would emphasize that there are thousands and thousands of handicapped people.

Just three weeks ago in the chairman's district I rode the bus and saw an example of what my colleagues here were pointing out. There was a woman who was totally deaf on the bus, and by some mishap of life she didn't have any knowledge of lip reading, and I, of course, attempted to interview her and our driver, Bill Burroughs. Bill says to me, "She is sitting the second row back right next to the seat," Bill says to me, "Don't worry, Fred, we have got her covered, we know who she is. She gets off at Portland, and we have already called her contact to have her met. We take care of her on this trip about eight or 10 times a year.

So, see, people that aren't in the bus business don't understandpeople who are not in the bus business don't understand the extent to which we in the business; drivers, commissioned agents, people on driveways, the customers themselves, help one another. Because when you embark upon a bus trip, going from Knoxville to Nashville to Memphis to Texarkana, Arkansas; when you embark upon that bus trip, that is a journey, and you are joining with other people in the journey, and everybody helps one another on that journey, and the driver is sort of the captain of the ship, as it were, on that journey.

So we are out there doing all of that today, but it is important to recognize that people in the disabled community believe that we could service their needs giving them a greater sense of grace and dignity, and so we are going to work very hard to do that if you enable us to do it. If you put us out of business with this legislation, we will have to work on a different problem.

Mr. DUNCAN. Last week, Mr. Shuster, the Ranking Member of this subcommittee, quoted President Bush, I think, when he had lunch with our Ranking Member, Mr. Hammerschmidt. Apparently the President seemed to think that this legislation might not apply to the very small "Mom and Pop" bus operations. Is it your understanding that this legislation would apply to even the "Mom and Pop" operators, the very small private bus companies?

Mr. HENRY. That is my understanding. One thing, Mr. Duncan, I think we might add here; when you talk about large Greyhound and the small "Mom and Pops", many of us, and I am one of them, the small "Mom and Pops" feed into the large Greyhound corporation. If we didn't have that feed both ways from this large corporation, we would be in jeopardy for two reasons. We rely on them to help us and vice-versa, so we are a large part of that. We are a small company, but we rely on that big company, like Mother Nature, to take care of us.

Mr. DUNCAN. None of us want to appear unsympathetic to the disabled, and all of us want to be helpful to them as much as possible. I think that is one reason why this legislation passed the Senate by such a large-76-8, I believe-vote, but I have always found that the severely disabled are very sympathetic people themselves, probably because of what they have been through in life and very recently in their demands, for the most part.

And I am wondering, have your groups, the American Bus Association and the United Bus Owners of America and some of these other groups, have you met with-now, Mr. Currey testified that

Greyhound has met with some of the disabled groups. Have your groups met with the handicapped and some of the main disabled groups that are supporting this legislation, and have you tried to work some of these things out?

Mr. BUSSKOHL. I personally have not met with a specific group, but I have met with an individual in Sioux City. His name is Burt Welch, Jr. He is confined to a wheelchair. If this committee had not met on a Tuesday when he has to have a medical appointment, he would have been here and glad to testify and telling you how he believes that this legislation would impact him very negatively. Because being in the Frost Belt, even with this kind of accessibility, with the weather that he has got to contend with, he couldn't get to the bus anyhow.

So there are a lot of things that are not considered in this bill. A study needs to be done to address those sorts of things.

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes, Mr. Henry.

Mr. HENRY. I was just going to say, the American Bus Association, we have had a number of direct meetings, both at our call and their call. I might also add that our industry is a very small industry. For example, Mr. Currey is also Vice Chairman of the American Bus Association, so his input, as he picks up things, comes directly to the whole industry. We hear those things as his company hears them. So we're involved in two ways, as an association and through the individual members.

Mr. DUNCAN. Just one more question. Some of the legislation we pass here has an exclusion for small business, exclusions for businesses that employ less than 20 people or fewer than 50 people or exclusions like that. Do you gentlemen think that this legislation should include an exclusion for small business of some type; and if so, what? Or have you discussed that?

Mr. BUSSKOHL. Well, in my opinion, small business, large business is still using the same piece of equipment. So I don't know that in this industry whether excluding a small business would have the impact that it might in some other type of industry.

For example, small business would be purchasing a used coach from myself or from some other company, and it doesn't make any difference whether it came from a small company or a large company, they are still dealing with that same piece of basic equipment. So small business I don't believe would have that kind of—in this industry-wouldn't need that sort of an exclusion. I mean, if that is the only way to do it, I suppose so, but it would not have the same impact.

Mr. HENRY. I just have to back that up. The handicapped person, when he gets on a bus at point A, really doesn't care if it is a small business or a large business. If there is an exclusion, there is no bus for him, he doesn't have the wherewithal, so I think it has to be one or all.

Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much.

Mr. MINETA. Thank you, Mr. Duncan. I would like to call on our colleague, Mr. Skaggs, from Colorado. However, let me just at least recognize the presence of the Ranking Republican on the Full Committee on Public Works and Transportation, our very fine colleague from Arkansas, Mr. Hammerschmidt.

Mr. HAMMERSCHMIDT. Mr. Chairman, I have a statement for the record.

[The statement of Hon. John Paul Hammerschmidt follows:]

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN PAUL HAMMERSchmidt, a RepRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM ARKANSAS

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I would like to commend you, Mr. Chairman, and Congressman Shuster for scheduling these two days of hearings on the Americans With Disabilities Act.

This proposed legislation is designed to end discrimination against individuals with disabilities and to bring persons with disabilities into the economic and social mainstream of American life. These are certainly goals which I personally support. Throughout my career I have had the pleasure of working very closely with fine organizations such as the Paralyzed Veterans of America on many issues. My work with these groups has given me a first hand understanding and appreciation of the many barriers facing the disability community.

Nowhere are these goals more important than in transportation, for it is often the key which enables the disabled to become part of the mainstream and take advantage of education, employment and recreational activities. Mobility for the disabled American is our upmost consideration. Testimony from our broad collection of knowledgeable witnesses will help us to determine how best to achieve that mobili

ty.

The proposed legislation offers solutions to the transportation problems of the disabled which are complex and wide ranging in their potential impact. We must be sure that we understand exactly what the legislation would require of the transportation providers. We must understand the variety of ways in which our disabled friends are presently aided in the many communities across our Nation and what effect these requirements would have on current services. We must remember the needs of not only wheelchair bound individuals, but the mentally impaired, the growing population of elderly Americans, and others who benefit from special transportation services. Concerns have been raised as to whether or not the requirements of the proposed bill, as applied to all situations, will result in greater mobility. Until we know the facts, we cannot be assured that our common goal of improved service to the disabled will in fact be achieved.

I look forward to hearing from all our distinguished witnesses and working with the subcommittee on this important legislation.

Mr. HAMMERSCHMIDT. But may I ask unanimous consent to insert a very comprehensive letter from the operator of a small bus line in Arkansas. He makes his point very well, and I would like to make it part of the record.

Mr. MINETA. Without objection, so ordered.

[The letter referred to by Mr. Hammerschmidt follows:]

As President of Twin Lakes Bus Lines, Inc., I am writing to you with concerns about H.R.2273, the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). Both the Senate and House versions of the ADA appear to mandate wheelchair lift, multiple wheelchair tie-downs and fully accessible restrooms on all new intercity

buses.

As you know, my company provides rural bus service to the North Central Arkansas area between Mountain Home, Harrison and Little Rock. We also provide weekly service from Mountain Home to St. Louis and Chicago along with a bus charter and tour business. We started in the transportation business in 1983 with a dedication to provide rural bus service to our area where no bus service existed. We quickly discovered that daily rural bus service was an expensive service to provide and that it had to be subsidized from profits of our charter business. We have been successful in keeping our service going and plan on providing more needed transportation for our area as we are able.

I don't feel that ADA will have a direct impact on our service for the following reasons:

1.

2.

Rural regular route service will probably never support the burden of purchasing new buses and supplying insurance for them, therefor, we are resigned to buying used buses to keep the cost of the service as low as possible. Used buses with wheelchair lifts will not be available to us, the small independent companies for many years even if ADA is passed.

Most of our passengers are elderly because our area is a retirement community and yes some of them have handicaps and disabilities, some are even in wheelchairs, but we have delivered all of them to their destination with safety and dignity without wheelchair lifts.

I feel that the future of rural bus service is in the hands of us, the small independent regional bus lines, however, we have a great dependency on the larger bus lines such as Greyhound and this is why I am concerned.

My bus service is completely dependent upon passenger feed to and from the Greyhound Depot in Little Rock and hopefully other locations as we are able to add to our service. I think Greyhound realizes the importance of the small bus companies and have introduced a plan called "Rural Connection" to

2

help us integrate our service into their terminals, a plan beneficial to both.

My concern relates to the bills impact on Greyhound, which estimates a minimum cost of $40 million per year. If that tremendous burden forces a reduction in Greyhound services, it could have a devastating effect on my business and on other small bus lines attempting to restore rural bus service.

In closing, I would like to impress on you that I am not ignoring the plight of our disabled, I understand their problems, but I do think that before you mandate such drastic measures on an already fragile industry, that other less costly options should be more closely studied.

I appreciate your help in the past and with this issue. If you have any questions or if I can be of service in any way, please let me know.

Sincerely,

Robert L. Alexander
President

Twin Lakes Bus Lines, Inc.