a tholics and Dissenters, though admitted sion of any portion of the revenues of Trito the benefits of education, are excluded nity College, for the purpose of conferring from the emoluments. Is this the course scholarships or advantages of that descripthat should be pursued ? I have heard tion on persons not professing the religion the petition which has been presented to of the State. I think, my Lords, that such night by the noble Earl near me (the Earl an interference with Trinity College would of Eldon), not from the University of unnecessarily and dangerously excite the Oxford, but from certain Members of that Protestant feeling of the country, raise University; and if we were legislating for against you Protestant prejudices, and a country in which there were no religious create Protestant animosity, without at differences; if we were all members of the at the same time tending to the harmony same church, followers of the same creed, or advantage of the institution itself. and acknowledged the same spiritual head, What then? Will you establish in DubI can readily conceive the advantage of lin itself three or four rival colleges, each making science in all cases the handmaid dedicated to the support and maintenance of religion, and binding both together in of a particular creed, with professors beindissoluble bonds. But is it so in Ire- longing to that creed, endowed by the land? Recollect that we have to deal Staie? I think that such a proposition practically with the case of Ireland; a would not be likely even if the Protestant case where the established religion is the population of this country were willing to religion of a small minority; with the concede it, to tend to the harmony of the case of a country which is separated into city of Dublin. I think that the inevitable various religious creeds, and subdivisions consequence of having three or four such of those creeds. Then what are you to rival institutions within the precincts of do? Are you, for the purpose of extend the metropolis would be, that their rivalry ing the advantages of academical educa. would lead to controversial disputes and tion in Ireland, to cling to the system of discussions, which, in a short period, would Oxford and Cambridge, to require that generate bitter hostility. You have now tests shall be taken, if not by the students, to deal with a case in which it is necessary at least by all the professors? Are you, in to provide for the moral education of a establishing academical education for a large portion of people who differ from people mainly Roman Catholic, to insist you in their religious creed. ihat all the institutions shall be built upon would be most unfortunate that you should the basis of the Church of England ? deprive Trinity College, Dublin, itself, And if not, what will you do? Will of the advantages of educating within its you, if I may coin a word, unprotestantize walls a considerable number of Roman Trinity College, Dublin? Will you open Catholics. I think it is a matter of infinite the emoluments and the endowments importance that you should not diswill you deal with the revenues and the courage - I would say that you should statutes of that College, and throw it open rather endeavour, by all the means in your with, if you please, increased endowments power, 10 encourage the combined instructo all classes of the population, without tion, as far as it can be combined, of the religious distinction ? Her Majesty's Go. young men of Ireland of different religious vernment do not think it would be expe- persuasions. I am satisfied that the fact dient, wise, or just, to take such a course. of being educated in the same College, of They consider that Trinity College is, and being brought up under the same teachers, always has been, a Protestant establish- of being competitors for the same honours, ment endowed for Protestant purposes, of being admitted impartially to those supported by Protestant funds, and in honours, of mixing together in familiar tended as a nursery for the formation of society at a period of life when the affecclerical members of the Protestant Church tions are warm, and the heart open and as established in Ireland. And here I must ready to receive impressions, not only of be permitted to do justice to a Gentleman a lively, but permanent nature - 1 am from whom I widely differ on some points, satisfied that such a course tends more in admitting the liberality of a sentiment than any other that could be devised to which he expressed in giving his evidence soften those asperities which may arise before your Lordships in 1825. Mr. O'Con- in alter life, and lead both parties to judge nell, to whom I refer, deprecated on that more calmly, and inake greater allowances occasion, as an act of injustice, the diver- for their different religious feelings, bow. a a ments: when dealing with the laity of these three persuasions, I do entreat of your Lordships to throw, if possible, one drop of sweetness into that amount of bitterness which too unhappily prevails throughout Ireland, and permit the youth of that country to be educated in ever great and fundamental may be the stages to be derived from a united educapoints upon which those differences rest. tion to assent to any such proposition. I Would that object be likely to be effected think, that as you have given your sancby different Colleges being established in tion to an exclusive system in Trinity the city of Dublin? I think, my Lords, College, Dublin, for the purpose of supit is quite clear that the infallible conse-plying clergymen of the Established quence of establishing within the limits of Church, and as you have connected theothe city of Dublin a Protestant College, a logical professors of the Presbyterian Presbyterian College, a Roman Catholic creed with the Presbyterian institution at College, and a Unitarian College, would be Belfast, so do I think that you have wisely that Roman Catholic parents would send and liberally agreed to contribute to the edutheir children to the Roman Catholic Col-cation of the Roman Catholic priesthood, lege, Presbyterians theirs to the Presbyter-by endowing the College of Maynooth. ian College, members of the Church of Eng-All these, however, are theological endowland theirs to the Protestant College, and the Unitarians theirs to the Unitarian College, thus breaking up that union which now subsists, and most advantageously subsists, within