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they would so think, but he left the case in could they have heard any man, howtheir hands. If they chose, they might ever much he was to be pitied for the fury allow a newspaper to print anything. His into which his passions had hurried himopinion was, that the courts of law were whether they were sordid passions arising the proper places for redress, and he for from disappointment of expected gains, or one would proceed before them rather than whether it was passion arising from a less in that House by force and power. One reprehensible and despicable motivele word more as to whether this pretended meant the wrong-headed notion that the speech was ever delivered. He was dis- question of which complaint had been posed to think that it was not. He en- made impugned the character and conduct tertained a high respect for the Commons' of the individual to whom he had alluded, House of Parliament; he held in high re- whilst it liad not the remotest tendency to spect their privileges when they were not cast a slur upon him? But whether in one exceeded; he held in high value their sense or the other, that House was bound, powers, which were just and righ:, when if they heard those words, and if they They were not abused; he venerated that meant ever to talk of privilege while they body as the popular branch of our mixed had any existence, they were bound, he institutions; and he knew it to be the most said, to protect their Lordships, and the essential of all. Therefore, he who knew Members of their Secret Committees, from how high the privilege doctrines were there the foul abuse which was represented to held he, who knew that their Lordships have been thus uttered in their presence. held their privileges high, but the other But what followed? At the end of the House of Parliament held them higher still last sentence were these words, there being -he, who knew that they had lately no reprimand from the chair, no Motion fought with the courts of law, and although that the words be taken down, no censure, beaten for a moment had afterwards gained no disapproval, not one word, not even a the victory-he, who knew that the Com- whisper—" the Motion for the production mons had threatened even to proceed of the letter was then agreed to." Thereagainst the Judges of the land whom their fore he said thal this which was so repreLordships had never menaced-he, who sented to be said, must be falsely repreknew that the Commons held this as the sented: he would not believe that the House corner stone of their privileges, namely, of Commons had heard those things. He that those privileges were not confined to must believe that either the words were one House, but common to both-he must not spoken, and were a fabrication, or that believe that, unless he should cease for if spoken they were not heard by the House

, ever after to respect that House of Parlia- as the other papers said they did not hear ment, unless all the veneration he had felt them; or that if they were heard, it was should no longer be entertained for that so indistinctly that no one knew well what House as at present composed, but for the matter was they contained ; and that an ideal and abstract House as it ought supposition alone made it possible for any to be composed--he who held that House one who wished to retain à vestige of rein veneration until they should by their spect for that House of Parliament to beown deeds make it impossible for him any lieve, if the words in question had been longer to respect them - he, therefore, heard, that they had been allowed to pass knew that the Commons must give their without any animadversion. With these Lordships the same privileges which they observations, in which he trusted he had arrogated to themselves, and in pro- said nothing to wound the feelings of any portion as they were high privilegians man-he had cautiously abstained from they must be most cautious and most any offensive topic, unless where he was tremblingly alive to sanctioning any breach bound to say that gross falsehoods had been of their own privileges. Gracious God! stated-probably from some misundercould he, with those feelings, for one standing, misconstruction, or misinformainstant believe it possible that such ribaldry tion-for there were agents before the as he had read to their Lordships was suf. Committee, but none of the parties in quesfered to be spoken in that House, against tion-with these observations he would a Peer of Parliament acting upon a Select leave the question in their Lordships' and Secret Committee, and not one word hands. of reprobation, of censure, of reprimand The Earl of Besborough said, he wished uttered? Did the House of Commons hear to correct one error of the noble and learned those words--could they have heard them Lord. It was not a Select and Secret Com

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mittee, but a Select Committee, from which the inkstand was before his noble Friend, all persons were excluded except the wit- and the Papers laid across the table benesses and parties admitted by leave on tween him and the inkstand,

