therefore, not to yield to any further re- ment at the earliest period to take a course ductions, which could not be made with- which he had every confidence they would out the risk of a considerable deficiency. take, and consider these duties which arThe two duties on butter and cheese pro- fected most important interests in the duced last year a sum of 347,0001., which country. he could not consent to give up, neither Mr. Hume thought, it could be shown could he consent to state now what course that the Revenue would receive the same he would pursue for the future. It was amount of money, and the duty be reduced the duty of a financial Minister not to at the same time. Every reduction of express a premature opinion, which ex- duty on other articles had increased the pression might be made use of and oper. Revenue; and if these duties were reduced ate injuriously. It would be fatal to those one-half, the same sum might be received, who were engaged in business if a course and a great benefit conferred. of future policy were promulgated at the Mr. P. Howard said, that in Warwickend of a Session which would derange the shire, Cheshire, and some other counties, trade of the country, whilst there might where a large quantity of cheese was be circumstances in the country after- made, the farmer would suffer materially wards which would prevent the promised if that branch of agricultural produce were repeal. On the propriety, however, of much interfered with. After the conces. these, as of all other duties, he would re- sion which the Government had made serve his opinion till that period of the to the commercial interest at the com. year when the finances were to be con- mencement of the session, he thought it sidered; and when he knew the circum- was hardly fair to make any fresh demand. stances of the country at the time, he The agriculturists ought not to be depriv. would take such a course as would best ed of all protection. promote the general interests of the coun- Mr. Newdegate would only make a try. single observation. It was to express a Mr. M. Gibson admitted that the right hope that though the agricultural Memhon, Gentleman ought not to be expected bers might be silent on the present occato announce on the part of the Govern- sion, the House would not suppose them ment what reduction of duties they would to be indifferent to the subject under conpropose, and what would be their fiscal sideration. policy for the future. He was glad, how. Mr. Cobden feared if some of his hon. ever, to find the right hon. Gentleman Friends near him supported a scale of justifying these duties only on fiscal duties for such articles, it would be deces. grounds, and declare that the only benefit sary for him to dissolve partnership with the country received from these duties was them. It would, he was convinced, be 347,0001. It had been proved that the found that any duty on articles of food present duties cause a considerable reduc- would fall doubly as heavy on the laboura iion of human food, and that if there were ing man as on the rich man, and thus the no importation the agricultural labourers Government would be in a dilemma, in would not be able to procure cheese or which they should abolish the duties altobutter. Knowing something of the agri-gether. Though the hon. Members for cultural labourers of Suffolk, he could say Derbyshire, and some other counties, they consumed a great deal of the inferior might find it to be for the interest of their kinds of foreign cheese. He knew that constituents 10 support the duties on the cheese of Suffolk was hardly eatable, butter and cheese, he could not see why and, as it was said, the dogs barked at it, the Members for Norfolk and Suffolk, for and he thought a duty of 100 per cent. instance, should adopt the same course. was too high to be maintained, if they put if the right hon. Baronet would take the ou any duty at all. The cheese growers of trouble of making inquiries on the subthis country could not supply one-half the ject, he would find that there were six or wants of the country. The duty on corn eight counties taxing the rest of the counhere had a tendency to increase the arable try, as well as all Ireland and Scotland, and to destroy the pasture land, whilst in order that they might receive a high they maintained this high duty on cheese price for their cheese. In the same matand butter. The end of the war was of ner, if the right hon. Baronet took up all times the most strange for increasing other articles, such as oats, beans, hops, taxation, and he called upon the Govern- and barley, which were produced in par Mr. Tatton Egerton said, the hon. Member who had just sat down had talked of the