there are, however, several articles which vances to the royal family, though satisI feel it incumbent on me to advert to. factory reasons can be given for them. I In page 52 it will appear, that part of the can state with truth to the House, that debt is the debt under the first class, under the pressure and difficulty which including the debts incurred by the queen, existed with regard to the state of his on account of the younger branches of majesty's household and civil list, I conher family. When it is considered what ceive his majesty's ministers would have is the number and time of life of the been little less than criminal if they had younger branches of the royal family, and not adopted some method of relief. I am that the expense on their account falls unwilling to enter into particulars, unless exclusively on the queen, it will be no called upon; but I am prepared. His small matter of astonishment that the debt majesty's ministers had no alternative beshould have amounted to no more than a tween the one they have adopted, and the sum of 28,6344. A very large portion of criminality of exposing his majesty to inthis arose upon the marriage of the prince convenience and difficulty.-The chan of Wales. In the same page will be found cellor of the exchequer then went over all a charge for the princess Charlotte. It the items of which the arrears now standis made to commence in 1797, though it ing are composed, the amount of which was not advanced till a later period. I was 990,0537., a sum which, he said, it am sure it will be felt by the committee, was impossible to contemplate without that it is quite impossible the expense of regret; but he had stated how a large supporting the princess Charlotte should portion of it had been created; no part be borne by the prince of Wales, consi- of it was owing to profusion, none of it dering the restrictions to which he is sub- had been corruptly employed, and it apject by the act of parliament for arranging peared from the report what a vast porthe liquidation of his debts. It will, per- tion of the whole of this went to the haps, be for the committee to say, whe- necessary purposes of the civil governther it is not a charge that ought to be ment, and was not at all appropriated, taken from the civil list altogether, and as some had most erroneously supposed, thrown on the consolidated fund? It is a for his majesty's personal use, or for his charge that cannot be borne by the prince own household establishment. Now, he of Wales, and ought not to be imposed would ask any gentleman in the comupon his majesty. I beg the attention of mittee, if any there were, who were disthe committee to pages 39 and 40, re- posed to advert to the amount of the preferring to the pensions to the late ministers sent deficiency, to compare it with those at foreign courts. I am well aware that former aids of the civil list, to which he some farther information is necessary. had adverted in the early part of his obAmple information will be given; and, servations to the committee, to comwhatever deficiency there may be in mine, pare the advance made in the expenwill be supplied by my noble friend near diture under the various heads of the me. I will observe that, with regard to report, on the subject of the civil list, foreign ministers resident, it has been and then to see whether there was to be universally admitted, that the estimate found in any part of the expenditure the made in 1786 was insufficient. The pen-character of profusion? Had we seen any sions of the late ministers at foreign courts have increased considerably within the last two years; yet notwithstanding the increase which has taken place within the last two years is so considerable, the actual increase in the last sixteen years amounts to no more than 129,6431. There is another branch which falls under the head of Occasional Payments. The committee perceiving there was an error of 20,000. thought it right to avail themselves of the information contained in the book required to be kept by Mr. Burke's bill. In page 46 of the Report will be found the amount of royal bounties. It is not my intention to observe on the ad

thing but what was to be esteemed a necessary splendor on the part of the royal family?-Certainly none. We had seen one sort of abundance on the part of the chief magistrate of the community in which we had the happiness to live. Every virtue that belonged to that character abounded in him; but with respect to outward splendor, the loyal feelings of the people would have gone much further, if desired, than they had hitherto been called upon to do; and he would venture to say, that the people had rather been disappointed for want of more, than satiated with too much of that splendor. The sum advanced for the discharge of

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Now, although it was not his Intention to propose any permanent addition now to the civil list, yet he had no difficulty in saying it would, in the present condition of things, be impossible to maintain, without further aid, the necessary splendor of the Crown, and to support the necessary expenditure of the royal family; and therefore, he hoped, that some relief would be afforded to the civil list hereafter, by taking away from it some charges which at present bore, and which, in his opinion, did not belong to it, and laying them on the consolidated fund. Several heads of charges now upon the civil list, and which had been so during the war, might with propriety be charged on the consolidated fund, and which charges were very heavy and enormous on his majesty's civil list revenue during the war. The account of all which should be laid before them: and after such accounts were laid before the House, he hoped the subject would be brought forward again for discussion, for which he should be perfectly ready. He thought it was unnecessary for him to trouble the committee any further, for the present; he was thankful for the indulgence he had met in the course of what he had delivered before the com

