Mr. COLLIER. And their meetings are not attended primarily by officials of the governments but rather by technical

Mr. CRAVEN. They are attended by representatives designated by the various governments and in this country the State Department sends both Government representatives, people in the Government, as well as private enterprise people.

Mr. COLLIER. Might I ask what official representation has there been-well, specifically, isn't the Soviet Union represented in this? Mr. CRAVEN. They have the right to be represented. Whether they are going to appear at the next meeting, I do not know.

Mr. COLLIER. Have they appeared?

Mr. CRAVEN. They have appeared at many meetings. They have had people present at many meetings.

The representatives from the U.S.S.R. were present at the conference in Geneva in 1959, the International Communications Conference, and participated very thoroughly in that conference.

Mr. COLLIER. How many of the so-called satellite countries were represented?

Mr. CRAVEN. There were 80-some-odd nations represented. The U.S.S.R. and Czechoslovakia were represented. Hungary was represented and Bulgaria. Red China was not a member of the Union and was not represented. And Outer Mongolia was not represented. South Vietnam was not represented and some others were not represented, but the vast majority of the Iron Curtain Europeans were represented. However, East Germany was not represented.

Mr. COLLIER. When you say they were represented, of course, in this sense they would be represented actually by representatives of the governments?

Mr. CRAVEN. That is correct.

Mr. COLLIER. Rather than by the technical people. Is that right? Mr. CRAVEN. Representatives of the governments. But, generally speaking, they were communication experts, including the technicians as well as the administrators.

Mr. COLLIER. Was their attitude, as far as you could gather at the preliminary meeting, one that was amenable to a cooperative program in this field?

Mr. CRAVEN. The Chairman of our delegation to the Geneva Conference, while we had some political differences, he secured an agreement with them and they were more or less cooperative.

Mr. COLLIER. Does there not exist an urgency in dealing with this matter now, that would dictate an earlier meeting of this group than January of 1964.

Mr. CRAVEN. There is an urgency, all right, but I do not think you can secure international agreement to an earlier meeting.

This is 1963, by the way.

Mr. COLLIER. Well, as I understand it, they have no authority to consider any agreements other than to more or less deal with the overall problem, and to make such recommendations as those with the authority to an agreement you might adopt?

Mr. CRAVEN. That is the CCIR, I think you are talking about. Mr. COLLIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. CRAVEN. Well, the CCIR is composed of technical representatives from the various governments, and in this country, from private enterprise.

They are meeting early in 1963 and they will make recommendations with respect to this subject, the technical aspects of this subject, to the international conference, the administrative conference, called for in the latter part of 1963.

Now, they are confined to recommendations only. We hope, of course, that as a result of our experimentation, if we can get started early, that we will contribute very valuable information and we will have, perhaps, superior technical information which may be helpful, and in addition to that, will as we are now, collaborate with other nations in these experiments.

Mr. COLLIER. At the present time, Mr. Craven, does not the International Telecommunications Union simply approve the establishment of all commercial communications systems, the installations and so on, as it is directed through the CIA or the AID, as you prefer, and the firms that secure loans for establishment of communications systems, through the International Loan Development Fund-is that correct? Mr. CRAVEN. I think that is correct.

Mr. COLLIER. They have no official authority, actually, in this field as of now, other than, perhaps, recommendations?

Mr. CRAVEN. Well the International Telecommunications Union does not, of itself, establish communications systems.

It merely comes to an agreement between the various nations as to the procedures that shall be used in communications from one nation to another.

You will have to have some standardization. It comes to an agreement with respect as to the frequency to be assigned to various series, such as aircraft, ships, and point-to-point services and things of that

nature.

They have some additional regulations concerning the charges to be made for the various types of services, such as marine services and so forth.

We do not belong to that. We have not subscribed to those.

Mr. COLLIER. I have two further questions: One, in the process of the experimentation and research in this field, has there been evidence that these bands or the communication system can be jammed?

Mr. CRAVEN. Well, at the present time, we contemplate that there is a possibility of jamming.

It depends on the technical characteristics of the system that we are ultimately going to adopt.

Mr. COLLIER. And one final question, and that is this: Then it would appear from our little exchange here that it eventually will then be necessary to establish an official organization, international organization, properly constituted to deal with the overall international problem in this field.

Is that right?

Mr. CRAVEN. One has already been established. That is the International Telecommunications Union.

Mr. COLLIER. Well the question of whether, in its present jurisdiction, it would have been blessed with powers at this time to deal in this field with broad authority to do that

Mr. CRAVEN. We have taken the view, sir, that the action of the International Telecommunications Union at the International Conference of 1959, has recognized, by its allocation of frequencies, this type of service. And it has already been done.

Now we think that the principles of international law have been established; that is, the peaceful use of satellites for communications purposes.

And at this stage of the game, sir, I would like to explain a little bit further, there is no new principle. The basic principles of communications have already been established.

We still use the pickup of services, such as the telephone system in this country. We still use the ground base radio stations, and we still use automatic relays, but in this instance, instead of being on the ground they are up in the air, up in space.

Mr. COLLIER. Their present authority then would simply be extended to embrace the satellite system of communications?

Mr. CRAVEN. There is nothing new in the communications principles that is here at all.

You are operating under established orders which have been in effect for many years.

Mr. COLLIER. I see. Thank you very much, sir.
That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will have to adjourn now in view of the hour and the House meeting. I had hoped that we could continue this afternoon in order to conclude with the Commission, but, in view of the scheduled program in the House, we will be unable to meet this afternoon.

Can you come back for a while in the morning, Mr. Chairman? Mr. MINOW. Could we go off the record for a moment, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. Back on the record.

Mr. NELSEN. Mr. Chairman, I noted that two members were absent when the Commission took action on this report.

Is there any dissenting opinion on the part of those who were absent?

I was interested in that. If there is, I would like to have in mind that we would like to get at that at a future meeting.

The CHAIRMAN. We asked that question earlier and

Mr. NELSEN. The first answer was that it was the unanimous decision, but then it later was indicated that two members were not pres

ent.

Mr. FORD. Well, I was not present at the meeting and do not have the benefit of the discussion of the other Commissioners.

In preparing for the meeting I had certain ideas of modification of the document which I thought should be made.

Whether or not I would have had a dissenting opinion, had I heard the discussions, I do not know.

But I thought that, in view of the fact that I did not participate and may, at some future time when the matter comes again, have a little different position, that it would be a little unfair to the committee and to me to have it go in the record as a unanimous item when I was not there.

Mr. NELSEN. Thank you.

Mr. FORD. That is the sole basis. I had no prepared dissent.
Mr. MINOW. Commissioner Hyde.

Mr. HYDE. My position was exactly that of Commissioner Ford's. I did agree to the original statement of policy. What was up for consideration in the meeting was the petition to reconsider, as I understand it.

I did not hear the discussion then but I did not want the record to appear that I had participated in it.

Mr. NELSEN. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will adjourn until 10 o'clock promptly tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the committee was recessed, to reconvene at 10 a.m., Wednesday, July 26, 1961.)

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