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March and the low point in August and September. This year's peak did not come in March because the C.W.A. was still working. It came in April. - Mr. FIESINGER. You say you had more relief in April of this year tman in any other month in the history of the country? Mr. GILL. So it appeared at the beginning of April. Mr. ELLENBogEN. Is it not a fact that you have practically affected employment by making it so that they cannot get a Government-made job unless they are on relief? Is not that responsible for it? Are they not told, you cannot get a R.W.D. job unless you are on relief? I know that is true in my community. Every one who was in C.W.A. work and not on relief is now forced to ask to be put on relief, and that means a tremendous swelling of the relief rolls in my community. Mr. GILL. The work relief division takes all of its people from the relief rolls, but before they can become eligible, either for relief, and consequently for work, they must go through the stage of investigat10n. So I think it is perfectly safe to say that almost without exception everybody on the relief rolls is badly in need of relief. It may be, it is very conceivable, that there are still hundreds of thousands of people that, for one reason or another, will not apply for relief, will not go to the relief office, when they are desperately in need of it. We have instances of that sort almost every day. Mr. ELLENBogEN. What I have in mind is this. A year ago assurances were given to the people who wanted these Governmentmade jobs, and who would register in the State employment offices, that as soon as there was work they would be given work without being on relief. But now they have been told definitely they must be on relief before they can get work relief. That has unquestionably tremendously increased the relief rolls. Is not that correct? Mr. GILL. There is no evidence of it in many areas. It is probably true in particular cases, but it is pretty difficult to generalize. Mr. ELLENBoGEN. It is pretty general in Pittsburgh and in Alleghany County. Mr. GILL. I think you can find it in cities here and there. Of the first 2 million under C.W.A., to whom we gave employment, every one of them were from the relief rolls. Mr. ELLENBogEN. Or supposed to be. Mr. GILL. In the second 2 million they came through the national reemployment offices, many of whom were people on relief rolls. There is no way of making anything other than a fairly careful guess, if I may call it that, but I submit that 9 out of 10 people that were on C.W.A. work as relief people were eligible for relief. Mr. ELLENBogEN. They were eligible, but they were not willing to ask for it. Mr. GILL. That is right. Mr. DEAR. I want to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we get down to a consideration of the bill. Mr. DUNN. I have just been making some calculations. I think you said $120,000,000 a month is given out in the form of relief to 4% million families and to about 400,000 individuals, which makes approximately 17,000,000 people.

Is that form of relief given directly in the form of food orders, or do you give it to them in cash? Mr. GILL. It varies. As to those individuals who work, we try in every case to give it to them in cash. As to those who are on direct relief, or home relief, it varies from place to place, according to the local custom. It is given out in grocery orders in some places and in some other places in cash. We also give out surplus commodities, through the Surplus Relief Corporation. The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions? The hour has come when the committee will have to adjourn, because we are not permitted to sit during the sessions of the House. Mr. FIESINGER. I believe you said there were 4% million families and 380,000 individual cases? Mr. GILL. About 400,000 individual cases. Mr. FIESINGER. Those are single people? Mr. GILL. They are single people. The CHAIRMAN. Would it be agreeable for the committee to meet tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock? Is that agreeable to you, Mr. Kinzer? Mr. KINZER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Then if it is the will of the committee, we will adjourn until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. I hope we may be able to expeditiously complete these hearings; not that I have any desire to prevent full inquiry. We want every member of the committee to feel free and to be free to pursue this investigation as far as he thinks proper. I hope we will keep out as much extraneous matter as possible to the end that we may complete these hearings at an early date. And by way of explanation, the chairman will state that this committee has not been previously reconvened to consider this proposed legislation for the reason that the chairman was not informed as to what would be the policy of the Bureau of the Census, or the Department of Commerce, or the Director of the Budget, or the President with reference to legislation of this character. I thought it would be a useless expense and a waste of the time to hold hearings until we knew the attitude of the departments on whose judgment the committee and the Congress will probably rely and act. But now that a concrete proposition has come from the Department of Commerce which has the approval of the Director of the Budget, I am sure all members of the committee will cooperate, expeditiously conduct and conclude these hearings, and then take such action as the committee, in its judgment, thinks proper. Mr. FIESINGER. I saw a statement in the Washington Post yesterday morning to the effect that the administration was considering different propositions, one of which was not to spend so much money. I do not know what the exact nature of it was, but as I got it, they were going to taper off in their expenditure of funds. So I would like to ask this question when we assemble again, if i. is the policy, what effect will it have upon an activity of this In Ols Mr. KINZER. That is exactly the point I had in mind. Mr. FIESINGER. I thought that was a general question somebody ought to be able to answer, when it is proposed to spend over $7,000,000, if they are going to change their policy.