The reason both sides. On the first day on which why Mr. French was not examined was, the Committee met, the agents put into that there was no charge whatever against bis hands, as chairman, the names of cer- him. The question whether he had not tain witnesses whom they wished to have canvasscd for a lucrative employment, summoned before the Committee. On the which had needlessly excited so much irrisecond day they put some papers into his tation, was negatived, and he (Lord hands, with observations as to the mode in Brougham) did not think it signified a which those witnesses were to be examined. straw, or he should have examined him. The agents for the opposition party also The Earl of Wicklow said, that after the stated to him that, as the agents of the statement of his noble Friend, he could not promoters had been admitted on the first but feel persuaded that as gross a breach of day, they thought it would be but fair that privilege as he had ever known, had been they should be admitted also; and accordo committed. It was impossible for their ingly they were admitted. Those were Lordships to abstain from taking notice of the only persons admitted. Observations it; but what notice ought to be taken he were made opposite to cach name. His had not had sufficient experience to give noble and learned Friend examined the an opinion. After such a case had been witnesses from the Papers before him; and brought forward in so strong a manner, and he had no doubt that all the questions, or after the noble and learned Lord had so the main purport of them, were found in completely succeeded in vindicating himself those Papers. The agents of the promoters from the outrageous attack made upon him, of the Bill applied to him for a copy of the it was necessary for the House to determine Paper containing the heads of observations; what farther steps ought to be adopted. he told them he could not give it them Much depended upon the wishes of the without consultation; and the agent for ' noble and learned Lord ; but if he left the the Bill had, he believed, afterwards been matter in the hands of the House, it seemed furnished with a copy of the observations to him (Lord Wicklow) that it would be which had been handed to the Committee right to summon the printer and reporter for the examination of the witnesses. Wiih of the Times newspaper to the bar, that reference to the suppression of evidence, their Lordships might know whether it was lie must confirm the statement of his noble or was not a correct report. Other newsFriend. The gentleman was called in, papers stated that the hon. Member delivered who gave a detailed statement of certain himself in so low a tone that his words facts, and when he was asked whether he could not be taken down; therefore it was knew them of his own knowledge, or had fit, in the first place, to ascertain whether only heard them from others, he stated that the words imputed had or had not been he had heard them from others. Therefore spoken. Under any circumstances, it was he (the Earl of Bessborough) ordered the a gross breach of privilege

an attack shorthand writer to strike this evidence out made upon a Member of the House of of the evidence. A gentleman gave a de- Lords, in the execution of his duty in one tailed statement of facts, but said he did of the Coumittees. It was the duty of the not know them of his own knowledge. He House to protect him. could only say, that with respect to the Lord Brougham suggested that it was whole case, he was sure he should be borne too serious a matter to be hurried.

He out by the other noble Lords who were on thought there should be no further prothe Committee, when he said that the pro- ceeding in it that day. ceedings were conducted in the fairest way to The Duke of Wellington remarked, that all parties. An application was made to him the subject required a good deal of conto send to the House of Commons to ask sideration before the House decided what for leave to examine Mr. Fitzstephen course it would adopt. The proposition of French ; the Committee, however, were of his noble Friend was, that the editor of the opinion that it was not necessary, but they newspaper should be called to the bar. did not come to that decision from


dis- The Earl of Wicklow interposed that he respect to that gentleman.

say that he had only suggested such a Lord Brougham wished to add that he course, not submitted it as a proposition. had delivered in the Papers containing The Duke of Wellington wished to obsuggested questions without reading them : serve upon it only as a suggestion. The


question to be asked of the editor must be, | reasons, delay seemed not inexpedient. wliether he had or had not been guilty of Ministers had this object distinctly in a breach of one of the privileges of the view, and, as he had stated already, other House of Parliament? Whether he without the altainment of it the measure had published what was or what was not before the House would be imperfect. said in the House of Commons? The

The Marquess of Lansdowne was quite answer in either case would implicate him in satisfied with the explanation of the noble a breach of privilege. He begged to suggest Lord, and was extremely glad to find that to their Lordships that the farther con. what he had suggested, had already been sideration of the subject ought to be ad

. journed till Thursday, in order that in the contemplated by Her Majesty's Governmeantime the best course of proceeding the object could not be accomplished in

ment. He could easily understand why might be considered on what seemed to the present Session; but he hoped that it him a very grave case. The Lord Chancellor observed, that the would be kept constantly in view. He

entertained a very confident opinion that it printer of the newspaper might be asked generally from what source he derived his would not be desirable to place one of the information.

Colleges at the head of the others, but The further discussion was then add some neighbouring town or even village journed till Thursday.

might be selected as a central position for

all. The manner in which University and COLLEGES (IRELAND) Bu...] Moved ated and formed into one University, would

King's Colleges, London, had been affili. that the House do resolve itself into Com- form a useful precedent to guide Minismittee.

ters in their design to raise the new Irish Lord Stanley said, that he had a trifling Colleges into a separate University. If Amendment to propose in relation to the he did not propose any Amendment to proviso of the 14th Clause, which proviso the Bill on the subject of the appointwas somewhat at variance with the Clause. ment of professors, it was because the It had reference to the lecture rooms for religious instruction, and he proposed to retain arrangement giving the choice to Ministers

was only temporary. the proviso that no pupil should be required to receive any religious instruction but such

Lord Campbell would only offer one

suggestion. It appeared that Ministers as was approved by his parents or guardians. He would take this opportunity of

intended to endow several new Colleges

in Ireland; three had been previously spoalluding to the suggestion of a noble Marquess (Marquess of Lansdowne) last night,

ken of, but last night four were mentioned. that Ministers should give the new Colleges