the arrears of the civil list for the same period, in another reign, was more than was now required. And he wished to know, whether there was any reason for supposing that, although 1,400,000l. were justly granted at a former period, there ought not to be 900,000l. granted now? For his part, comparing the present with the former time, and that when the last aid was granted, and the unavoidable expenses in the interim, of which every individual of condition in this country felt the force, in his own and his family expenses, he thought the present arrears extremely moderate, that it gave full proof of remarkable frugality; that the economy was very great; for which reason he trusted there would be no opposition to the resolution, with which he should have the honour of concluding. He had no hesitation in saying, that, according to his opinion, the augmentation for the younger branches of the royal family, or advances made to them, should not in future be chargeable on the civil list, but on the consolidated fund, of which however parliament were to judge. If the House adopted the resolution which he should have the honour of moving, the expense in the first instance would fall on the people; there was, however, a circum-mittee, some parts of which were naturally stance to be attended to in that particular. The committee would recollect that he expressed a hope, on a former occasion, that there would be some means of a diminution of the burthens of the people by the sale of the crown lands in the West Indies, St. Vincent, &c. that was not, however, to be provided for at this moment, but might become matter for future discussion; but he begged to be understood, as being most clearly of opinion, that without any reference to such resources as that to which he had now hinted, and if there had been no hope of any such resource, the payment of the present arrears of the civil list would be matter of unquestionable propriety, and such as would become the wisdom of parliament to provide for. The subject therefore of these resources from the West Indies, was fit matter for a separate and distinct discussion. The civil list arrears ought, in his opinion, to be paid off without taking that matter into consideration at all. He was well convinced that if there were no resources, but such as he had hinted at, parliament would find them abundant, in the good sense, the justice, and the loyalty of the people of England.

dry and unengaging, and, he was afraid rendered more so from the manner in which it had been treated by him. He should now conclude with moving, "That it is the opinion of this committee, that a sum not exceeding 990,0531. be granted to his majesty, to discharge arrears and debts due and owing on the civil list, on the 5th of January, 1802."

Mr. Fox rose and said:-Sir, there is no man in this House less disposed than I feel myself, at any time, to find fault with such measures as may be conducive to the comfort, the splendor, and the dignity of every branch of the royal family; and particularly what may tend to the ease and happiness of the chief magistrate of the state, as far as I can reconcile such proceedings to the duty I owe to my own constituents in particular, and the general interests of the country. If it could be supposed that humour or temper were to govern any part of this discussion, the present is a moment in which I could have little disposition to indulge them. I have not been more than about four hours in town; and, since leaving my carriage, have heard of two articles of news than which I know of

and the country provide for all the expences (and God knows they have been severe enough lately!) of our fleets and armies, the revenues allotted to the crown must necessarily be at the disposition, and subject to the control of parliament. It would be a strange and absurd doctrine indeed, to maintain that the public should take upon itself all the expense, and leave the revenue precisely as it was before: such a doctrine is too monstrous to have met with any support even in the worst of times. Fortunately for us, some of our kings have been too improvident, by which they outran their incomes.

nothing of a public nature that could be more grateful to my feelings. The first is that in which every man, wishing well to his country, must rejoice, I mean the conclusion of the definitive treaty of peace with France; and the second, that it is the intention of the minister to move for the repeal of the income-tax,-a tax the most oppressive, pernicious, and vexatious, that ever was imposed in any country; and tending more than any other to subvert that respect in which a good government ought always to be held by the people, and without which there can be very little security for its subsisting for any length of time. This, how- In treating of this question I do not ever, is a subject which is by no means wish to be severe; but I understand, connected with good or ill humour, and that so much stress has lately been made is solely dependent on what is consistent on the claims which some persons suppose with our attachment to the throne, a the crown ought still to have upon a part proper view to the laws of the land, and at least, if not the whole of the old herethe sacred principles of the British con- ditary revenue, that I cannot withhold stitution. However I may have been in- expressing briefly my opinion on that structed or entertained by the right hon. subject. Were we now to allow the heregentleman, in the history he has given us ditary revenue to be the same as it was in of the civil list during the last century, I former times, surely no gentleman could do not conceive it to have been precisely possibly say that it should be applied to in point, or to bear strongly on the present the purposes of the civil list only. I question. My ideas upon that subject admit that the revenue of James 2nd was differ vastly from those which have been two millions annually; but I believe no brought forward in this committee; nor one will venture to assert that it was can I conceive how any thing respecting granted only for civil-list purposes. From the revenues of the crown previously the time, however, that parliament exoto the Revolution, has more analogy to nerated the crown (for that is the fact) the present civil list than what may be from the expense of levying and supdrawn from the remotest antiquity. The porting fleets and armies, from that morevenues of the crown before the event ment the hereditary revenues became the alluded to, compared with the present property of the public. It was so undercivil list, was as gold to silver. The stood, and so expressed on the election king certainly possessed immense reve- of William 3rd. He could hold no herenues in former times, totally independent ditary revenue jure coronæ, for he was of parliament: but for this revenue, what not the heir to the crown when he suchad he to do? He was to raise and main- ceeded James 2nd. I am aware that a great tain fleets and armies in times of war, as misunderstanding prevailed upon this well as in peace. It was no private in-subject, and perhaps continues to precome of his own, as an individual, but a vail; but we are not now infected with trust from the public. It is very true, the superstitious notions imbibed by some that such revenue was not adequate to persons of that day. We know that meet extraordinary occasions; and though William 3rd ascended the throne, not by the monarch was bound, at his own ex-right, but by the choice and election of pence, to defend the country, and main- the people, and therefore had no rights tain the expenses of wars, as well as civil jure corona, nor any other rights but such government, in cases of necessity he ap-as had been covenanted. So of George 3rd. plied to parliament for assistance. Whether that mode was preferable to that which has been since adopted, is a question not worth discussing at this moment; but I am free to confess, that I am a strong advocate in favour of the modern system. Now, however, that the House

He is not the heir of James 2nd, but of William 3rd; nor has he any right to this hereditary revenue, unless we go back to the ancient and absolute rights of prescription. What did the parliament of William 3rd do? Instead of the hereditary revenue, they appropriated others for