the walls of Trinity College, and reducing the College itself to a merely exclusive institution. Thanks to the abolition of the penal laws, the Roman Ca-common, and under the same teachers, in tholics of the country are rapidly rising in station and amount of property. There may be those who regret to see their Roman Catholic fellow countrymen thus rapidly ascending in the scale of society; but for my part, my Lords, I cordially rejoice at it. But, at all events, rejoice at or regret it as we may, it is a fact, my Lords, with which you must deal; and if you are to educate the middle classes of the people, you must necessarily educate the Roman Catholics of Ireland. What, then, will you do? I reject the alternative of opening Trinity College, and doing away with the existing application of its revenues and its existing distinctions; 1 deprecate the establishing of rival Colleges in the Irish metropolis; and I have, therefore, only to entreat your Lordships favourably to consider the only other alternative at least the only one that presents itself to my mind-namely, the estab-godless education." That designation, if lishment of different Colleges in different justly applicable to the plan now propounded provinces in Ireland-Colleges that shall by Her Majesty's Government, applies with be placed in such a position that while equal, if not greater force, to the University they disclaim and disavow, and steadily of London, in which the absence of tests, repudiate all sectarian principles, all pro- of theological examinations, and of divinity selytism, and all religious sects, yet shall lectures, is a fundamental rule of the be able to teach somewhat of the prevail-institution itself. The Scotch are anying opinion and creed of the people in the thing but an irreligious people, and yet I district in which they were established. believe it is a principle of all Scotch UniYou may ask, why not establish a Pres-versities without exception, that with rebyterian College in Belfast, an exclusively gard to the pupils, there shall be no reliRoman Catholic institution in Cork, Lim-gious tests, no compulsory attendance erick, and Galway, and an exclusively upon public worship or upon divinity lec Protestant one in Dublin? My answer is, tures, and no theological examination. that I set too much value upon the advan- These are not merely not compelled to be all those branches of learning which do not, and cannot, affect their religious opinions. The plan which Her Majesty's Government are anxious to lay before your Lordships, and which has already obtained the sanction of the House of Commons, goes to establish in the four provinces of Ireland academical collegiate institutions, of which the basis and fundamental principle shall be this-that there shall be no religious test required; that no theological examination shall be deemed necessary as a part of the College discipline; and that there shall be no attempt whatever to interfere by the College authorities with the religious opinions of the students. But, my Lords, I repudiate altogether that stigma, for so I consider it, which is sought to be fixed upon this scheme, by designating it, as it has been designated in another place, as a "gigantic scheme of observed, but they formed no part of the the danger of proselytism, or the incon- The Earl of Shrewsbury: My Lords, willing as I am to give the Government every credit for the best possible intentions in this measure, still I cannot but lament that it has not been presented to us in a form more suitable to the wants and wishes of those for whose benefit chiefly it is proposed; nor have I heard anything from the noble Lord who introduced it, to induce me to alter that opinion. fast and Dublin, are all profligate towns. I deal with a class belonging only to one reBut, according to my recollection, I do ligion, that you will take the only course not think there was such absolute security by which you can fairly confer upon to the morals of the students under the them the advantages of a liberal and system of collegiate seclusion adopted at academical education. I am convinced Oxford as should make it a model which that if you reject this measure, it will we ought to follow in preference to the be attended with the most serious consesystem adopted at Edinburgh and Glas- quences; on the other hand it is imposgow. If placed within reach of a great sible to overrate the good which may be town-and the convenience of having a derived to generations yet unborn, from College so placed is very great-I can- introducing into Ireland, by the unaninot see, whether the pupils live within mous consent of Queen, Lords, and Com. the walls of the College, or in houses in mons, and a liberal endowment from the the town, that any more control can be national fund, an establishment for the exercised over them in one case than the diffusion of an enlightened system of eduother. In Ireland the advantage of placing cation, under professors qualified to give the Colleges in large towns is still greater instruction to the rising generation than in this country; for a very large por- throughout all Ireland, by which a litertion of those who will send their chil- ary, scientific, and moral education may dren to them will be actual residents be conveyed to all the middle classes, within those towns; so that in those and which cannot fail in the result to cases they can secure for their children confer the unquestionable benefit of relithe benefits of an academical education, gious instruction also upon the people. and at the same time those of parental superintendence and protection. Then we propose by this Bill that no young men shall be permitted to be members of those institutions unless they are living within their parents' houses, or in houses licensed for that purpose by the governing body. who have the power of withdrawing those licenses if a proper control be not exercised; and recollect, that none except the Principal is to reside within the College; what is, then, more certain than that the professors, taking houses in the town in which they are to deliver lectures, will themselves open boarding-houses for the pupils who come from a distant part of the country, and who will thus be placed under the immediate superintendence of a professor, Protestant or Roman Catholic, according to the feelings or wishes of the parent, and have secured to him at the same time the