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duce now Mr. Warwick, Comptroller of 11, proceed, Mr. Warwick.


know, Mr. Chairman, that I can add anyAfter a service of about 15 years out of me in the classified service in the Governonclusion that the interest of the Govern› employees require some system of elimiI have a view of that, possibly, that is think there ought to be an age limit fixed ge limit?

ay for the departmental service 70 years. be a lower age. But I would not leave, if discretion as to retaining a man after he

not agree with Dr. Osler, then, when he oformed at 60?

ve 2 in my office. So far as the employees y 30 in the clerical grades, and 5 of the 30 my own office. One of the men is a bookother bookkeepers and doing just as much o have one man who is 80 years of age. le to do his work?

able to do as much as formerly. He is

u demoted him because of that?

ot been reduced. He has been in the serv

at I would favor an arbitrary age is that ponsible position in the service, such as a

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as one case 11

hat I know about of an employee of that railroad r e of 70, who had worked for the road 59 years. He ha 11 years of age.

› CHAIRMAN. Do they have a graduated scale of retire WARWICK. My recollection is that it is a percentage of service.

› CHAIRMAN. According to salaries?


WARWICK. Yes; percentage of salary depends on


WARWICK. This man would receive about 60 per cent k it runs along about 1 per cent for each year of servi e CHAIRMAN. Yes.

. WARWICK. NOW, some one has referred to the demon office or of a division in the service by the presence of t nable to work or unable to do the full amount of wor That is unquestionably true. Keeping up the sta or required amount of work is very difficult where t n such condition that you must always make allowand find something for the person to do who formerl good worker. The fixed age of retirement and whethe alf of their current pay, with a maximum of $600 or 9 er which, of course, will be decided by Congress; but g is to provide some system, looking at it simply from ent's point of view and those prejudiced probably in f m by which the employee eventually would pay all of ement, yet while I say I was prejudiced in favor of tha just about equally in favor of any system that Congress effect that will make for the good of the employees an ey of the service. I do not consider that the details as to f the cost should be paid by the Government, or one-h importance. I know to the employee on a small sala tion running up to 3 or 4 or 5 per cent of his salary is er; but the benefit to him, especially if he is old, if he is ement age, the benefits would be so large as to justif

will be of information and value to the his subject. At the present time superanCensus is not a serious question, because e only 27 out of 560 over 65 years of age. However, we have 51 employees over 60 make a percentage of 9, and in the next ion may become quite a serious matter, for the present time in the age group between ployees.

5 percentage is that of the total?

-three per cent between 50 and 60. There e force over 50 years of age. Of course, rcentage of superannuation 15 years hence, yees would drop out.

you furnish the figures as to what it would w or 25 years from now? What would be ernment of a plan, say, of retiring them eaching an age of

ate at what age?

7 years. Just use that as an illustration.

ot think the bureau has ever worked that already been worked out by Mr. Herbert

x probably he has, and we can get these

ked Mr. Wilmeth a while ago whether he mployees should be retired under the same ployees 246 are females.

ould be no good reason for differentiating es in any form of retirement legislation. tired at the same age and under the same employees give their best service and the o the Government, and in retirement they consideration. I may state, too, that I am


Mr. B retireme The C Brown, t Mr. B last year The C Mr. B erene was

of $600. Senato Mr. BR

say that cost the Then it w until it h when all


The C Mr. B until it 1 would be The C Mr. B take care deduction means, o at once v and that have to




BROWN. So much has been said in regard to the necess nent plan that I hardly think I need add anything. O CHAIRMAN. We would like to have the figures from n, to see where we are going to get by on this proposit BROWN. I made some tentative figures for Senator H ear showing the approximate cost of a plan he was ad CHAIRMAN. Were they put in the record?

BROWN. At that time, yes, sir. The plan that Senat was considering contemplated giving half pay with a m 00.

ator WOLCOTT. Half pay basing on the salary of the la BROWN. Half pay on the average for the last 10 years. at these calculations embraced about 250,000 employe the first year would amount to a little more than $3 it would gradually run up for quite a number of years, it had gone a little above $6,000,000, and then run off to all of the employees now in the service had been retire

e CHAIRMAN. It would run off to what?

. BROWN. The annual cost would decrease after 25 or it had ceased entirely. After that time all of the e d be providing pensions for themselves.

e CHAIRMAN. His was a half-and-half plan or an enti . BROWN. His plan contemplated that the Governme care of all pensions that could not be provided by a n action of 8 per cent from the salaries of the employee ns, of course, that the employees who are eligible for re ace would have to be pensioned straight out by the Gov that all persons retired for a number of years thereaft to be aided by the Government. I will state that in

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r was necessary to provide for half pay That would mean that the employees just Day something between 2 and 3 per cent, s would pay larger percentages.

percentage of 8 or 2 or 3, or whatever it the length of service yet to be rendered? dered; that is correct.

has 20 years yet to serve before reaching pay 5 per cent?

ke that.

night be a different percentage on account I from time to time?

le is that you have to make whatever duce, with interest, a sum of money that nuity at the time of retirement.

wn, have you the facts of the English etirement?

report on the English system some years -so long ago that I can not tell you the my memory. But they had had for half n. Up to about 1909, was it not, Dr.

dred and nine.

r, 1909, the pension was one-sixtieth of service. The pension was available at a ving the service prior to that age from ing. The employees complained bitterly contended through their organizations pay consisting of two items their imh to month and their deferred pay in 1 good many cases were presented where heir pension age or soon after the age of ents in destitute circumstances through red pay. So at the instance of the emlified, as I remember it, and now instead

scheme. That
get it if you

group get the Mr. BROWN Senator Wo Mr. BROWN annuity from satisfactory t lish system w Would lose


cause it would difficult than impediment sl ernment servi a pension self that one of th number of res The CHAIR Mr. BROWN The CHAIR Mr. BROWN might add th in the Senate head, to coll cost of variou time. In coo card inquiry filled and re them. The e will punch c all the inforn the service, I retirement, a ices. Some others have

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