agriculturists picking one another's pockets, but he had said nothing about the great manufacturers of Lancashire or Yorkshire adopting the same course in picking the pockets of all England. He did not, however, reproach the manufacturers for making large fortunes; but he would ask, why were not the landed proprietors to have also a return for their capital? If the profits of the two classes, namely, the agriculturists and the manufacturers, were compared together, he was convinced that the latter would be found to be beyond all comparison the greater. ticular districts, he would be able to check- | consider a reduction of 350,000l. in the mate every county in the kingdom. He Revenue at the present period of the Seswould be thus able to show that they sion? At an earlier part of the year, when were pursuing a system by which they they found themselves, in consequence of were picking each other's pockets, and by the renewal of the Income Tax, with a conwhich they were all losers in their turn, siderable surplus to deal with, they prowhile the whole country was a loser along ceeded to propose reductions in the duties with them. With regard to the question on various articles to the amount of before the House, he felt confident that it 3,400,000l. Now, it would have been would be dealt with next year, if not in the perfectly open to any hon. Gentleman, present Session; and he hoped that other when these reductions were under conheavily taxed articles-such as silk, which sideration, to have proposed the remission had been alluded to in the course of the of some of these duties, in order to subpresent debate would be taken into con- stitute others for them; but, instead of sideration at the same time. doing so, hon. Gentlemen approved of the various reductions that had een proposed by the Government, and now, after having permitted them to be carried into effect, and after the Government had reduced their estimated surplus revenue to 100,0002. for the year, the hon. Gentleman comes forward in the month of July and proposes a farther reduction of 350,0007., for some time, at least, in the taxation of the country. The Government had already left the surplus revenue much smaller than under ordinary circumstances would be desirable; but they wished to make a great financial experiment, and they therefore ventured as far as they possibly could go. Again, if the present Motion were carried, another hon. Member (Mr. Foster) intended proposing another Resolution, which involved an additional reduction of no less than 80,000l. He would ask, did the House think it right to annihilate the small sum that would remain in the hands of Government, and to run the risk of having a deficiency of 200,000l. or 300,000l. at the end of the present year? He opposed this Motion wholly on financial grounds, and he thought it decidedly objectionable to permit the propositions of Her Majesty's Government with regard to finance to be confirmed at the proper period of the Session, and that each individual Member should be at liberty to make propositions involving large financial changes. If the House had not confidence in the Government, whose business it was to bring forward a proposition of finance for the year, let a Motion of want of confidence be made. He said that the Go Dr. Bowring said, if the manufacturers of this country required the consumers to pay a higher price than the same article could be procured for elsewhere, then, indeed, the comparison drawn by the hon. Member who had last spoken would hold good. But the manufacturers had repeatedly declared that they required no protection, and they even showed that those manufactures which had been most protected had progressed least. Sir Robert Peel had been rather curious to know what Motion the hon. Member would have made, provided he succeeded in inducing the House to go into Committee. In the early part of the Session, when the hon. Member before brought the subject forward, he had been under the impression that the object of the hon. Member was to move for an absolute and total repeal of these duties; but now, when his right hon. Friend had argued that the Motion of the hon. Gen-vernment was bound, at the proper period tleman involved a loss of 350,000l. to the revenue, the hon. Member cried out "no, no," as it implied only a reduction of the duty. But how was it to be expected that Her Majesty's Government could seriously of the year, to make an exposition of their financial scheme for the year, and then it was for the House to adopt or reject it; but to take the course adopted by the hon. Member opposite, of bringing forward a financial proposition of this nature late in the Session, must derange the