In 1915 the tolls amounted to $6,000 or $7,000 or $10,000. Senator MCKELLAR. Now they amount to how much? Senator ASHURST.. At the present time, to about $7,000 or $8,000. Now we come to deal with the question of policy. When I introduced the Grand Canyon Park bill I used appropriate language to see that the toll road still remained in Coconino County. That passed the Senate. I had, I think, a suggestion from Senator Smoot that the county should negotiate with the Government for the purchase of that trail. That met with my approval. I think the Government ought to own the trail.

Senator McKINLEY. What is the distance?

Senator ASHURST. About 4 or 5 miles. The trail wanders down the side of the canyon. It is about a mile straight down.

We had to convert a great many people in Coconino County before we could get their consent to that, but we considered that it was for the national good. I do not believe that private persons or municipal corporations or counties or States should own the passage of ingress or egress to a great national park like the Grand Canyon. I had first to convert myself. I am of the opinion now that the Government should own this passage of ingress and egress to the Grand Canyon.

Last spring some Members of the House of Representatives went to the Grand Canyon, and they held a joint meeting with the mayor of Flagstaff and the mayor of Williams, which are in the two counties in which this is located. The board of supervisors were there present, and they all reached an agreement that the trail should be sold to the Government of the United States and that the money should be used by the Government and expended under the direction of the National Park Service in building a road from the old Santa Fe trail to the Grand Canyon.

The two towns were unable to agree as to whether the road should go to Flagstaff or Williams, 35 miles away, and they agreed to build a road from a point equidistant from these two towns, 16 to 17 miles from each town, the highway passing through these two

towns.

As a matter of fact, I will say that I am convinced that the trail should belong to the Government. As to its being worth $17,000, you can see that it brings in a revenue to the county of $6,000 or $7,000 a year. It costs about $1,000 or $1,500 a year to keep it up. The money is to be expended for a road, as I say, and this morning I received a telegram which is signed by the vice president of the Flagstaff Rotary Club, Mr. F. H. Breen. He is a very prominent citizen. He is editor of the leading Republican paper in the county. It is also signed by Mr. T. A. Riordan, of the chamber of commerce, and is signed by Babbitt Bros. and others in the county.

The sentiment in the county is now overwhelmingly favorable to the United States Government acquiring the trail. I don't know exactly what the attitude of my colleague is on this.

Senator SMOOT. I was going to ask you about that.

Senator ASHURST. I think I may say that he does not like or favor it. I think it is due to him that I should say this, because it is my opinion; although we have not talked about it for a long time.

Senator MCKINLEY. Is there not an automobile road down to the bottom of the canyon now?

Senator ASHURST. No, sir.

Senator SMOOT. You can never get one there.

Mr. MATHER. You want an elevator.

Senator McKINLEY. Could not one be built?

Senator ASHURST. Yes; but there is not enough money in the National Treasury to build one. I do not know that I could say more. I think, as a matter of policy the Government ought to acquire that trail, and the county is willing to sell it.

Senator MCKELLAR. Is the price agreed on?

Senator ASHURST. The price is agreed on at $100,000.

Senator PHIPPS. We understand, Senator, that if the Government agrees to purchase the trail and pay $100,000 for it, that is the Bright Angel Trail from the top of the rim down to the river on the south side

Senator ASHURST. Yes, sir.

Senator PHIPPS. That that $100,000 will be expended by the State, under the supervision of the Federal Government, for the construction of the road satisfactorily to a point near Main?

Senator ASHURST. Yes.

Mr. MATHER. It will not be built by the State, but under the supervision of the National Park Service.

Senator PHIPPS. Under the supervision of the Federal Government?

Senator ASHURST. Yes, sir. It will be to a point where it will intersect with the old national trail.

Senator PHIPPS. So that it means that the National Government will construct a highway from the rim of the canyon, and in consideration of that it acquires title to the Bright Angel Trail? Senator ASHURST. You have stated it well, Senator. I thank you for giving me this opportunity to be heard, and I have nothing further to say unless some Senator asks some question. Senator SMOOT. We thank you, Senator.

(At 5 o'clock p. m. the subcommittee adjourned until to-morrow, Tuesday, February 5, 1924, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.)

INTERIOR DEPARTMENT APPROPRIATION BILL, 1925.

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 1924.

UNITED STATES SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS,

Washington, D. C.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10.30 o'clock a. m. in the committee room, Capitol, Senator Reed Smoot presiding. Present: Senators Smoot (chairman), Curtis, Spencer, Phipps, McKinley, Harris, Jones of New Mexico, and Neely.

Also Senators Gooding, Oddie, and Harreld, and Representative Smith of Idaho.

STATEMENT OF OTTAMAR HAMELE, CHIEF COUNSEL BUREAU OF RECLAMATION.

The CHAIRMAN (Senator Smoot). Please state your name and the position you hold.

Mr. HAMELE. Ottamar Hamele; I am chief counsel of the Bureau of Reclamation.

BOISE (IDAHO) RECLAMATION PROJECT.

Mr. CHAIRMAN. I want to comment first on the appropriation for the Boise project, before taking up Minidoka, which appears on page 67 of the bill. I should like to suggest a proviso to be substituted for the last proviso.

Senator SMOOT. Beginning on line 12, page 67?

