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ency agencies in connection with the relief plan. I do not mean the final figures, but what you might call preliminary figures. Mr. AUSTIN. We propose to do that. We propose to make tabulations and to furnish those tabulations by areas to the emergency organizations before the first of next year. r. ELLENBoGEN. I think the committee should have some assurance as to that, or that it will be done. Mr. AUSTIN. There are certain detailed tabulations that will have to come later. The present bill confines the census to Continental United States, or the forty-eight States and the District of Columbia. Mr. DUNN. How much is it going to cost to take this census of Agriculture? Mr. AUSTIN. $4,120,000. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dunn, before you came in, the Director of the Census gave the approximate cost of the population, unemployment, employment, and occupations census, which in round numbers was, all told about $7,540,000. Mr. ELLENBoGEN. He said $7,540,000. Mr. FLETCHER. As I understand it, Congress is to be asked for an appropriation of $1,500,000,000 to take care of relief work. This morning's paper says that there are over 4,500,000 families, or a total of probably 19,000,000 people that will be eligible for relief, or needing relief, which is more than any previous estimate made in this emer; What authority do they have for making such a statement as that? Mr. AUSTIN. I have not seen the statement. Mr. FLETCHER. The statement made this morning is that they were taking care of more people now than ever before. You think that with these census reports, we will know more definitely about that condition? Mr. AUSTIN. Yes, sir. We should know more definitely the number of people unemployed, more of the facts concerning the geographical distribution of unemployment and certain facts about the family histories of those requiring relief. That is information which it is absolutely necessary for the emergency services to have in planning for relief. They should have a complete up-to-date tabulation that will enable them to plan their work. Mr. FLETCHER. In these estimates of the unemployed, there seems to be no statement or estimate regarding the number of unemployable people. There are always large numbers of people who are unemployed, regardless of the economic situation. Is there any approach to those facts contemplated by this survey? Mr. AUSTIN. These reports will give you the facts. Mr. FLETCHER. There are many people who because of physical condition, vocational reasons, and so forth, are unemployable. Mr. AUSTIN. Yes, sir. Mr. ELLENBoGEN. Is it a correct statement that at the present time no one knows the number of unemployed? Mr. AUSTIN. We do not. Mr. ELLENBoGEN. And we never did know. Mr. AUSTIN. There are no two statements that agree. Mr. ELLENBoGEN. We speak of the great number of unemployed people, and it is stated that the number is larger now than has been estimated heretofore. In your judgment, is that correct? * , Mr. AUSTIN. I would not want to answer that question. I would like to be excused, because my guess would not be any better than any other guess. Mr. ELLENBoGEN. We have some facts about that, do we not? We have the facts as to the number of people actually on the relief rolls, and that number is much larger than was estimated by Mr. Hopkins’ department when they started out. Is that correct? Mr. AUSTIN. Mr. Hopkins has a representative here, or he will be here pretty soon, and I would like him to answer that question. Mr. ELLENBogEN. I am not speaking, of course, for other people, but the purpose I had in mind when I introduced my bill was to supply data that we absolutely need. If we are to do any intelligent planning and legislating, or are to act intelligently in the care of the unemployed, we need a fairly accurate picture of this situation in the United States. That was one of my purposes. The other purpose was this: The Federal Emergency Relief Administration is using a large part of their money for relief work, and the taking of this census would afford a very useful form of work relief. It would provide a good work-relief project. Therefore, it would not take any money at all out of the Public Treasury that would not be taken otherwise, because the employment that it would give would be relief employment, as it were. Is that correct? Mr. AUSTIN. That is correct. Mr. RANKIN. Let me say right here, that I have been on this committee ever since I have been in Congress, and there is one Bureau that is supposed not to guess. That is the Bureau of the Census. If you are simply talking of a survey of industrial unemployment, that should be made by the Department of Labor. Now, you are not going to get anywhere with this matter if you do not go to the roots of the trouble. If you are going to try to do anything to relieve the economic condition in the United States, you will find the problem rooted in our agricultural condition. Therefore, you will not get anywhere by simply taking a census of the number of men who want jobs with daily or monthly pay, but you will have to go with this survey to the farms. You will have to find the deplorable conditions on the farms, or you must find whatever the conditions are, whether deplorable or not. I know that some of them are in a deplorable condition. You must find