commercial policy of the country, and render it altogether uncertain what line would be pursued. He trusted the House would not accede to the Motion. Colonel Sibthorp said, he for one had not confidence in the Government. The right hon. Baronet asked, why not bring forward a Motion of want of confidence? If such a Motion were made, the right hon. Baronet would probably find himself having recourse to the other side of the House to help him through. Mr. M. J. O'Connell wished his hon. Friend would not press his Motion to a division; but at the same time, if he did so, he (Mr. O'Connell) would feel it his duty to vote with him. His constituents depended more on the sale of butter, than even on corn; but still he thought one rule should be applied to all agricultural produce; and in proof of the little danger: which was to be apprehended from foreign competition, he might refer to the flaxgrowers of Ulster, who, though at first alarmed at the reduction of the duty on flax, now produced a larger quantity of that article than they had ever done before. Mr. Ewart replied: he begged to remind the right hon. Baronet, that it was in consequence of the right hon. Baronet's suggestion he had postponed his Motion on a former occasion. He wished, also to add, that when he spoke of a reduction in these duties, it was from a conviction, that if the rates of duty were reduced one-half on butter and cheese, the gross amount received by the Revenue would fully equal that now arising from these sources. The House divided:-Ayes 38; Noes 136 Majority 98. List of the AYES. Ackers, J. Duckworth, Sir J.T.B. Duncombe, hon. A. Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Graham, rt. hn. Sir J. Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H. Strickland, Sir G. Ward, H. G. TELLERS. Ewart, W. Gibson, M. List of the AYES. Escott, B. Estcourt, T. G. B. Gladstone, Capt. Gore, M. Granby, Marq. of Grimston, Visct. linde, J. H. Hope, hon. C. Hotham, Lord Hussey, T. Ingestre, Visct. Jermyn, Earl Jocelyn, Visct. Neeld, J. Newdegate, C. N. Patten, J. W. Peel, rt. hn. Sir R. Pennant, hon. Col. Polhill, F. Pringle, A. East, J. B. Egerton, W. T. Farnham, E. B. Feilden, W. Ferguson, Sir R. A. Pusey, P. Fitzmaurice, hon. W. Rashleigh, W. Fitzroy, hon. H. Repton, G. W. J. Flower, Sir J. Richards, R. Fox, S. L. Rolleston, Col. Fuller, A. E. Gardener, J. D. Gaskell, J. M. Fremantle, rt.bn.Sir T. Round, J. Gladstone, rt.hn.W.E. Scott, hon. F. Sibthorp, Col. Smith, A. Smith, rt. hn. T. B. C. Somerset, Lord G. Spry, Sir S. T. Sturt, H. C. Thesiger, Sir F. Thornhill, G. Tollemache, hn. F. J. Trollope, Sir J. TELLERS. Young, J. Mr. Forster then CUSTOMS DUTIES.] moved, that the House resolve itself into Committee, for the purpose of considering the propriety of repealing the duty on a great number of articles, such as quinine, torrified starch, horses, mares, colts, &c. He would not, at that late hour, trouble the House by going into the particulars of all these items; but he thought, considering the small amount of duty received from them, that they ought to have been included in the general Tariff; and he hoped the right hon. Baronet would give some satisfactory reason for their omission. Sir R. Peel said, when he had brought forward his reduced Tariff, he did not state that there were not other articles on which a reduction of duty ought not also to be made; but, considering the progress that the Government had made during the past three years in commercial reform, he thought the House might very well leave further alterations in their hands for future consideration. Motion withdrawn. FEES IN CRIMINAL COURTS.] Mr. Escott, in moving the Second Reading of Fees in Criminal Courts Bill, said, persons brought up to a court of justice had certain fees to pay if they were not convicted; and those who were found guilty, had frequently to pay more than ten times the amount of the fine imposed on them in the shape of fees. Interests had sprung up from these fees to defend this system. There were those now living, who remembered when the office of clerk of assize was sold for several thousand pounds, and by a Judge of assize. He trusted that the Bill would be read a second time. If, in preparing its provisions, he had gone too far in any particular, that might be considered in Committee. They could not possibly stop short as regarded the great principle involved in the mea sure. The Attorney General observed, that the House should take care that they were not hurried into rash legislation as to this matter. To a certain extent, he entirely agreed with the hon. and learned Member. The hon. and learned Gentleman was induced to take up the subject, by reason of great abuses which