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Second The general divisions of the work of the Bureau shall be as follows:

Electrochemical Division

General Power (including railways supply)

Electric Heating

Isolated Plants

Third The officers of the Industrial Sales Bureau shall consist of a chairman, vice chairman and secretary, to be appanted by the Executive Committee of the Commercial Section of the National Electric Light Association

Each of the four general divisions mentioned shall have a chairman to be appointed by the chairman of the Industrial Sales Bureau, and a vice chairman and secretary to be appointed by their respective chairmen

The Executive Committee of the Industrial Sales Bureau shall consist of the chairman, vice-chairman and secretary tother with the others of the four general divisions mentioned. also of members at large appointed from the general membership of the Industrial Sales Bureau not to exceed four men, who shal' be selected by the chairman of the Industrial Sales Bureau

These matters have already been recommended to the Chair man of the Commercial Section of the National Electric Light Association, and if they meet with the approval of the Com mercial Section it is believed that this consolidation and the consequence enlargement of the scope of the Power Sales Bureau will avoid duplication of work and increase the results of its

e"orts

CENTRAL STATION SERVICE IN THE MANU

FACTURE OF ARTIFICIAL ICE

BY CJ CARLSEN

DISCUSSION

MR. C. J. CARLSEN (continuing): We have a number of our Chicago icemen, consulting engineers and others present, and I want to take this opportunity of thanking them personally for their great assistance in the last four years or more in gathering and compiling these data that we have tried to get into form for the use of us all.

MR. H. H. HOLDING, Newark, N. J.: I think Mr. Carlsen has given us here a splendid contribution to the rather meager data we have had heretofore on ice manufacture from the central station point of view, and it would seem to me that the advantages from central station operation can be summed up in two points, service, as to operating conditions, and the use of investment. I put them in that order because it would seem that the service which the central station in Chicago is giving to the manufacturers of ice is greater even than a consideration of the capital which they are investing, but if we take the investment side, Mr. Carlsen has been extremely conservative. He has said he took figures which were already published, but it would seem that if we made other figures we would get a better showing from the central station point of view, and I wish to call your attention to a rough calculation I made on page 303 where a comparison is made of the three methods of operation and a 5 percent depreciation on the cost of mechanical equipment is taken. Now, we have no reason to believe that an investor will risk his money in an ice plant any sooner than he would in other industries, and it seems to me that 10 percent would be absolutely fair and be very easy to demonstrate to an investor, and if we make that change it will make something like five cents difference in the cost per ton as worked out and give us

(SEE PAPER, PAGE 289)

that much advantage The matter of earning 10 percent would be on a straight line basis, ten years' amortization, and it seems to me that no investor is going to risk an investi..ent greater than 10 years, or 20 years it it is 5 percent on a straight line method The connection of service with operation, as shown by Mr Carlsen, could it seems to me be applied well by the central stations to other industries, because it is extremely interesting The analysis of production costs which is being made at the present time is largely based upon unit costs, and anything that can be done to decrease the unit production cost in any industry is bound to appeal to the manufacturer

Mk JB ANDERSON, Chicago: When I first started in the raw water ice plant business here in Chicago I had a little 10 ton plant I went out to the electric plant on 55th Street and told tem 1 wanted to go into the ice business and asked what 1 could get energy for. They figured it figured it out at about 3 cents a kilowatt. I asked them how many kilowatts it would take to make a ton of ice and they didn't know I decided to try it out anyhow. We earned a rate of about 2; cents a kilowatt and found we could make ice under those conditions It was not very profitable but it was better than natural ice Now we make 340 tons per day and we have earned less than a cent rate per kw per ton in some of the plant and in part of it a l'tle bit more Of course the conditions must govern the operation We are just installing a new 100 ton capacity electrcally operated plant on the South Side