I want to find out what we are spending it for. The CHAIRMAN. The expenditure authorized by this bill has been approved by the Director of the Budget as not being inconsistent with the economy program, of the administration, which means that this measure has the President's approval, otherwise, I take it, the Director of the Budget would not have given it his approval. Mr. KINZER. Does he have a representative here? The CHAIRMAN. I have a letter from the Director, and a representative of the Bureau of the Budget will probably appear before the committee. Mr. ELLENBogEN. Since some of these gentlemen will be here tomorrow, I would like to get as much light as possible at that time on the type of questions that will be asked, because the value of this legislation will depend on the questions that will be asked. So I would like to get as much light on that tomorrow as possible, because I would not be in favor of the legislation unless the questions are such that they will be useful. The CHAIRMAN. I think that inquiry is apropos, and information you mention will be helpful. However, the chairman, expressing his individual opinion, does not think that the committee, with its limited information can formulate inquiries which the Census Bureau will use in these schedules. I am quite sure the Census Bureau, with its long experience, is better able to formulate those schedules than members of this committee.


Mr. ELIOT. Mr. Chairman, may those of us who cannot come tomori. morning be recorded as being present and as having endorsed the ill? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Will you give your name and state whom you represent? Mr. ELIOT. My name is Charles W. Eliot, 2d; I am executive officer of the National Planning Board of the Federal Emergency Administration of Public Works. The board, at its meeting in St. Louis on March 5, had before it Mr. Ellenbogen's second bill, and requested me to appear at any hearing which might be held on that or subsequent bills, and to record the board as being in favor of such legislation. Mr. DUNN. Have you any connection with the Federation of Labor? Mr. ELIOT. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. The time has come for our adjournment, and we will adjourn at this time and meet again at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. (Thereupon, the committee adjourned to meet tomorrow, Tuesday, May 1, 1934, at 10 a.m.)


TUESDAY, MAY 1, 1934

Washington, D.C.

The committee met at 10 a.m., Hon. Ralph F. Lozier (chairman) presiding.


The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Rice, you may make such statement with reference to the pending measures and the proposed census that you think proper.

Dr. RICE. Mr. Chairman, I think that in the testimony yesterday, especially in the statement which was read into the record by the Director, the interest of the various governmental agencies was pretty well supported. I thought it might be well for me this morning to indicate somewhat in general, but supported by specific illustrations, the widespread support of this proposal which has come to the Secretary of Commerce and the Director of the Census during more than a year past.

If the committee chooses, I think you might care to have in the record a list of 97 writers of letters in support of a population census, including occupations, unemployment, and various other things, according to the individual statements submitted, and which had reached the Secretary of Commerce or the Director of the Census prior to June 23, 1933. These include persons of acknowledged expertness in respect to population, public health, business planning, city plan; engineering, and many other related fields which use population


Would you care to receive this list in the record?

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, it will be received and printed in the record.

