Mr. FIESINGER. You say that you would tell them to go somewhere else. Do you ever find employment for them, or when people are thrown out of employment in a particular industry, or at a particular place, do you find employment for them?

Dr. LUBIN. We do in a sense. Our procedure is this: A girl comes to our Employment Service, and says that she is out of work. We inquire, "What have you been doing?" She replies, "I have been working in a rayon mill." Then, if our data show little chance of a growing demand for her services, we can say to her, "The chance of finding a job in a rayon mill is very slim, and there is no use waiting around for a job of that sort. The possibilities are very small." We may advise her to turn her attention to some other industry, and if there is employment available in the other industries, we would suggest that she take it, instead of waiting for an opening in the rayon industry. The United States Employment Service does not in any sense find a job for everybody who applies, but it is trying to make employment plans for the future, so that if it finds that jobs are available, it can tell unemployed people where they can expect to find employment. You have thousands of coal miners in Indiana and Illinois sitting around the mining villages in the hope that they may get jobs in some coal mines. Yet there is not one chance in a thousand of some of those mines opening up in that area.

Mr. FIESINGER. Workers in all industries are suffering everywhere because of unemployment, and it is a question of whether, by this survey, it will be possible to take people out of the areas or industries where the conditions are more aggravated, and placing them in industries or areas where the conditions are not so aggravated.

Dr. LUBIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. FIESINGER. Is it the idea of this survey to show that wages may be higher in one locality than in another locality?

Dr. LUBIN. As a matter of fact, we publish no wage rates at all. We publish aggregate pay rolls so that we may find out what is happening to the purchasing power of labor. Such surveys as we publish of actual wage rates are collected directly for the purpose of studying the wage rates in our monthly index. We deal with monthly pay rolls only, and are dealing with each industry as a whole.

Mr. KINZER. I would like to ask you a question with reference to this suggested amendment in line 7, section 1: Why do you think that is necessary? Do you have no confidence in the Director of the Census? Dr. LUBIN. We have complete confidence in him.

Mr. KINZER. Has any census been taken, or any 10-year census, that has not been satisfactory to the Department of Labor.

Dr. LUBIN. The only census of unemployment taken within this generation, was taken in 1930. The Department of Labor at that time had no information and no data on the subject of any impor

tance.

Mr. KINZER. Do not the other departments secure their statistical data from the Census Bureau?

Dr. LUBIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. KINZER. The question is whether there is any lack of confidence in the Bureau of the Census, and, if not, why do you want to control that Bureau?

Dr. LUBIN. We do not expect to control them. That is the reason we left out the word "control" or "direction." We do not think we

ought to direct it, but that it should be done in consultation with the Secretary of Labor.

Mr. KINZER. Do you think that is necessary, or that they are incapable of taking this census without your guidance?

Dr. LUBIN. No, sir; we do not feel that way, but we feel that we know something about taking a census of unemployment. We feel that here is a specific problem of unemployment, on which the Department of Labor has worked very hard. We have been doing tremendous amount of work on that problem.

Mr. KINZER. Would not that same reasoning apply to any other Federal Department?

Dr. LUBIN. No other Federal Department is working on the problem of unemployment as we are. This is to be a census of unemployment, employment, and occupations.

Mr. KINZER. It covers vital statistics.

Dr. LUBIN. It is a census of employment, unemployment, and occupations. Those are three things on which we have worked for

years.

Mr. KINZER. And you feel that they are not competent to do it without guidance.

Dr. LUBIN. No, sir; we do not feel that way at all, but we would like to be consulted on it. As a matter of fact, if the Director of the Census would rather that this amendment not be put in, we would be glad to have it taken out. We have consulted with them in our work in the past. The work in the three cities was done in coopera

tion with the Bureau of the Census.

Mr. KINZER. With reference to the last amendment, providing $25,000, do you not have funds for these purposes?

