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their technical investigations on special and research laboratories and technically trained men. Now, our industry should as a whole establish in some form what all large companies have in their own organizations. The several thousand smaller companies are not in a position to get at the depth of the prospect they have before them. Aside from all this, there are the advantages already mentioned, that by having the Association do the work as a National body all the industry will be benefited by greater uniformity in methods, by the cheapening of appliances and the standardization of all apparatus.

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MR. C. W. BAKITEIT, Schenectady, NY : It occurs to me that there is one process mentioned in the report which offers an excellent opportunity for the application of electric current. namely, electric sherardizing We are using the process of tensively in our manufacturing at Schenectady with execellent results, and I believe it is a rust proof process which has pos sibilities of extensive application It is an app it on which is surely not confined to the automobile indu try since there are many varieties of metal goods manufactured and not used in automobiles which must be made rust proof in one way or another

MR. TILIMAN: I would like to ask Dr. Hirshíold or e ques tion in reference to the load of which he speaks in t'e four comi panies. Does he know the exact percentage of that lead used in connection with the manufacture of ant mola'est What per centage is used for other industrial purposes that we have not got in our territory, to take the place of this very valodie and good load of which he speaks

DR HR-HEID As nearly as I can real the fi, ures, I should say that probably not over 30 percent of the lid state ! is directly due to the manufacture of autos, obiles

MR. KNOWLTON: I am frank to say that I k. so little about the industrial heating business that all I can do is to ak questions For instance, take the enamel ng projesition as a part of the automobile industry. I have understood that the reas fi electricity has displaced gas to some extent is the fat that gas ovens were largely direct heated ovens, that is, the products of combustion are turned loose in the ovens, with the revolt that the out; ut is of interior quity as co-pared with that from electrically heated ovens I understand that certain gas oven (SEE REPORT, PAGE 398

manufacturers have come to feel that there is no particular reason why gas should be burned within the oven; that it might very much better be applied as an indirect process, conducting the heat only to the oven. The statement is made that the quality resulting from this change in method is equal in every respect to the electrical product, hence I wish to inquire if this statement is true, and if so, what chance the electrical industry will have of disposing of electrical energy for enamelling purposes in competition with 600 B.t.u. gas at 40 cents per 1000 cu-ft.

DR. HIRSHFELD (closure): It is true that when the first ovens were converted, direct gas firing was practically the only method used. It is also true that since the conversion of the first ovens, indirect fired gas ovens have been developed. It is possibly too early to attempt to generalize on the showing of the comparatively small number of electric installations and the comparatively small number of indirect fired gas ovens which have been installed. I believe the statement that you can get equally good work from both ovens is not true under all circumstances. I believe, further, that when those of us who are advocating gas and those of us who are advocating electricity have found ourselves, so to speak, we will discover that there are certain kinds of products, certain kinds of work and certain types of plants which fall naturally under one method and certain which fall as naturally under the other. Now, I, personally, have my own idea as to where the division point will eventually fall, but I admit frankly that at the present time I am generalizing on evidence that I consider insufficient to warrant me in putting my idea on record before a body of this sort. I think that is about as close an answer as I can give you at the present time.

REPORT OF THE LIGHTING SALES BUREAU

JOHN & LEARNED, CHAIRMAN

DISCUSSION

CHAIRMAN BECKER: The organization of this Bureau, as you doubtless realize, is for the purpose of keeping alive in the mands of the men bers of the Commercial Section this very important sub ect of lighting I do not know of any time in my experience as a central station man when this subiect was more pertinent than today The application of the numerous lighting puts intelligently is a necessary function of our salesmen er gaged in the sale of electric hFt and the Commercial Section has therefore placed this matter in the hands of a competent committee

(SEE REPORT PAGE 38

REPORT OF SUB-COMMITTEE ON COMMERCIAL ASPECTS OF HIGHWAY AND

MUNICIPAL LIGHTING

T F KELLY, CHAIRMAN

DISCUSSION

MR. F. C. PIATT, San Francisco, Cal.: There are two phases of the subject to which I would like to call further attention. One is the question as to the best way of interesting the authorities in improving street lighting systems.

I think all of us will admit the desirability of supplying the various communities with the very best system of street lighting possible, although of course it is necessary to be conservative and not rush prematurely into each new untried system as it is first developed. However, when certain changes are desirable the question of the best way of convincing the municipal or other authorities of this presents itself. I have found by experience that the most effective way to demonstrate to those having to do with street lighting that a change in the spacing or type of unit is desirable, is to install the new proposed system along a street where the present system is in use, arranging the wiring so that by merely throwing a switch an instantaneous change from the old to the new system can be made and repeated instantaneously, as often as desired. By this means the two systems are compared under absolutely identical conditions with regard to surroundings, etc., and the demonstration has also a certain psychological merit in that it gives one such a sense of pleasure to be able instantaneously to change from the ineffective system to a really adequate one that it stimulates the desire to make this change in other places, in fact all over the municipality.

I have found this type of installation invariably convincing to the authorities. In one case they were so delighted with the showing made by new units as compared with the old that they immediately ordered the entire city changed over, more than doubling our street lighting revenue.

(SEE REPORT, PAGE 388)

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