(There was no objection, and the list is as follows:)


LIST of 97 writeRs, As of JUNE 23, 1933

Hon. H. A. Wallace, Secretary of Agriculture. David C. Adie, commissioner New York Department of Social Welfare, 80 Centre Street, New York City. Nels Anderson, Columbia University, New York City. Io A.§erson, New York State College of Agriculture at Cornell University a Ca, N. Y.

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Ernest L. Anthony, Michigan State College, East Lansing, Mich. Hugh P. Baker, Massachusetts State College, Amherst, Mass. Louis Bloch, statistician, division of labor statistics and law enforcement, San Francisco, Calif. Herbert Blumer, secretary The American Sociological Society, University of Chicago, Chicago, Ill Isaiah Bowman, director American Geographical Society; permanent secretary, National Research Council, New York City. H. C. Brearley, The Clemson Agricultural College, Clemson College, S.C. Y o B. Burritt, Association for Improving the Condition of the Poor, New ork City. Robert E. Chaddock, Columbia University, New York City. F. Stuart Chapin, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minn. Chris L. Christensen, University of Wisconsin, Madison, Wis. Mo C. Coffey, University of Minnesota, department of agriculture, St. Paul, Inn. Morris A. Copeland, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Mich. John H. Cover, The University of Chicago, Chicago, Ill. Miles M. Dawson, consulting actuary, 1085 East Main Street, Columbus, Ohio. Joseph V. De Porte, New York State Department of Health, Albany, N.Y. Z. C. Dickinson, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Mich. Louis I. Dublin, vice president and statistician, Metropolitan Life Insurance Co., New York City. Edward Elliott, Purdue University, Lafayette, Ind. Haven Emerson, Columbia University, New York City. Earle Eubank, University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati, Ohio. Henry Pratt Fairchild, New York University, New York City. Roland P. Falkner, chief statistician, National Industrial Conference Board, Inc., New York City. Ernest M. Fisher, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Mich. Irving Fisher, 460 Prospect Street, New Haven, Conn. Emil Frankel, New Jersey Department Institutions and Agencies, Trenton,

Wilson Gee, the University of Virginia, University, Va. C. E. Gehlke, Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio. R. L. Gillett, and other members of the executive committee of the Albany District Organization of the American Statistical Association, Albany, N.Y. Martin G. Glaeser, the University of Wisconsin, Madison, Wis. Chester H. Gray, American Farm Bureau Federation, Washington, D.C. Howard W. Green, Cleveland Health Council, Cleveland, Ohio. Robert M. Haig, Čolumbia University, New York City. C. Horace Hamilton, North Carolina State College, Raleigh, N.C. F. H. Hankins, Smith College, Northampton, Mass. Alvin H. Hansen, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minn. b ote G. Hardy, statistician, Pennsylvania Department of Health, Harrisurg, Pa. Shelby M. Harrison, and other directors of research, Russell Sage Foundation, New York City. Hornell Hart, Bryn Mawr College, Bryn Mawr, Pa. William Hodson, The Welfare Council, New York City. E. O. Holland, The State College of Washington, Pullman, Wash. C. B. Hutchison, University of California, Berkeley, Calif. Charles S. Johnson, Fisk University, Nashville, Tenn. Emlyn Jones, M.D., Pennsylvania Department of Health, Harrisburg, Pa. Charles H. Judd, The University of Chicago, Chicago, Ill. Benjamin B. Kendrick, social science research council, Woman's College, University of North Carolina, Greensboro, N.C E. L. Kirkpatrick, The University of Wisconsin, Madison, Wis. C. E. Ladd, New York State Colleges of Agriculture and Home Economics, Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y. Jacob G. Lipman, director New Jersey Agricultural Experiment Station, New Brunswick, N.J. Alice F. Liveright, department of welfare, Harrisburg, Pa. George A. Lundberg, Columbia University, New York City. H. L. Lurie, Bureau of Jewish Social Research, New York City. Carl E. McCombs, Institute of Public Administration, New York City. R. D. McKenzie, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Mich.

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