Dr. LUBIN. Not printing funds. We do not have $25,000 available for this purpose. Our Budget appropriation provides printing funds for the Department. In other words, the printing appropriation for the Department of Labor is allocated to the various Bureaus of that Department, and the allocation made to the Bureau of Labor Statistics does not provide a sufficient fund for this purpose.

Mr. KINZER. On this ratio of $25,000 needed for disseminating the information for those three small cities, what would be the total cost, or is that a criterion of what the cost of the dissemination of the information for all the rest of the country would be?

Dr. LUBIN. This is not all for the information with respect to the three cities. It includes the survey of employment pay rolls and the survey of retail prices.

Mr. KINZER. The amendment reads:

and make available to the Secretary of Labor not to exceed $25,000 for the printing of reports collected and now being compiled, on the prior census of unemployment at Bridgeport, Conn.; Lancaster, Pa., and Springfield, Ohio, the survey of employment pay rolls, and survey of retail prices.

Dr. LUBIN. There are three different surveys involved.

Mr. KINZER. That seems a large amount of money for those three little towns.

Dr. LUBIN. There are three different surveys the survey of the three cities, the survey of employment pay rolls, and the survey of retail prices.

Mr. KINZER. Those last surveys would be in addition to the census survey of the three cities, and they will be made for the entire country. Dr. LUBIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. FLETCHER. It would clarify the situation, if you would state how much of that amount refers to the survey of the three cities.

Dr. LUBIN. I would say, Congressman, in answer to your question, that the total cost for that will be less than $6,000. The balance of $19,000 would be applied to the other two surveys.

Mr. DUNN. I think the amendment reads, "Not to exceed $25,000."

Dr. LUBIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, the proposed census is advocated upon the theory that it will improve employment conditions. The great problem confronting the American people at the present time is one of employment, which, of course, involves the question of increasing the purchasing power of the people, without the restoration of which there can be no normal national life, and no prosperity enjoyed by any vocational group. Therefore, in the last analysis, unless this census will help solve the unemployment problem, seemingly there will not be much justification for the expenditure. It is my belief that this census will help solve that problem, but I am going to ask you again, In what way will the taking of this unemployment, employment, and vocational census, and this limited population census, contribute to the much desired end of increasing employment, augmenting the purchasing power of the American people, and restoring normal national life?

Dr. LUBIN. In the first place, the information will make it possible for us to determine where expenditures should be made with funds appropriated for the public-works program. Now, I realize, that the largest part of that appropriation has already been allocated, but some moneys may come back. Other money may be appropriated for the public-works program under the supervision of the P.W.A., and some may be under the direction of the regular legislative branch. I believe that we should know where that money can be most effectively applied in bringing the greatest number of unemployed into employment. This census will tell us where the unemployment is, so that we will not have to spend money in places where there may a shortage of labor. Such a thing might happen. In other words, the money appropriated should be used in a way which will do the greatest amount of good in stimulating industrial activity and providing employment for those who most need it.

be

The second problem would be to determine from this information what industries have been most hard hit. If, from the inquiry, we find that certain types of the machine industries have been most hard hit, I think that should guide us in determining whether, or not, we should spend our money for dams, in connection with which you would have to spend money for generators, and other types of machinery. If we should find that the pipe industry has been the most hard hit, we would know whether we should spend the money this year on sewers rather than on buildings.

In the second place, we should plan so the United States Employment Service can shift workers in a way which will give the most good to the greatest number of people.

There is no need of training a lot of skilled workers in vocational guidance schools and otherwise, if there is nothing in industry to employ these people when they have learned their trade. A survey of occupations and unemployment will tell us where to bring pressure to cut down on certain types of training and to stimulate other types. The third problem, as it affects unemployment, is the problem of the youngster who has been out of work for 3 or 4 years. We do not know how many there are, we do not know what we ought to do with them, and we do not know what they are all fit for. We will find out. how many there are and who they are and what they are fit for.

The CHAIRMAN. Then, aside from the theoretical aspect of the case, you believe that the taking of this census would be productive of information which will reveal that data and will, as a practical proposition, aid in the solution of the unemployment problem.

