of 2,800 horse power, which represents. the maximum load at the water-power station, we can deliver twenty-four hours a day an average of 1,000 horse power.

MR. DAVIS: I ask the last speaker if he is willing to state the difference in the net result to him before

and after installing and operating the water-power plant.

MR. ANDERSON: We have found that the change from the steam plant to the water-power plant has resulted in a very considerable saving, due to very favorable conditions; and we have also found that we are able to deliver nine-tenths, approximately, of our whole sold output from the water-power plant.

THE PRESIDENT: As there seems to be no further discussion of this subject, I take great pleasure in calling upon Professor Goldsborough to read his paper on transformer economy.