Lord Stanley said, that what he meant the privileges of a University. He admitted was, that in future there would be four that the grant of the power to confer de Colleges in Ireland. grees seemed a natural complement of the Lord Campbell added, that his suggesmeasure. Ministers were of opinion that tion was, that instead of three new Cola it would be incomplete without it ; but the leges only one should be founded. Great question required more consideration than difficulty might be experienced in estabit would now be possible to afford to it. lishing three Colleges at once, and he Perhaps the most satisfactory course, on doubted whether a sufficient number of some accounts, would be to affiliate the pupils would be obtained in the first in. new Colleges with Trinity College, Dub- stance. If only one general College were lin; but their Lordships would be aware opened, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and that there were difficulties in the way of Roman Catholics, would be brought 10such an arrangement. Then came the gether and united in one common pursuit of question whether the new Colleges ought knowledge, and they might form friendnot to be associated as a separate Uni- ships which would last for life. The versity, the general meeting to be held manner in which the whole of Ireland either at a distinct place or alternately would soon be intersected by railroads, at one of the Colleges. It would obvi. would remove all difficulty of conveyance, ously be highly desirable, upon this and and the pupils from all quarters might be olher points, that the opinions and collected in one establishment. To this wishes of the governing bodies should establishment the power of granting debe ascertained, and for this and other grees might at once be given, and it might


be raised to the dignified position now

tive Council of New South Wales, for Alteration of Laws

relating to that Colony.--By Mr. Dennistoun, Mr. C. occupied by Trinity College, Dublin.

Buller, and Mr. F. Scott, from several places in New The Marquess of Clanricarde could not South Wales, for Repeal of certain Acts relating to that agree with his noble and learned Friend, Colony.-By Mr. Dennistoun, Mr. Spooner, and Mr. Vil

liers, from several places, for Alteration of Policy with and was convinced that the foundation of

regard to New Zealand.-- By Mr. C. Russell, from Mayor, only one College would not satisfy the Aldermen, and Burgesses, of Reading, against Deodands wants or the wishes of the people of Ire

Abolition (No. 2) Bill.-By Mr. Dennistoun, from Mer.

chants, and others, of Glasgow, for Abolishing Privileges land. He saw no reason why the new of Incorporated Trades (Scotland).-By Mr. G, Hamil. Colleges should not be affiliated with Tri. ton, from J. Dunn, W. Goddard, and R. J. T. Orpen,

Solicitors of the High Court of Chancery (Ireland), nity College, Dublin, and such an ar

against Taxing Master Court of Chancery (Ireland) rangement would give the greatest satisfaction 10 the main body of the people. Trinity College had not had justice done

The House met al twelve o'clock. to it, as regarded the number of men of letters and science she had produced. SMALL Debts (No. 3) Bill.] On the Lord Monteagle entered into some com

Motion of the Solicitor General the House parative details connected with the new went into Comunittee on this Bill. Colleges, and urged that the establish- On the 1st Clause, ment of a new University was necessary Mr. Wakley said, he must enter his to render the design of Ministers complete protest against proceeding with the Bill, It was very fit that time should be iaken because since the Bill was brought down to consider the best means of attaining from the other House, thirteen new clauses this object; and he apprehended that had been introduced, and three schedules delay would be attended with no practi- had been added, which hon. Members had cal disadvantage.

never before seen. He should feel it bis The Earl of Ellenborough thought that duty to move that the chairman do report difficulty would be found in the outsel, in progress, and obtain leave to sit again. procuring a sufficient number of persons He would only ask for one day, in order capable of filling the office of professor: to consider these new clauses. doubt Government would use their

Sir James Graham said, he was very best exertions, but he doubted how far sorry that, owing to a mistake of the they would be successful. It was impos- printer, the Bill had not been put into the sible at once to create a College like hands of hon. Members at an earlier Eton, or a University like Oxford; lives period. If the bon. Member pressed his must pass away before it was accomplished, Motion, he (Sir J. Graham) should not and reputation could not be conferred by think he was doing his dury if he did Act of Parliament. The real benefit to not at once accede to it. He did not be derived from such institutions was the think, however, that there was anything formation of good citizens with kindly in the new clauses that would be found feelings towards each other, generated by objectionable, and he would postpone the early association.

Bill till Thursday. Jlouse adjourned.