the condition that prevails on the farms, because you will not relieve the country of this depression until you put agriculture back on its feet. If this census is going to be taken at all, I would certainly like to see as a result of it a compilation of facts concerning the condition of agriculture. You should have any authority that is required to enable you to perform that work in the best possible way, because, unless some relief is brought to agriculture, or some substantial and permanent relief is brought to the farming people, you are not going to have any permanent economic relief in this country. Mr. ELLENBoGEN. As I understand it, this census will include, not only the industrial sections, but, also, the agricultural sections. Mr. RANKIN. You cannot take a useful agricultural census by simply going to a man and asking him if he is employed or unemployed. There are more elements that enter into the question than that of unemployment. It is not simply a question of whether or

not you are on some pay roll. The question would be whether the economic tendency would justify, or the economic conditions would justify, people in rural sections to be employed. Many of them are struggling along, trying to dig a living out of the ground, and they would not be classed as unemployed, but they are really worse off than they would be if they were classed as strictly unemployed, and were crying out to get on a pay roll. That is the reason I would want this inquiry to go as fully into that agricultural background as it is humanly possible to do it. You will simply be drilling a dry hole until you begin to relieve the condition of agriculture, because agriculture represents the grass roots of prosperity. The CHAIRMAN. As I understand it, this bill would not limit or circumscribe the agricultural census. It would not be any less comprehensive than if taken in January under existing law. Mr. AUSTIN. No, sir; not a bit, because the appropriation has already been made by Congress for the agricultural census. The law provides that the schedules of inquiries shall be prepared by the Director of the Census. I think that really what Mr. Ellenbogen has had in mind was the employment of the field force by the Bureau of the Census for the collection of the statistics, beginning on November 12. I think it was his idea that that would be an aid in giving people employment, and in that way would help the relief program. Mr. ELLENBogEN. That is right. Mr. AUSTIN. It would mean employment for 100,000 people distributed in every minor civil division of the United States. Of course, some of them would work for only a short time, but it will distribute public funds through every minor civil division in the United States. I think that is the point Mr. Ellenbogen had in mind, because there will be 100,000 enumerators, besides the supervisors and necessary office field force. The force will not be as large as that used in taking the 1930 census, because this will not be as comprehensive a census; but, as I say, it means a distribution of the amount we are asking for field work, approximately, $6,700,000 throughout the United States. The bill provides that the census of agriculture shall be taken at the same time as the census of unemployment, etc., and a limited census of population. That means that the work would be done more efficiently and more economically with the same enumerators. As we have always done in the work of the census, the enumerator that goes into a rural district to secure the information with reference to the farms, will at the same time secure the information as to population. Mr. RANKIN. Do you not think that this survey of employment ought to be made by the Department of Labor? Do you not think that should be separated from this other census work? Mr. AUSTIN. No, sir; I do not think so. I think that the collection of statistics should be centered in the Bureau of the Census. Now that we are going to take the census of agriculture, which the law has already provided for, and for which appropriation has already been made, and since we are to take a census of unemployment, employment, and occupations and a limited census of population, there is no valid reason why the work on unemployment should be turned over to some other Bureau, which would mean the setting up in that Bureau of an additional organization to collect those statistics. Mr. RANKIN. What I want to bring out is this: If you are going to take this census of unemployment, we want you to give another picture. We would like for you to show, not simply the earnings of individuals, because we are jacking up industrial wages altogether out of line with agricultural earnings, but we want you to go further than that. For instance, we will say that all of the people in Jasper County, Mo., if there is such a county, are employed, while over here in Knowles County, if there is such a county, there are 25,000 people unemployed; yet the number of people at work in Knowles County probably are making three or four times as much money and are getting three or four times as much work, as all the people who are employed in the other county, because those people are struggling along in agricultural districts, trying to wring a living from the ground. In addition to that, the people in the agricultural districts are burdened with an enormous load of ad valorem taxes. Therefore, if we are going into the question of employment and unemployment, we certainly want to go into the question of what those people who are supposed to be employed are earning. That is true, because if we are going at this thing for the purpose of working out a program for relief, we must begin with the agricultural element, which, as I have said, represents the grass roots of our national existence. We want to go into that question, and not merely ask if this person or that person is employed or unemployed. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kinzer, I believe you asked for recognition to ask a question. Mr. KINZER. Mr. Director, I understood you to say that the decennial census of 1930 took about 3 years and 6 months to complete. Mr. AUSTIN. Yes, sir; 3 years and 6 months. Mr. KINZER. And I understood you to say that this proposed census here, which is a very limited census, will take, in your judgment, something in excess of 2 years to complete. Mr. AUSTIN. I said 2 years. Mr. KINZER. Having in mind that this census will cover a period of 2 years, is it not a fact that this industrial depression from which we are now suffering may be at an end, and that these figures will be of no benefit to the relief agencies between now and then? Mr. AUSTIN. No, sir; we have nothing like that in mind, of course, because—— Mr. KINZER (interposing). The reason I asked that question was that it took 3 years to complete the decennial census, and we have only had that completed within the last year. Mr. AUSTIN. That would have been all right in normal times. There would have been no question about the census of 1930 if the conditions had been normal, but the conditions were not normal. The conditions have not been normal, and there have been great shifts in population. Mr. Kinzer. Will those shifts continue, in your judgment, for the next 2 years? Mr. AUSTIN. Not to as great an extent as in the past. The shifts have been going on for the last 2 years. Mr. KINZER. What is the tendency now? Mr. AUSTIN. The tendency now is to settle down.

Mr. KINZER. How would that census, with the data available, result in the restoration of people to employment? How will it result in employment other than to those who are directly employed in securing and computing the statistics? Mr. AUSTIN. It will give the Federal Government here in Washington, or the emergency relief organizations, as well as Congress, some definite, accurate, and up-to-date information to go on. That is something you do not have now. Mr. KINzER. But they will not get that until 2 years from now. Mr. AUSTIN. No, sir; you do not get it until 2 years from now. Mr. ELLENBogEN. It would be worthless then. * KINZER. I thought you said it would require 2 years to comete it. p Mr. AUSTIN. No, sir. The tabulation of the totals that are necessary will be made immediately following the receipts of the reports at the Washington office. There will be a number of preliminary reports given out, because it is necessary for the emergency relief organizations to have this information as quickly as they can get it. Congress should have the same information as promptly as possible. . Now, there are certain refinements in the tabulations that will require long time planning. There is, of course, the question of publication, proof-reading, and so forth, which will take a long time, of course. Now, we have long since left the old method of taking a paper tablet and lead pencil to count up anything. We use the most modern equipment for this work. A good deal of this equipment is owned by the Census Bureau, because the Bureau has been developing its own mechanical equipment. We will supply the information just as quickly as it can be done. Mr. KINZER. This information is primarily for the use of the Federal relief agencies. Mr. AUSTIN. Yes, sir. Mr. KINZER. And it will be practically of no use to industry generally throughout the United States. Mr. AUSTIN. So far as industry is concerned, we are just closing up now a census of American business and a census of manufactures. Congress provides for a biennial census of manufactures, and we have been taking that for a number of years. We are just now finishing the canvass in the field, covering the calendar year 1933. We have, through an allotment from Mr. Hopkins, taken a complete census of American business, covering wholesale and retail establishments, service organizations, and so forth, and we are now tabulating that material. That census covers the calendar year 1933. When we get those two censuses together, we will have covered the industries and business of the United States, and you will have a complete picture of all business in the United States for the calendar year 1933. That was a depression year, and against that you have the same complete picture for the calendar year 1929, which we covered in the 1930 census and which was not a depression year. Now, from those reports, we should be able to tell about business conditions, and what has happened to business in the United States between 1929 and 1933. Mr. FLETCHER. How long did it take to complete that census? Mr. AUSTIN. We started with the manufactures inquiry immediately after January 1 of this year. I want to tell you something about that: Years ago Congress gave us money enough to make a

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