M RH TILLMAN, Baltimore. I think this paper brings out one thing very distinctly, which is that with electrically driven plants it is possible to keep definite records and know at al tries the amount of power consumed per unit of on; it He multy that central stations encounter from in on ; 'ete records and data on the operation of existing plants, is a Post serious draw-back Some years we tid that a plant operates very expensively, and it is a problem to check operations in order to find out the exact cost This paper will be of assistance to every centrai station and especially so where new ice plants

are soon to be installed

The temperature in Baltimore is such that the arth tal we business has no con petitor in the natural ice basmess This of

course, is different from what we find in cities farther north. Another condition which we have in Baltimore different from most cities, is that there are a large number of small refrigerating machines operating for both refrigeration and ice making. We have at the present time approximately 3000 horsepower driving ammonia compressors varying in sizes from 4 to 100 tons capacity.

MR. PAUL G. HOBART, Chicago: I enjoyed, as you all have, the abstract of Mr. Carlsen's paper. I know it will be very interesting in detail, and it certainly shows a great amount of care-taking work in following the subject up. As the gentleman who preceded me has said, I think it will be of great value to central station people throughout the country. I do not know that Mr. Carlsen has brought out the fact, which from the central station standpoint ought to be quite apparent, that the type of load the ice-plant furnishes is just the one the central station is looking for. While these plants already show a load factor of between 30 and 40 percent this can be greatly increased with proper storage arrangements, and this percentage comes at a time when the current is not used by other classes of users and when it can be sold at the lowest possible figure. Possibly an enlargement along that line might be appreciated.

MR. R. H. KNOWLTON, Philadelphia: Supplementing the remarks of Mr. Tillman, I think there is one point in connection with the purchase of energy from a central station that has not been emphasized sufficiently and it is this. With purchased power the operator or owner of a plant is much more likely to watch the costs closer than when the energy is produced in an isolated plant. In the first place, the central station ordinarily equips the installation with graphic and integral watthour meters, and any change in operating conditions or economies can be almost immediately detected. Moreover, since the temptation in the beginning was rather great to install a private plant and the owner, in many instances against his first impulse, has been induced to put in central station equipment, he naturally for a considerable period at least watches the operation very closely. Besides this the central station power salesman in order to make the installation a permanent one himself watches the costs, as Mr. Carlsen has indicated, and I think that the result is a

very much closer energy cost supervision than is had in any other way.

I was amused at Mr. Anderson's remarks in connection with the Chicago situation I think our friend Jones here is prone to come Fast and tell us that all the development work has been done with the Commonwealth Edison Company, which goes out and pries the lid off. Here is a Chicago man who tells us that he had to go around to the Commonwealth Edison Company and pry the lid off himself and the process has finally resulted in the reduction of energy cost from around 2', to 1 cent.

MR. R. C. LEONARD, Nashville, Tenn: There is one point that Mr. Carlsen may not bring out in his paper. In the South where I come from there is no such thing as natural ice, and it is very hard indeed to convince our people that the ice made from raw water is really sanitary, that it is free from germs Now, I do not know whether he has that trouble at all in this territory, but I would like to hear some little discussion along that line. There are no plant operators in our section of the country who are willing to go up agamst that feeling among the people. They would be afraid of not getting any patronage at all I never had but one prospective customer at all interested in the use of raw water we and he contemplated using it only in sing cars If there is any difference between the two kinds of ice. I would like to learn what it is

Mr. Charles G. OshorNE, Chicago: I will answer the question by saying that as far as we have gone in the study of the matter we have come to the conclusion that raw water ke or better, fresh-water ice, is sufficiently sanitary if it is made from the same water that is used for drinking purposes. I would not recommend the use of ice made from water not suff, iently pure to drink, but surely if water is pure enough to drink and you add nothing to it, and do nothing to it but simply freeze it it certainly is sufficiently pure to make we out of We have districts around here where the water is more or less contan mated, where a fresh water plant would perhaps be a menace but from a common sense stan-point if water is s iffient's pare to drink at your ordinary table, why not make ice of it? In the manufacture of ice there is nothing ad led, in any process of ter making there is nothing added which would be cortan mating

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