commencement of hostilities, Lascars can be employed as substitutes; and, without any interruption to our commerce, an immense number of hands can be given to the navy. This is an advantage not to be derived from the trade to the West Indies, or any other colonial trade on the globe. brought to London, and, being here cor- in case of a new war, will add materially rupted, would on their return corrupt to our maritime strength. Upon the their countrymen. They would thus carry a bad report of us to Hindostan, the English character would be degraded, and the English empire in the East shaken to its foundations. All this is really urged with gravity. Would it not be possible to prevent the Lascars from ever entering London; we trade to China, but our men are not allowed an unrestrained intercourse with the Chinese. It would be an easy matter, at a small expense, to superintend the Lascars when on shore; and, though the expense should be considerable, the profits of the trade would be amply able to bear it. It is a curious fact, Sir, that the company are daily in the practice of bringing home Lascars; and if am rightly informed, those whom they do bring home are allowed to wander about the streets and to die for want, while those brought home by the private traders live on shore in a kind of barracks prepared for them, and are watched over with the greatest care. 4. The shipping interest would suffer. Sir, if I am rightly informed, the shipping interest are by no means adverse to the plan. The price of timber in this country is now so enormous, that there is scarcely any profit to be made by building ships, while there is a great deal to be made by repairing them. If trade increases, and the number of ships entering our ports is increased, they therefore justly think they would ultimately be gainers. 5. An argument still more formidable is, that the British sailors would be injured. In all cases where they are to be found, the merchants are willing to employ British sailors in preference. It is their interest to do so. Seven British sailors are supposed to be equal to twelve lascars; and, though some give a different proportion, all agree in making the difference prodigious. Thus the loss of tonnage, when Lascars are employed, more than counterbalances the cheapness of their wages. The merchants are willing that a clause should be introduced, enacting that, when they are to be found, a part, or the whole of the crew shall be English; and that certificates of the impossibility of finding them shall be given by the court of directors, or the council at the presidencies in India. If this trade is placed under proper regulations, it will afford encouragement to a prodigious number of our matiners, it will greatly increase their number; and, [VOL. XXXVI.] The admission of India-built ships cannot be objected to, if it were for no other reason than the present scarcity in this country of timber for the navy. The deficiency begins to be felt to a most alarming degree. But the wood of which these ships are built is preferable to the best oak, and it can be imported for all purposes, free of expense, in the form of a ship. In the opinion of the court of directors, a grand national object like this is to be sacrificed, because it would interfere with selfish views! During the war the trade of foreigners to India has had to struggle with considerable difficulties. Now that peace has arrived, we shall have not only our former rivals, but France and Holland; and there will be few obstacles to their being assisted by British capital, if, through the unhappy influence of a few merchants in Leadenhall-street, it is not allowed to be employed at home. France has all her colonies restored to her. There is no clause in the treaty to say that she shall not trade in the Indian seas. There could be none; and the only way in which we can prevent our commerce being wrested from us, is to free it from every unreasonable restraint. If foreigners are once allowed to get possession of it, we may discover our error only in time to find it irretrievable. Now we may secure to ourselves this inexhaustible fund of wealth; but if we unprecedentedly allow it to slip from us, it is gone for ever. Whenever our commerce is ruined, we shall have no other consolation than that we have preserved the sacred band of thirty directors. It likewise ought never to be forgotten that all that leaves our scale, falls into the scale of France, so that the loss acts doubly against us. I think I have said enough to prove the propriety of my motion. I do not wish the House to come to a decision now. Let the whole business be submitted to a committee, and sifted to the bottom. It will then be seen whether we are not unnecessarily weakening ourselves and aggrandising our [U] enemies; whether we are not doing every thing to discourage manufactures and to cramp trade; whether we are not wantonly shutting up sources of revenue and maritime strength; and whether, if these manœuvres prevail, the sales in Leadenhall-street themselves will not soon be unattended? Sir, I am sure that this subject will force itself on parliament; and that though this motion be rejected, it will not determine the fate of the measure. Sir William concluded by moving, "That a Committee be appointed to take into consideration the Papers laid before this House in the last session of parliament relating to the proceedings of the East India Company, respecting the Trade between India and Europe, referred to in the said Papers, and to report the same, as it shall appear to them, to the House." Mr. Chancellor Addington said, that no member could possibly attach greater importance than he did to the subject now under discussion. He was ready, too, to admit, that the hon. baronet was actuated by the purest and most disinterested sense of duty, while he allowed with pleasure that he had conducted the discussion of a subject so extremely interesting with that candour and good sense which