before you could get any action from the courts, regardless of what the action of the court was. But, under this present bill, fifty days is the limit within which you must at least secure from the courts some announcement as to the legality of the decision of the Commission.

Mr. MANN. Just take that case. The railroad companies or the stock-yards companies, I do not know which it is, had always charged $2 a car for terminal shipping freight. Now, you wished to eliminate that charge. The Interstate Commerce Commission decided in your favor. The courts, as far as they have gotten, have decided against you?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. MANN. And yet you think before the court had a chance to decide it that the change ought to have been made, and the railroad companies should have been deprived of that money, although the courts afterwards decided, and the Supreme Court of the United States may decide, that they were entitled to it? Do you not think that is a rather hasty action, taking a man's property, if he is entitled to it, before he has a chance to have a decision by the court?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I think this fifty days would have given any court ample time to have decided that case.

Mr. MANN. Well, of course, on that point the board had the same opportunity to decide within fifty days-and, by the way, there is no fifty-day provision in this bill-it had it before just as it would if this bill became a law.

Mr. TOMLINSON. They have to say within fifty days whether the order shall go in effect.

Mr. MANN. Is there a thirty-day provision in the bill?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Twenty days and thirty days.

Mr. MANN. And if the court says plainly that there is an error of law, or plainly that there is a misunderstanding or an error of fact, then the court shall give a stop order; but that must be a plain opinion on the court's part.

That is not an illustration of your complaint against the present system of the railroads. What is the general complaint of the stock-yards people or the live-stock people now as to their treatment by the railroads?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, I might cite that the present complaint is that the rates on live stock from Western points is relatively too high compared with the rates on the products. That is one incident.

Mr. MANN. You mean compared with the rates on meat products? Mr. TOMLINSON. From the West; yes, sir.

Mr. MANN. Now, the railroad companies have given a good deal of attention to that subject, I suppose. They are endeavoring to make money and to foster business along their lines?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. MANN. Do you think that the Interstate Commerce Commission, after a short hearing on the complaint, ought to be permitted to decide that question, on the theory that they know more about it than all the railroad officials combined through all the years have learned?

Mr. TOMLINSON. That is upon the assumption that the rates are made by the railroads upon careful consideration, which is not a correct premise to start upon.

Mr. MANN. I expect that is true.

Mr. TOMLINSON. I think any disinterested party, the Interstate

Commerce Commission, or the court, or this committee, is much more competent to make these railroad rates, after a thorough investigation, than are the railroads when they are influenced by competition and by selfish motives of one kind or another.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not know that we could do that if all the gentlemen who come before us are as chary about giving us information as those have been who have come before us so far.

Mr. TOMLINSON. I trust that you will not apply that to me. The CHAIRMAN. We have had no specific information since this investigation began. A great many generalities are indulged in, but when we ask for specific instances we do not get them.

Mr. TOMLINSON. I will go on with a few other instances.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, we want to know the actual operation of this law and the conduct of the people under it. Now, if you will give us that information, any of you gentlemen, we will be very glad. Do not be at all alarmed about taking up our time.

Mr. TOMLINSON. The Cattle Raisers' Association of Texas about two years ago, after the rates from Texas on live stock had been advanced about 5 cents a hundred, arranged for a conference with all the railroads leading from Texas with a view of showing that the advance was unreasonable and unwarranted and unjust and having it withdrawn. They met with all the railroads in St. Louis, and from what the railroads said at and shortly after this conference they led the representatives of the Cattle Raisers' Association to believe that there was great merit in their complaint and that the rate would undoubtedly be put back to the old basis. About a month afterwards the Cattle Raisers' Association was informed, through the secretary of the Southwestern Traffic Association, that after due consideration they did not think the rates were unfair and they would not make any change. The CHAIRMAN. What was the old rate?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Forty-four and three-fourths cents. Now, I just mention that as one incident. The rate from Fort Worth to Chicago was 444 cents, and it was advanced to 493 cents. Of course, all rates differ down in that country, but that rate covers as a sort of a blanket rate all of the northwestern part of Texas.

Just at the time that the railroads announced that they would not grant any reduction every large cattleman in Texas had a cut rate, in no instance more than, and in many instances less than, the advance that had been made. In other words, they cut the rate from $10 to $15 a car right after an advance.

The only people who did not get that rate

The CHAIRMAN. That was a secret cut?

Mr. TOMLINSON. A secret cut. The only people who did not get that rate were the small shippers.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything in this bill that will correct that? Mr. TOMLINSON. I think it would go a long ways toward doing it. Mr. MANN. Fixing the rate would not do it?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir; if the railroads are able to pay to these large shippers such an immense amount of rebates, I believe they are able to haul the small shippers' freight on that basis. If the Commission would so order the rates to be fixed, I believe the shipper would have protection.

Mr. MANN. Your theory is that every time the railroads cut a rate

the Interstate Commerce Commission ought to reduce the scheduled rate to the cut rate?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I think there would be no more cut rates, and I think the position is absolutely sound, for precisely the same reason that Mr. Lyon stated. If you fined the railroads there would not be any more cut rates. If the Commission had the power, when the railroads put in these secret cut rates, to say what the rate should be on any other classes of traffic that were discriminated against and subjected to an undue prejudice

The CHAIRMAN. You think this cutting of rates has been going on probably ever since the enactment of the law?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No doubt, and long before.

The CHAIRMAN. But the discovery of them was in the proceedings in Chicago quite recently, was it not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, it has been current knowledge with, I think, everybody who has been at all in touch with the rate situation, for a long time. It has only been given current publicity in this last investigation-

The CHAIRMAN. People have had a sort of inchoate belief that this was going on?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And has there been any public knowledge of it that could be used in courts as evidence?

