I gather that the President has requested $60,000 for its continued operation for the fiscal year to begin July 1. This seems to confirm people's feelings that once you ever get something going over here you can't get rid of it even if the people in charge of it beg to be relieved.

Have you put this in your budget request do you happen to know? Mr. LYNN. What does the budget show on that? When these articles first appeared I had read them in the morning paper I think about a month ago.

Mr. LONG. This came out just a week ago.

Mr. LYNN. It is the second wave of it as the hearings began on it on the Hill. It came up the first time 2 or 3 weeks ago and I asked Paul to look into it. What did we find?

Mr. O'NEILL. What we found, as I recall, is indeed the President's budget does have a request in it for continuation for fiscal 1976. And our general counsel has recently given us back an indication that under the existing law there is a requirement for the existence of this Board as an appellate process. I think our people are now looking at the feasibility of recommending to the Congress that that appellate process be dispensed with and that the regular Federal courts stand in the stead of the Board. But I don't think the final conclusion has been reached with the Interior Department as to this.

Mr. LONG. No law can require us to fund it.

Mr. Lynx. That is right.

Mr. LONG. Is that so!

Mr. LYNN. That is correct.

Mr. LONG. I don't believe any law could require you to make a budget request could it?

Mr. Lynn, I think no law can, but I think that if we don't make a budget request, we should also indicate to the Congress how the appeal process would work if and when they ever got an appeal. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have done this earlier, but I think if we do come up and say "no funding," we owe it to the Congress to say what will happen to that outside chance of appeal if there is nobody there anymore in this job.

Maybe it is just there can never be an appeal as a result of what we have learned over the last 2 years when you mentioned those thousands of cases. But I suppose if there is still the possibility of appeal we had better suggest to you what we would have in mind as to how to handle it if we are saying don't fund it at all. I think Paul is saying we are in the course of trying to work that out and making our recommendation to you.

Mr. LONG. You know Abraham Lincoln was once inspecting the defenses of Washington and noticed some of the guns pointing north and it bothered him. He wanted to know why. They said, “We don't expect the enemy to attack from the north but just in case they do." He said, "That explains to me the mystery of why they put nipples on men because they don't expect men to have babies and nurse them. but just in case they do."

This is a volunteer board where people serve without salaries. So all you would be getting rid of would be the paid executive secretary who himself says he thinks you ought to get rid of him. Why couldn't you?

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I bring this up not because I am terribly concerned with this but the whole process in which we operate. This is the process. What do we have to do to get rid of a useless agency?

Mr. LYNN. I can say to you, Mr. Long, in the course of the last 2 months, I have been going through various agencies and functions to see one that clearly something can be done about without extensive evaluation.

Mr. LONG. Can you ever find anything as clear cut as this?

Mr. LYNN. I am a little sorry this story wasn't delayed about a month or so, so I could see whether or not the process I put in force would have caught it. If it is symptomatic, and that worries me, how many more are around that we are not catching and should catch?

I do think we have a job in that regard, every department does, the Committees up here, appropriations and so on, as well as the authorizing committees, and I think we have a heavy responsibility.

ELIMINATION OF AGENCIES THAT HAVE OUTLIVED THEIR USEFULNESS

Mr. LONG. Do you have any process or research group or somebody else who could go into this whole matter of how many agencies in this Government have outlived their usefulness and could be eliminated? Mr. LYNN. We are trying to do that now, Mr. Long. There is another aspect of that that Congress has imposed a discipline on us, which I think is a good one, although I think it has taken more personhours than we would have anticipated on the advisory committee activities where we do have the new act where we must every year ve a justification for any advisory committees that exist.

So in that particular area, we really have a responsibility under a new statute. But I think we must do similar things with respect to these types of commissions.

Mr. LONG. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION SERVICE

Mr. STEED. I have one short question. You know the Immigration and Naturalization Service does not have authority to seize vehicles or vessels being used to smuggle aliens whereas the Customs Service as the right to seize vehicles being used for illegal smuggling of ontraband. We have been thinking about some legislation to give INS at authority. Would you prepare a reaction on your part to that sort f idea as to whether we are on sound ground?

Mr. LYNN. Of course we will, sir, or will arrange to have it proded to you by the appropriate department. One or the other.

SUGGESTIONS FOR LEGISLATIVE AGREEMENT

Mr. STEED. In the line with that sort of thing there is a service that I think you could perform. We have a continuing problem regarding points of order on appropriations. You have some expertise on that, rd you could make suggestions from time to time for legislation to ve these problems. We have one currently going on. There might be ther areas that would save both of us some trouble if we get legislation on it. On those areas where there may be some question as to

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whether existing legislation was sufficient we could resist it if you could provide the authority. It would help us and help the other subcommittees by having material to help defend the budget against points of order. Those are two areas you could give some thought to when you get time.

Mr. LYNN. They are very much worthwhile areas to give some thought to because there is no need to tie up the Congress in this kind of a business.

Mr. STEED. Mr. Director, if you can make it to the White House for your appointment in 60 seconds you won't be late.

Mr. Lyxx. I have a hunch I work for a man, Mr. Chairman, who if I am going to have any excuse for being late at all. testimony in Congress will be fully understood. I have never known him to become angry about being late for a meeting if the reason is you have been doing something in the Congress.

Mr. STEED. We are very sorry we put you in a tight squeeze here. You have given us all of your time yesterday and today and have been quite generous about it and we appreciate it. You have been most helpful and made a very fine presentation. We are very pleased with the way things have gone and the way you have presented your material to us, and I think it is going to help us all.

Mr. LYNN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that.

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