could not fail to have excited universal approbation. The hon. baronet had traced with great accuracy the history of the East India company, from the earliest period of its establishment, down to the present moment. He should first advert to the provisions adopted in 1793, when the House renewed the charter. The private trade had not been publicly acknowledged previous to that period; and it was in 1793, for the first time, that it was formally recognized, and special provisions made for giving new facilities to its extension. At this time, the company were bound to furnish 3,000 tons for the importation of the articles embarked in that trade into this country. This allowance had happily been found to be far from being equal to the purpose in view; but those who had framed this act, foreseeing that such an allowance would be inadequate, had lodged in the hands of commissioners the power of enlarging it to that amount which circumstances should require. The framers of this bill had, in the provisions they adopted, endeavoured to give this private trade all those facilities which might at once be perfectly consistent with the interests of the com pany, while they afforded every reasonable degree of encouragement to the efforts of private speculation. If the court of directors had not given this trade all the facilities which parliament had intended, a fair ground of parliamentary interference would be opened. Agreeing most cordially with the hon. baronet in the expediency of giving every possible facility to the private trade, he trusted that if, from what had been stated, he should be enabled to draw an opposite conclusion, the House would be disposed to come to a corresponding decision. The hon. gentleman had said, that every governor in India, without exception, was in favour of the private trade conducted on the principles which he had laid down; but whence he had been able to collect this, he was unable to discover. Unquestionably it was true, that his noble friend, marquis Wellesley, had, by the exercise of his discretionary power, and by using extraordinary exertions, employed several ships in 1798 for bringing to Europe the articles connected with the private trade. An order from the court of directors was sent out by the next fleet, prohibiting the importation of any more goods in this way, and, in 1799, the practice was discontinued. Since that time it was renewed; and he had the satisfaction of stating that the court of directors had agreed to shipping for the purposes of the ensuing season. They had even consented, that the shipping employed in the Red Sea should be appropriated to the conveyance of the private trade for 1803. Thus they had not only agreed to confirm the determination of marquis Wellesley, but had expressed their willingness to employ a large proportion of shipping exclusively for the benefit of the private trade, and were even engaged to furnish additional shipping, if the trade of 1803 should require a larger proportion than that which they had assigned. From this statement, therefore, the House would perceive, that the pri vate trader would experience no inconvenience, no loss, no disadvantage whatever, till 1804, even if no new regulations were to be adopted: while sufficient time was allowed to form every regulation which might seem to be demanded by an impartial contemplation of the whole of the circumstances connected with so interesting a subject. The first question was, Whether the court of directors had given those facilities which, by the decision of parliament, they were required to extend to the private trade? He had already stated that they had given the facilities required. The next was, Whether or not there existed a just expectation that these facilities would be extended in future? In directing the attention of the House to these points, he wished that the nature of the trade in question might be fully understood. The capital employed in the trade, it would be recollected, was not drawn from this country, but was a capital composed of the surplus of the salaries enjoyed by the different servants of the company in India. This surplus was either vested in the Treasury of the company, and bills to the amount drawn on England, or it was vested in goods which constituted the trade which the House was at present considering. The amount of the surplus had gradually increased, and the investments in the private trade had experienced a proportional increase. In carrying on this trade, the hon. gentleman had contended, that British subjects were not allowed those advantages which were given to the foreign trader. On examination, however, this assertion would be found to be groundless. To ascertain this, it was only necessary to attend a little to the manner in which the trade was conducted. No persons were, allowed to engage in it who were not licensed by the company's servants; and they were prevented from buying goods formed of the choicest materials, and manufactured in the richest manner. Saltpetre, too, found an exception to the articles which they were permitted in the first instance te purchase. But this exclusion with regard to fine goods referred only to the period prior, to the supply of the ships of the company with these articles. After this supply was obtained, the market was open to the private traders, and the previous exclusion ceased to operate. They might then purchase, not merely the rough part of the goods, but the richest materials, and the most costly manufacture. With the exceptions he had specified, every other branch of manufactures, and every other article of produce, were within the range of their purchase. Such was the situation in which the private traders were placed; and he knew no difference with respect to foreigners, except that it was not necessary for them to be licensed previous to their engaging in the private trade. They enjoyed no other privilege which was not participated by British subjects; and therefore he was at