Day a That is a sort of gamble, is it not, a deferred benefit? you live and lose it if you die. If you lose, the rest in the benefit of your death. OWN. Yes. - WOLCOTT. I beg your pardon for interrupting you. OWN. I believe that any plan which contemplated onl From a given age for the remainder of life would be ry to the employees for the same reasons that the m was unsatisfactory-that those who resigned or e-and it would be unsatisfactory to the Government would make the removal of inefficient employees much han it is at the present time. I do not believe that nt should be placed in the way of people leaving the service. I think that if you tie the people to the servic scheme you are likely to depress the salaries. I t of the indexes that govern Congress in fixing the pay is f resignations each year. HAIRMAN. How many of them are there? zowN. How many employees? HAIRMAN. How many resignations? ROWN. I can not answer that directly, Mr. Chairman d that last year Senator Pomerene introduced a resolu nate directing the Bureau of Efficiency, of which I am collect statistics from the departments to determine arious pension plans that were under consideration at cooperation with the Census Office we prepared a for airy and sent it to various departments. The cards d returned to us, and the Census Office has been ed he editing is about finished. As soon as it is finished ch cards and make eleborate tables to give you gentle formation possible with regard to the number of perso ce, what they are doing, salaries, how many are eligibl nt, and what the rate of separation is in the various me of the services have very high rates of separation, ave very low rates. That depends upon the attractiv ; the cost of the Government taking the g the burden on any arbitrary proportion here the employee bears it, as I would like ompare them. ke to add that the work of the Bureau of pidly in the last year, and so many addiposed upon the bureau by Congress, that I te as much time to the work of calculating like to; but finally, several months ago, I e Commission to hold an examination for to make these calculations. We were forrvices of Mr. James B. Maddrill, of the of Hartford, an accomplished mathematington on the 25th of this month to devote until it is finished. uld like to have him come before us when we can do it. u is at the disposal of the committee at to do the utmost to answer any questions. ell, sir; I thank you. speaker bout time that we are obliged to go to the een in session about an hour. irman will permit me I will say that there ome all the way from Chicago to attend d like to be heard. ly; we will hear her now, then. RANK R. HALLAS, PRESIDENT OF THE OF THE CHICAGO POST-OFFICE CLERKS' y glad of this opportunity to speak for the am president of the women's auxiliary. women's point of view, the wife of the post ke his salary cover all the expenses of the there are tim the Governm ernment doe to be workin ernment, not sions should ing now for are very mu Mr. ALCOR law clerk of The CHAI STATEME Mr. NEAGL be at the ser stand that I resentation my associate The Navy years ago, employees. When the ne the people t for that rea ployees in t ments. The the retiring out stretchi employees in The CHAI Mr. NEAG The CHAI e times when you are talking as the wife of an emplo ernment when you have to step back and say, "No; the does not do that for my husband; you are more fort orking for a corporation." So for your pride in your not only for your personal feeling in the thing, these ould be provided. On this question of pensions I am for the auxiliary; the women employees of the Post much in favor of some system to provide for pensions LCORN. There is one other speaker, Mr. Chairman, Mr. N k of the Navy Department. CHAIRMAN. All right; you may proceed, Mr. Neagle. EMENT OF MR. PICKENS NEAGLE, LAW CLERK OF 1 NAVY DEPARTMENT. EAGLE. Secretary Daniels, in authorizing me to come u e service of the committee, wanted the committee to at I brought with me no recommendation from him, n ion of his views; so anything I say is personal from m -ciates. Navy Department, when I went into the service, abo go, had in it a very large proportion of superann es. They were probably largely veterans of the Civil he new Navy began to grow-the building of the new N ple taken in were young men and a few young womer treason there are perhaps not so many superannuate in the department to-day as there are in some other d There are probably 6 to 8 per cent of people that are b ring age in the Navy Department now, but I think it is etching it at all to say that a very large proportion ees in the department to-day are beyond 50 and withinCHAIRMAN. How many are beyond 70? NEAGLE. There are probably 17, somewhat less than 20. CHAIRMAN. How many in the entire department? o human life, increasing, of course, the cting only Europe thus far. Now, that country, too, and after the war the numill be very much larger than to-day, and Government in the position of being ment heads-of being obliged to discard I be a much more serious matter at that reason it seems that now is the time for r in hand and settle it. If the only way ension scheme of some sort, as to whether be based on a contributory or a flat-rate , there are many things to be considered wn personal view is that it should be to butory, if not wholly so that is, leaving of it. After that is done, the questions be adjusted more satisfactorily. It seems e, sound way is to arrange or establish a which retirement must take place. As to ch thing as political influence or personal ould say that those considerations should he organizing of a scheme; it is a wise 1. so etty hard to turn back all the conditions ime when you say there must not be those reference to your question a while ago as any partisanship in the board appointed I should say that the board should be nonexpression, double-partisan, and it should of the board to take notice of a man's hat a man's politics are; it should be a ve the more dignity, the more formality ection of the board would be an advantage - way. I do not think it ought to be pos The ques the Senator there is in The CHA devil aroun Mr. NEA contributor a salary wh Governmen it is thus his pay, n to his sala a saving to with the re tated at $2 pacitated at incapacity incapacity the incapacity of the incapacitated clerks, and while i mes a man might get by with a certain amount of inca ime it is more noticeable. CHAIRMAN. You say you have 1,000 now. How many are incapacitated to do service? NEAGLE. Över 30 are above 60 and 17 to 20 are above e proportion is relatively small at this time. CHAIRMAN. Yes. NEAGLE. If a man is working along ordinarily as well was before the war; before the war the shortcoming over easily enough one way or another, and his fellow him with his work, but to-day that is not possible, b an is going at full steam and has no time to help anybo work. So the condition, if it exists, is noticeable and out just now in the department and throughout the serv ension system is the most costly pension system. question as to whether a pension system is in vogue no nator asked one of the speakers about, it appears to m s in effect a pension system now-that it may be so reg CHAIRMAN. It is what we used to say as boys, "Beati round the bush." NEAGLE. Well, some pension system is most needed, whe Outory system or otherwise. If a man is continued on dr ry when he is not doing the work, that is a direct loss nment, the condition is a direct loss to the Government, hus pensioning its employees at full pay. You may y, make his earning power apparently lower, more salary, and fit his work to the salary, and this would ng to the Government in part, but his incapacity goes he reduction, say, from $2,000 to $1,800. If he is ind at $2,000 and relieved of that by reduction, he is stil ted at $1,800, compared with his associates at $1,800, so th city is not cured by reduction. The only way to get rid acity is to get the man out of the service, and in his place |