Mr. TOMLINSON. There have been a number of times when the public tariffs have been reduced down to a basis considerably less than the one previously in effect, and then there has been a reinstatement shortly afterwards.

The CHAIRMAN. What would that prove?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It would prove that the railroads got into a fight among themselves, and

The CHAIRMAN. What would it prove on this question of cut rates or secret rates being given to individuals?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It would prove conclusively to my mind that there had been cut rates, and that this was the result of it, that this published low rate was the result of it.

Mr. COOMBS. You think the producers of wheat, the wheat raisers, will agree with you in the position that you take in reference to that question?

Mr. TOMLINSON. The wheat men?

Mr. COOMBS. The wheat men; the producer; the farmer himself? Mr. TOMLINSON. I do not believe I quite catch your question.

Mr. COOMBS. In your position about cut rates, do you think the producer, the wheat raiser, is in accord with your views?

Mr. TOMLINSON. The live-stock man is. I will not speak for the wheat man.

Mr. COOMBS. Now, of course, the reason I ask is that I like to get the views of everybody and of every interest. The wheat-raising interest is a considerable interest in this country.

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. COOMBS. And they need the advantages that they naturally get, as a rule.

Mr. SHACKLEFORD. Would the same advantages be beneficial to any other industry?

Mr. COOMBS. I am speaking now of the wheat industry; do you think you can speak for them?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I would not assume to speak for them as long as they have other and abler representatives. I speak simply for the live-stock people.

The CHAIRMAN. The time for adjournment has arrived, and if you will resume to-morrow at half past 10, we will be glad to have you do so.

Mr. TOMLINSON. I will be very pleased to.

Thereupon, at 11.45 a. m., the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Tuesday, April 15, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.

TUESDAY, April 15, 1902.

The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., Hon. William P. Hepburn in the chair.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will be in order. Mr. Tomlinson will you proceed?

STATEMENT OF MR. T. W. TOMLINSON—Continued.

Mr. TOMLINSON. At the conclusion of my remarks yesterday, I was talking about violations of the act, and at the same time it seems eminently proper that I should file with this committee for information, but not to appear as a matter of record, the testimony in the matter of the transportation of dressed meats and packing-house products taken at a hearing of the Interstate Commerce Commission in Chicago in March, 1901.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me say, Mr. Tomlinson, that that is not satisfactory to the committee. That is accessible to us as it is to you. You come here and make charges against the operations of the law. Now, we want to know from you what you know.

Mr. TOMLINSON. My purpose in filing this was simply to show violations of the act, and in support of what I have already stated.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. That, of course, we could obtain without troubling you for it.

Mr. TOMLINSON. I thought that I was perhaps serving the convenience of the committee.

The CHAIRMAN. We are grateful for that, of course, so far as it goes. Now, if you have any knowledge, we would like to know it; or, if you have not any knowledge, of course, you can say so.

Mr. TOMLINSON. I have knowledge to this extent. The rates on fresh meats and packing-house products are continually cut from the West through to the seaboard.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you know that?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Because I have heard the admissions of the railroads before the Interstate Commerce Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. Which railroads?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Every one of them.

The CHAIRMAN. Who was speaking for them?

Mr. TOMLINSON. The traffic managers.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you give us their names?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Paul Morton of the Santa Fe, Mr. J. M. Johnson

of the Rock Island, Mr. T. T. Storer of the Great Western, Mr. Holland, I think, of the St. Paul, Mr. Thomas Miller of the C. B. and Q., Mr. Drias Miller, who is in charge of the traffic of the reorganized Burlington system, and several others.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, commencing with Mr. Paul Morton, what admissions did you hear him make?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I heard him say that the Santa Fe was unable to get what they considered was their fair share of the fresh meat and packing-house products out of St. Joe and Kansas City, and on that account they were compelled to make a secret contract with one large shipper at 5 cents less than what was then the published tariff. The CHAIRMAN. Who was that shipper?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Schwarzchild and Sulzburger.
The CHAIRMAN. When was that contract made?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Some time in June of last year.
The CHAIRMAN. How long did it endure?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Until June 1, 1902.

The CHAIRMAN. Under that contract what sums were paid to the other party?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I can not tell the exact sums.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you approximate it?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe Mr. Morton said in effect that it mounted into the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The CHAIRMAN. Who was the next gentleman that you named? Mr. TOMLINSON. I think the Rock Island shipper, Mr. J. M. Johnson. The CHAIRMAN. What did you hear Mr. Johnson admit in this direction?

Mr. TOMLINSON. He admitted that it was necessary to meet the Santa Fe secret rate, which they did by rebates, or by vouchers, whichever way you care to put it.

The CHAIRMAN. To whom was that rebate given, did you hear him say?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It was generally given to the various traffic people representing the packing concerns.

The CHAIRMAN. All of them alike?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he state what those rebates amounted to in their aggregate which had been paid?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe he did not state exactly, but left the impression on my mind, at least, that it amounted to a vast sum of money, as did all the other gentlemen who appeared before that Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. They all made substantially the same confession? Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. With regard to the operation of their roads?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And the violation of this statute?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir. My purpose, Mr. Chairman, in referring to that is this, the existence of these low-product rates to the river markets, as against what we consider high rates on live stock from intermediate points in Iowa and Missouri, works seriously to the detriment and the prejudice of the live-stock men located, for example, in Iowa. It puts the live stock which may be raised upon ground less valuable than is the territory east of the Missouri River in direct