a loss to conceive what those advantages were which the hon. baronet had described to be in the possession of foreigners. But here the hon. baronet had stated an object to be gained by the private trade, and a most important national object it was: an object no less than that of facilitating, by means of ships built in India, the supply of timber for the commercial and royal navy of this country. The hon. baronet had dwelt strongly on this point, and had been extremely anxious to show that there was no other means of so effectually promoting this great object. It was his duty in answer to this, to state, that the court of directors had expressed, in the strongest terms, their anxiety to give every possible facility to any measure calculated for the advantage of the royal navy: they were even willing to engage to use every effort to cheapen the price of timber, by loading particular ships with goods for their own use, so as to reduce the freight to a more moderate rate. The price of ship timber within a few years had increased in a most extraordinary manner, and every plan for effecting a reduction was deserving of serious attention. With respect to the use of ships built in India, for the private trade, this was one of the cases in which the opinions on the subject proceeded to extremes. It was the opinion of his noble friend, the governor-general of India, and of a right hon. gentleman, that ships built in India should only be employed in the trade; and this was the point in which he had the misfortune to differ from them, while the court of directors up to that day, had as strenuously maintained, that the trade should be exclusively confined to British ships. He had now, however, a high degree of pleasure in being enabled to state that the directors had agreed that either British ships, or those built in India, if attended with equal convenience, should be employed; their only objection being with regard to the price. În calculating the comparative expense of British and India built ships, the hon. gentleman had founded his calculations on a state of war; but was it fair to assume, that during a period of peace this expense would not be diminished? It certainly was not; and this was another reason for opposing the motion that time might be allowed to try the experiment for three years. By recommending delay, he trusted that he should not be thought indifferent to the import ance of the question. The trade was unquestionably of very high consequence. While it opened a channel for the importation of the branches of Indian manufactures, and the articles of Indian produce, which the company had not the means of introducing on their own account; and while it enabled those of the company's servants, who had a certain portion of capital to dispose of, to dispose of in an advantageous manner; it, on the other hand, presented new openings for the commerce, and new encouragements to the manufactures, of the mother country. It was a trade not only attended with great advantages, but accompanied with little risk. It took little capital from the country, yet in its consequences was calculated to make London the emporium of the trade of India. What was said on the consequences which would flow from the employment of Lascars in the navigation of ships coming from India, appeared in his mind extremely inconclusive. That foreign seamen might, without the smallest impropriety, occasionally come in aid of British sailors, could not be denied; but that there was any reasonable fear of the foreigners supplanting the British subjects, was a proposition to which he could not accede. It was impossible to imagine, that, known as the superior skill and intrepidity of British seamen were, their services would be refused for the services of another description of men, whose qualifications were confessedly inferior. On the subject of colonization he was not prepared to agree with the hon. gentleman. He thought it an object of high importance, to prevent an increase of settlements in India, and to discourage every plan which was designed to increase or consolidate such settlements. He admitted, that the cases of America and our settlements in India were not parallel; but at the same time he thought that our experience in America ought at least to have the effect of teaching us caution. On the contemplation of the whole question, he did not think that the hon. gentleman had made out such a case as could be considered by the House as a full and fair ground for instituting an inquiry. He therefore felt it his duty to move the previous question. Mr. Johnstone said, that if there ever had been discovered any disposition on the part of the court of directors to agree to an amicable arrangement of the dispute with the private merchants, the present So motion would have been unnecessary. Its object was, merely to put to fair trial the plan which the marquis Wellesley had sanctioned and acted upon. If this plan was to be fairly put to the test for two years, the private merchants would be perfectly satisfied. Was, however, any such disposition apparent on the face of the papers on the table? Certainly not; and hence had originated the necessity for the motion. The right hon. gentleman, when mentioning the subject of the concession offered by the court of directors, did not seem to understand the nature of the concession to be granted. He had thought that the ships in the Red Sea would be amply sufficient for every purpose of the private trade in 1803; but for his part, he could not help being of a different opinion. The House would recollect, that 40,000 ton of shipping had been originally employed in conveying the division of the Indian army up the Red Sea. Of these, 20,000 tons had already returned to different ports in India, and of the other half, a number of ships were disabled, while others were discharged, and would come home in the ensuing season. that he was afraid, that out of the 20,000 tons, appropriated for the use