Mr. HAMELE. Yes, sir. My suggestion is that the proviso read as follows:

Provided further, That the Secretary of the Interior may, in his discretion, contract with the Gem Irrigation District for development by the Government of electric power for use of the district, which contract shall provide for annual payments in advance from the district to the Government, and shall be entered into only in the event that the holders of district bonds and other principal creditors of the district shall subordinate their claims to the obligations of the district to the Government under such contract.

Senator CURTIS. May I ask you a question right there? Why do you specify the company?

Mr. HAMELE. This is the situation

Senator CURTIS. If you want to make a general statement covering the matter, go ahead; do not let me interfere with you.

Mr. HAMELE. I can answer it better by a general statement.
Senator CURTIS. Go ahead.

Mr. HAMELE. We recommend an appropriation of $450,000 to construct an electric power plant as a part of the Boise project.

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This power plant was to be used finally for the development of what is called the Black Canyon division of the Boise project, which requires power for pumping.

Senator SMOOT. Is that what you term the Gem project?

Mr. HAMELE. No; that is not the Gem project. The Gem irrigation district is an old district of about 25,000 acres of irrigable land that is fully developed at the present time.

Senator SMOOT. That is a private project?

Mr. HAMELE. It is a private project. It is a pumping project, and it gets its electric energy for pumping from the Idaho Power Co. The Idaho Power Co. has served notice upon it that it can not furnish it with power in the future; that it must cut off its power. The Gem district has to get power either from that source or some other source, or else the lands of the district will go back into desert. It is heavily involved financially, but the creditors of the district are willing to subordinate their claims to the claims of the Government in so far as payment for electricity for irrigation purposes is concerned.

This contract with the Gem irrigation district is intended to be only a temporary contract. It is not for the purpose of giving the district a permanent supply of power, because the Government will use this power for the Boise project proper when the Black Canyon division is developed; but in the interval our plan has been to save the Gem irrigation district from going to pieces by supplying them temporarily with power, and that is the purpose of this proviso. Senator SMOOT. That is entirely a new project?

Mr. HAMELE. No.

Senator SMOOT. I mean, as far as the Government is concerned? Mr. HAMELE. The Black Canyon division is one of the old division projects.

Senator SMOOT. No; I mean the Gem project itself. That is a private project to-day, is it not?

Mr. HAMELE. A private project; yes.

Senator SMOOT. Then why do you say it is not a new project for the Government?

Mr. HAMELE. This project, the building of the power plant, as we view it, is simply a continuation of construction of the Boise project for the development of the Black Canyon division. The clauses which are contained in the bill at the present time would forbid any contract with the Gem irrigation district. It would not be feasible.

Senator NEELY. In a word, what are the net results that could be hoped for from the adoption of the amendment that you have suggested?

Mr. HAMELE. The result would be that the Government would go ahead and build this power plant. It would make a contract, a temporary contract, probably covering the next 8 or 10 years. Senator HARRIS. What would the plant cost?

Mr. HAMELE. The plant is estimated to cost $450,000. The cost of that plant will be repaid finally as a part of the construction cost of the Black Canyon division of the Boise project, the present project. The result of this appropriation would be that the Government would expend $450,000 for this plant, and would build the plant..

Senator SMOOT. What would the people do after you took that power away?

Mr. HAMELE. The temporary contract, at a guess, would probably run for 8 or 10 years before the Black Canyon division could be developed.

Senator SMOOT. Do you mean before the Boise project will be completed?

Mr. HAMELE. Yes.

Senator SMOOT. What is it going to cost-I mean, completed? Mr. HAMELE. I have not the figures at hand as to the completed project.

Senator SMOOT. You say it will take 8 or 10 years. You must have figured something on what it is going to cost for that period. We know what it has cost up to date.

Mr. HAMELE. It has cost somewhere around $12,000,000 to date. Senator SMOOт. What more do you expect to expend in the next 10 years upon that project?

Mr. HAMELE. I can not give that, Mr. Chairman, in dollars.
Senator SMOOT. Approximately?

Senator McKINLEY. Ten million dollars?

Senator GOODING. Mr. Chairman, if I may be permitted to say a word, there can be but very little more expended.

Senator SMOOT. Then, why will it take 10 years to do it?

Senator GOODING. That is before they are going to get to it, I suppose-before they will reach it.

Mr. HAMELE. The reason why it will take that long is not because it is actually necessary to take that amount of time to do the construction work. All of the construction work that would be necessary on the Boise project, if the funds were supplied, probably could be done in a couple of years.

us.

Senator SMOOT. Why do you not do it, then?

Mr. HAMELE. Because Congress does not appropriate funds for

Senator McKINLEY. How much would it take? Would it take $500,000 or $10,000,000?

Mr. HAMELE. It would take a rather small amount. I can not give a figure at this moment. I can supply the committee with the exact estimate by checking up on it.

Senator MCKINLEY. Would it take $500,000?

Mr. HAMELE. Oh, yes; it would take much more than that.
Senator MCKINLEY. Would it take $3,000,000 ?

Mr. HAMELE. I should say it would take two or three millions more; yes.

Senator SMOOT. Will you check it up?

Mr. HAMELE. I should prefer to check that up.

Senator SMOOT. Write us a letter and tell us what it would cost. Mr. HAMELE. Yes; I shall be glad to do that.

Senator NEELY. When the project is completed, what service will be rendered to the people, and how many people will be benefited, or what area of land will be benefited by the completion_of_the project? It is, perhaps, in the hearings, but I have not had an opportunity to read them.

Mr. HAMELE. The Boise project, when completed, is intended to include a total of 353,000 irrigable acres of land, approximately.