existed in the county with which he himself was more intimately connected. These abuses principally consisted in exacting fees from persons before they were allowed to plead, in taking fees from parties who were acquitted, and in compelling persons to traverse, and so obtaining fees from them. He entirely agreed with the hon. and learned Member, that these were great abuses, and that they should also be remedied; and he was quite prepared to introduce any measure which might have the effect of remedying them. But his hon. and learned Friend had been led too far by his own strong feelings. In the Bill which he had introduced, the House would at once perceive that the principal object was to abolish all fees, in all cases whatsoever, whether of acquittal or conviction; and, whether on trial or indictment, or upon more summary proceedings. By the 55th George III., the fees on acquittal, taken from prisoners, tried either for felony or misdemeanor, were entirely abolished. That Act did not certainly go to the extent for which his hon. and learned Friend properly contended, because it only applied to the case when the parties. were in prison, and charged with felonies. or misdemeanors, and afterwards acquitted. It was a great evil, that parties out on bail, charged with misdemeanor, and afterwards acquitted, should be made to pay fees on that acquittal. He thought that no parties should be called upon to pay fees, before they were admitted to plead. Nor should any party be compelled to traverse, for the purpose of giving fees to the officer; but he was not disposed to say, if a person was disposed to traverse, that all fees on traverses should be abolished. He agreed, that with regard to acquittals, no fee should be taken from a party, whether he were discharged out of prison, or out on bail, and tried for misdemeanor and acquitted. He concurred with the principle so far, as that it was improper to demand fees before parties were permitted to plead; that was a grievance, and that he would remedy; and to that extent he went with his hon. and learned Friend. His | Mitchell, T. A. than the fines imposed by way of punish- Muntz, G. F. Pringle, A. Spooner, R. List of Thesiger, Sir F. Tollemache, hn. F. J. Wakley, T. Warburton, H. Wawn, J. T. TELLERS. Escott, B. Mackenzie, W. F. the AYES. Trollope, Sir J. TELLERS. Rolleston, Col. House adjourned at a quarter to two o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Wednesday, July 23, 1845. MINUTES.] BILLS. Public.-20. Customs Law Repeal; Customs Management; Customs Duties; Warehousing of Goods; British Vessels; Shipping and Navigation; Trade of British Possessions Abroad; Customs Bounties and Allowances; Isle of Man; Smuggling Prevention ; Customs Regulation; Real Property (No. 3); Libel. Reported.-Smoke Probibition; Compensations; Removal of Paupers. 3o and passed ;-Stamp Duties, etc.; Militia Pay; Unions Private.-1. Lutwidge's (or Fletcher's) Estate. 3o and passed:-Darby Court (Westminster); Duddes- PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Morison, from Provost, Magistrates, and Town Council, of Inverness, complaining of Delay of Edinburgh Mail.-By Mr. Escott, from William Hollis, late a Lieutenant in the 36th Regiment of Madras Native Infantry, for Inquiry into his Case.-By Mr. Bannerman, from Insch, for Diminishing the Number of Public Houses. Sir J. Graham had understood, that the object of the hon. Member was merely to abolish fees charged upon the acquittal of parties, of fees exacted from persons admitted to bail, and from persons forced to plead. To that extent, as he had stated last year, he was prepared to go with his hon. Friend; but this Bill went further, and proposed to repeal some Acts of Parliament under which fees were imposed under other circumstances, to its full extent, therefore he could not concur in it. Being prepared to support the object of his hon. Friend so far as he had said, he should vote for the second read-kinnon brought up the Report of the ing of the Bill, upon the understanding Committee on the Smoke Prohibition that it would be modified in Committee. Bill. House divided:--Ayes 40; Noes 6: Majority 34. The House met at twelve o'clock. PROHIBITION OF SMOKE.] Mr. Mac On the Motion that the Amendments made by the Committee on the Bill, be now read a second time, Mr. Ward objected to the Bill, that it would be found impracticable to carry out many of the clauses. There were some trades and manufactures entirely exempted from its operation, and unless he were permitted to introduce some clauses to exempt the manufacturers and workers in Britannia metal, he should be obliged to move that the Report be taken into consideration that day three months. |