of the private trade, there would not be a sufficient number of disposeable ships to bring home the property vested in the private trade. There seemed to be a wish among the enemies of the private trade, to represent the plan as altogether new; whereas it was not new, but had been pursued in the several seasons since 1798, when the governor general of India had acted upon it by sending home private property in ships. built in the country. After the trial it had undergone, he defied any one to point out a single inconvenience that had arisen from it. It had received the support of every one of the company's servants in India, who had acknowledged the beneficial effects that it was calculated to produce. The right hon. gentleman seemed to think, that the private trade was solely a trade of remittance, and that the capital was made up of the saving of the salaries of the different servants of the company in India. This was, however, an exceedingly erroneous idea of the nature and extent of this important branch of trade. He believed the whole amount of these savings to be a million and a half yearly. Now it was known, that the company had bills drawn on Europe to this amount, and thus the whole of the he should vote, in opposition to the proposal, was, that he held it to be a direct attack upon the charter of the India com sum which was to form the capital of the private trade was completely absorbed. The truth was, that the facilities of navigation had opened a variety of new chan-pany, without any plea of justice or nenels; and the East Indies would have to receive, at no remote period, a balance in specie. The private trade, independent of all the concerns of the company, could not now be estimated at less than an annual sum of from four millions and a half to five millions sterling. It had been asked, what were the advantages which foreigners possessed in carrying on this trade, above British subjects? Undoubtedly, if the plan of marquis Wellesley was to be acted upon, and if the private property of British traders was to be sent home in ships of the country, instead of ships sent out by the company, foreigners would possess no advantage. But, on the other hand, if the plan was given up, if the company were to send out ships to bring home private property, and if they were to be allowed to assort and manage the cargoes as heretofore, these checks went certainly to put the British merchant in a far worse situation than that in which the foreigner was placed. On the subject of colonization, he had no hesitation in saying, that he was decidedly hostile to any system which would attempt to colonize our eastern possessions. He would not say how long we could expect to retain our dominions in India; but he was a sanguine man, indeed, who could expect our empire there to continue for 200 years. It appeared to him to be an empire of opinion, chiefly inspired by the awe of our first conquest; and it was our interest not to pursue a plan that might lead the natives to reflect upon their own strength: for which reason, he thought there was no sound policy in having a great many Europeans settled there; but rather that the plan of European settlers should be discouraged, because this must have the effect of teaching the natives, in time, the force of their own natural strength. Mr. Wallace said, that the proposition of the hon. baronet was evidently calculated, through the medium of a committee, purporting to examine merely the claims of private traders, to introduce a discussion relative to every part of our Indian affairs; which should be guarded against at this time, when speculations were indulged respecting the India company, which struck at the root of that establishment. The principle upon which cessity. The opinion of Mr. Dundas was confidently quoted in this discussion; but, in his judgment, that opinion went to an extent which no reason could be advanced to warrant. He, for one, was not prepared to go so far. From the papers on the table he drew his principal argument against the motion; for it appeared, that the India company could not be found to allow the private trading at all beyond the amount of that settled by the act of 1793, unless it was intended glaringly to entrap their charter. However the motion might be disguised, it would tend to put the spirit of the act of 1793 in opposition to its express letter, and to introduce a question between public faith and public expediency. The principles upon which that act was founded, he stated to be, to procure to the merchandise and manufactures of the British empire exclusively the market of India; and to maintain the influence and power of the company, as interwoven with the power of the country, by securing to them alone the communication between India and Europe. At that time a private trade did exist, under the patronage of the company, but in a crippled state. It was enlarged, and wisely, for many reasons. Among others, from the state of timber in India, and the demand here, it was desirable that India-built ships might be allowed to import it into Great Britain. It was also desirable to prevent the effects of foreign intrigue, and the aggrandisement of foreign power in India. That was the policy which saved India from the machinations of France. Now that, by the treaty of peace, the French establishments were restored, it was more necessary than ever to persevere in that system; for, by giving facility to the trade of India with this country, we should make the foreign factories scarcely worth maintaining. With respect to the danger apprehended from colonization in India, it was the most chimerical that could be imagined. Was it reasonable to entertain any such apprehensions, in a country under the direction of a government so powerful, and supported by an immense army? He showed that the extension of the private trade would be for the advantage of the company, by stating, that in 1798, the percentage profit to the company, on goods |