advantages of a domestic supervision? But we go further; for if parents should prefer the tutorial system, we will give every facility for the establishment of halls, the rules and regulations of which may be laid down by the party endowing them, provided they do not vio-ically described; and which, notwithlate the religious faith of others, and subject to the veto of the governing body. I have thus briefly stated the principle of the measure. I will not enter into the details. I entreat your Lordships, in dealing with a country in which the education of the middle classes is most strongly felt, and in which you cannot VOL. LXXXII. {} Third Series My Lords, this measure has been declared to be "dangerous to the faith and morals of the people," by the unanimous voice of the Catholic hierarchy of Ireland, because the requirements of religion are not incorporated with the scheme. Nor will I believe there is one noble Lord in this House who does not feel that education without religion is a moral evil; and that even the so-called superstitions of Rome, are a fair substitute for infidelity. That admitted, how comes it that you are about to establish for a very large and intelligent portion of the community over which you rule, a system of public instruction, which has been so truly and emphat standing the few modifications since introduced into it, is still, (as I think, at least) to be so truly described as "a gigantic scheme of godless education"? My Lords, is not the reason to be found in this--that you are fearful of another conflict with the fanatical prejudices of the country? For is not this an analogous case to the 2 B measure founded upon the strongest claims of right, justice, and expediencysupported by the strongest Government which the country has seen for yearscarried eventually by large majorities in both Houses of Parliament, in spite of an opposition, though numerically small, yet bold and uncompromising — but a measure which, had you yielded to the influence which now appears to arrest you, had been thrust aside by the wild clamour of a mere section-as I am sure it is-of the people of England and of Scotland; a section, however, which you are now elevating to the highest pinnacle of power, by openly avowing yourselves subservient to it! My Lords, I do think payment of the Catholic clergy? on which | a the noble President of the Council not long since thus expressed himself: "That as to himself, he had long since expressed his opinion on that point. He had, when in the Commons, voted for the measure proposed by Lord Francis Egerton. But he would fairly state, that, until he could see that the people of England would be favourable to such a measure, he did not think it would be prudent in any Government to propose it. He did look forward with hope to a time when a change would take place; but there were now so many difficulties in the way, that he did not know how any one could conceive that the Government had any intention of proposing such a measure. It would be for the Go vernment to watch the feelings of the country on the subject; and in the mean time they proposed this measure (the Maynooth Bill), as one which was important in itself, and as an earnest to the people of Ireland, that it was their wish to do all that lay in their power to conciliate them." Now, my Lords, I will not stop here to inquire how far this avowal may be consistent with the principles of the Constitution under which we live: whether it be not merging both your Lordships' privileges, and the rights of the Lower House, in a power which the Constitution only recognises as represented, not representing. But, considering this present measure as analogous to that to which these observations of the noble Lord refer, the enigma is at once solved; nor can I see any other solution of it. Yes, my Lords, though you have been victorious once, and would undoubtedly be victorious again, yet, by some strange fatality, do you dread another conflict with the fanaticism which assailed you under the Maynooth Bill. My Lords, the people of Ireland ask you, why it is that they who are Christians are to be educated like heathens without the knowledge of God? and you answer them-because you are the vas sals of Protestant England, which deems your creed superstitious, and your worship idolatrous. My Lords, is this a wise or a safe answer to give to the cry for Repeal? And are these the people whom you are so studious to conciliate? You did not argue thus under the Maynooth Bill; or rather, you crushed that argument under the weight of your authority. Why listen to it now? Had you listened to it then, you knew that you had lost for ever the whole moral force of every effort you might make against Repeal; for that was that the inference is just; for between the principle of the two measures there is no difference, nor yet between them and the payment of the Catholic clergy; but for which latter (whether it might be for good or for evil, religiously speaking, is another question, and not now to the purpose) - but for which, presuming it to be politically advantageous, as it is asserted to be, we are now to wait for the good pleasure of the fanatical party in England-we must watch the feelings of the country on the subject. My Lords, had such been your policy only a few weeks since, you never after could have told the people of Ireland that they were represented in the Parliament of England; yet, such is your policy now, admitting as you must-and no man doubts or denies it--that religion ought to form the basis, the strength, and the handmaid of every wise system of education. It is a mere mockery, my Lords, (at least so it appears to me,) to tell the Catholics of Ireland that they may provide this for themselves; for, divested as they have been of the whole of their own ecclesiastical property-taxed for the support of two Churches-continually exhausted by their own heroic efforts, as I may justly call them, to supply their own miserable deficiencies in suitable places of religious worship, by the erection, in many instances, of splendid structures in the true, old, ecclesiastical style; and in which, to the credit of their Protestant landlords be it said, they are often generously assisted by them-thus circumstanced, it is not possible to suppose that they either can or will provide those very large resources necessary to carry out the task you have imposed upon them. Why, my |