Mr. T. Duncombe objected very strongly

to that part of the Bill providing that the II (USE OF COMMONS,

wages of workmen should be arrested in

the hands of their masters for the pay. Tuesday, July 22, 1845. ment of their debts. He objected to that

clause operating in any case, except that MINUTES.) BILLS. Public.-19. Service of Heirs (Scot

land) ; Crown Charters, etc. (Scotland); Real Property of yearly salaries. Weekly wages were (No. 3).

very uncertain, sometimes more, some20. Documentary Evidence; Real Property (No. 1): As

signment of Terms; Granting of Leases; Fees (Criminal times less. If that part of the Bill were Courts).

persisted in, he thought that it would be Reported. --- Militia Pay; Stamp Duties, etc.; Games and found to operate to the extreme dissatisWagers; Unions (Ireland); Testamentary Dispositions, faction of all parties. etc.; Drainage of Estates. 3o. and passed : -Highways; Railways (Selling or Leas- The Solicitor General said, he thought ing); Lunatics.

that the effect of that part of the Bill had Private.--2°. Birmingham Blue Coat School Estate ; Molyneux's (or Follett's) Estate.

been misapprehended by the hon. Mem. Reported.--Darby Court (Westminster).

ber. The clause objected to contained no PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. C. Bruce, and Mr. Pringle,

from Presbyteries of Arbroath and Kelso, against Uni- power for the attachment of wages on versities (Scotland) Bill.—By Mr. F. Scott, from Legisla- their passage from the hands of the master


to the workman. It would only operate county rate in favour of the parishes of in cases where the wages were more than Marylebone, St. Pancras, and St. George, sufficient to supply the means of life, in and be in a manner unjust to the other which case the surplus would be attached, parishes of the county of Middlesex. and that only on the order of a Judge. Mr. Hume thought that the clause

Sir J. Graham said, be had collected could not with any consistency or fairfrom the hon. Gentleman that it would be ness be introduced into the Bill, and agreeable to all parties to postpone the would suggest that it might be belter to Bill till 10-morrow.

introduce a private Bill to effect the purHouse resumed. Committee to sit pose of the clause. again.

Sir J. Grahan said, he could give no

premature opinion on the subject of a LUNATICS.) On the Motion of Lord private Bill, because he should like to Ashley, the Lunatics’ Bill was read a know what the ratepayers of a part of third time.

Paddington, who were a portion of the Mr. T. Duncombe proposed the intro- parish of Marylebone, and a very poor duction of a clause limiting the Bill to portion indeed, would say to the introducthree years, and from that time to the uon of a private Bill. then next Session of Parliament. The Clause negatived. bon. Member again urged his former ob- Mr. T. Duncombe protested against the jections against the payment to the Com- appointment of medical and legal men as missioners of such enormous salaries. Commissioners with such enormous sala

The Clause brought up and read a first ries. Ile would beg to move, as an Amend. time.

ment, " That the salary be 1,2001. a year, On the Motion that it be read a second instead of 1,5001." time,

The House divided on the Question that Mr. Hume supported the Motion, be- the words “ five hundred” stand part of cause, in his opinion, it was of the utmost the Bill:- Ayes 32; Noes 13: Majority importance that the public should see how 19. the Bill worked. He also contended, that, Further proceedings postponed. as the Commissioners were to be paid such House adjourned. large salaries, their daily attendance ought After five o'clock, to be enforced.

Lord Ashley defended the permanent RAJAI OF SATTARA.] Mr. Hume rose to character of the Bill; and contended that bring forward the Motion of which he had it was absolutely necessary to pay large given notice relative to the Rajah of Sattara. salaries, in order to have men of talent He felt, he said, great reluctance to interand standing in their professions as Com- fere between the House and an adjournid missioners. In his opinion it was much debate, but having arrived at that late more economical that the Bill should be period of the Session, if he let that opporpermanent.

tunity slip he was afraid The House divided:-Ayes 13; Noes, Sir R. Peel said, it was in general very 43: Majority 30.

convenient that they should proceed conClause rejected.

secutively with an adjourned debate; Sir C. Napier moved the introduction therefore, with the leave of the hon. Genof a clause to the effect that any parish tlemen, he would ask whether, if the dishaving a population of 100,000 persons, cussion upon the Motion of the hon. Memand rated at a rental of 500,0001., beber for Montrose were over in time to reenabled to erect an asylum for itself. sume the debate upon the affairs of New Clause read a first time.

Zealand, the hon. Gentlemen who had On the Question that it be read a second other Motions were prepared to give way time,

for that purpose? It would be a great Sir J. Graham objected to the clause convenience to have it brought to a close. being introduced into the Bill, because it Mr. Ewart was placed in some diffiwas nothing less than engrafting a new cully by the request. He stood pledged Bill upon the one at present under dis- to several parties to bring on the Mooien cussion. In fact, it was subject matter which stood in his name, and he feared for a private Bill. He also objected to another opportunity would not offer duthe clause, because it would break up the ring the Session. He stood in a peculiar

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