Dr. LUBIN. Yes, sir; I do.

The CHAIRMAN. And you think there will be real, practical benefit accruing from it?

Dr. LUBIN. Yes, I do.

Mr. FLETCHER. In relation to your last statement in regard to the status of young folks, how will you get this information? It has been stated that there are many thousands of young people already on the road.

Dr. LUBIN. There are two facts there to be considered. In the first place, the number on the road has been cut down tremendously. The last report I have had from Mr. Hopkins' organization is that they have been reduced surprisingly in number.

The second fact is that although there may be hundreds of thousands on the road, you have in excess of a million or more who are at home, who never had a job, but who want to work. The question is, What are we going to do with those youngsters?

Mr. FLETCHER. And this census will give us that information?

Dr. LUBIN. Yes; because one of the questions which will probably be asked will be the age of these people, and whether they have ever had any work before.

Mr. DUNN. What will you do about the men and women of 40 or 45 years of age who are out of work and cannot get jobs?

In the hearings before the Committee on Labor several weeks ago many heads of industries appeared before us and each one of them stated that they had an age limit of 40 or 45 years, and they were opposed to the 5-day week and the 6-hour day.

What will you do with those people? They are mentally and physically sound.

Dr. LUBIN. There you have a very important problem about which we have heard a lot, but as yet nobody can tell how many there are of this group, and what industries they are fit to work in.

It may be that we will have to provide some way to retrain these people to enable them to take jobs where they can be employed, and such information will or can be made available through this census. On the basis of age distribution we will know from those figures how many of the unemployed are over 40 years of age and the industries in which they have worked. And so we will know whether there is any chance of reemploying them, or whether we will have to make some other provision for them.

Mr. DUNN. The statement has been made that it would take $20,000,000,000 to carry on this work. That seems to be a gigantic sum to some people, but to me it is infinitesimal when you consider what the proposition is. It is going to cost a tremendous sum of money for the Census Bureau and the Department of Labor to find jobs for the unemployed.

I want to ask you this question: Where are we going to get this money?

Doctor LUBIN. I am not an authority on finance, so I would hesitate to answer that question. Of course, 10 billion is relatively a small amount when you think of it in the terms of the income of the country in 1929.

The purpose of the administration is to stimulate industrial activity so that the income will be increased to a point where there will be sufficient surplus to make it possible to employ these people in other activities.

Mr. DUNN. Some other member of the committee made a statement about machinery coming into existence, and said that perhaps one machine will do the work that 100 men are doing now. about that situation?

What

Doctor LUBIN. That situation varies from industry to industry. You have many cases where the development of a new machine displaces a number of persons, but by cutting the cost of production it results in a situation where the industry employs more people than formerly.

Probably the best illustration of that is in the production of newspapers. It was impossible to sell newspapers when you had hand printing at anywhere near a price at which the people could buy. But when they developed various types of machinery they supplanted no printers. Later, however, they had many more people on the job than before they put the machinery in.

That is not a typical case, but those cases do prevail.

My own conception is that the Wagner-Lewis bill providing for unemployment insurance is essential to take care of that situation. Mr. DUNN. I am glad you said that.

The CHAIRMAN. As I view this situation, the world is passing through a period of transition as radical as the one that ushered in the industrial revolution 150 years ago, as the result of the invention of power or labor-saving machinery.

This transition, known as the "industrial revolution" completely changed the whole industrial system.

Are we not at this time passing through a similar change, which requires a readjustment of many things which heretofore have been considered inconsequential, and without some readjustment is it going to be possible to solve the unemployment problem, especially as we have reached the point of saturation in many industries; in agriculture and manufacturing we have reached the point where we are producing more commodities than can be consumed in our domestic market, or for which we can find a market abroad.

Will this measure tend to increase employment and to reduce to a minimum the evils incident to our present industrial system?

Dr. LUBIN. Mr. Congressman, I think the problem you have raised is really the essential problem facing civilization today, and the question is, How do you want that readjustment to take place? Do