a day. He also objected to the item of 3601. for washing in the prison, as he thought the prisoners ought, at least, be made to keep the prison clean.

Colonel Sibthorp said, he did not know what the hon. gentleman paid his labourers, but he could assure him that he (Colonel Sibthorp) and hon. Friends near him paid their labourers from 12s. to 15s. a week.

Mr. Hindley would wish to know how many officers were in the prison, and what salaries were paid to them.

The right hon. Baronet read an extract from the Report of the Commissioners, recently presented to Parliament, to show that the experiment of training the prisoners to the higher branches of labour, by which they might be enabled to earn an honest livelihood in another country, and the attention paid to the improvement of their morals in the Pentonville establishment, had been attended with success. In reply to the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Line, he wished to say that he believed the Paper containing a return of the number of the instructors, which was considerable, and of their salaries, was ready, and could be presented at once.

Mr. Ewart expressed his approbation of the system adopted in the Pentonville establishment; but regretted that it was not carried further, and applied to Van Diemen's Land, the system of which was quite at variance with this, and ought to be abolished.

Mr. Williams had heard the statement of the right hon. Baronet with great pleas ure. He rejoiced at the success of the experiment, and the improvement it had effected in the habits of the prisoners; but he confessed, he doubted the policy of making those men tailors or shoemakers. What the Colony to which they were sent wanted was persons having some know

Sir J. Graham said, that the hon. Member for Coventry was rather a hard taskmaster. Last year he complained in like manner of the annual expense of this establishment, when the grant amounted to 20,3647. In 1843, it was 25,8501. This year it was 16,2187., showing a decrease on last year of 4,146., and on the previous year of 9,6321.; without any diminution, he should rather say, there was an increase in the number of prisoners. Viewing the system abstractedly, he admitted that it could not be regarded as economical, although he could assure the hon. Member that every attention was paid to economy in the arrangements of the prison. All the prisoners confined in the establishment were convicts under sentence of transportation for a period of not less than 7, and in many cases 10 and 14 years. Un-ledge of agriculture or agricultural labour. less the system of this establishment proved successful, it would be the duty of the State to maintain those prisoners in a penal Colony, for the period of their sentence. If successful, if by the discipline to which the prisoners were subjected, a reform were effected in their character and habits at the expiration of eighteen months, that being the time for which they were here impris-bered the system of Pentonville prison oned, they might be said to be no longer a source of expense to the State, because, from the moment of their arrival in the penal Colony, the State was relieved from the cost of supporting them. As far as the experiment had gone, it had proved eminently successful. He admitted that the system of prison discipline was not in itself economical; but if he were right in the position he had just attempted to establish, it eventually proved so to the nation; because the comparatively trifling expense attendant upon the instruction they received during the short term of their imprisonment here, superseded the necessity of a very heavy expense during the prolonged period of their transportation.

Their services would prove much more valuable and important. With regard to the question he first started, he must observe that the right hon. Baronet had not at all accounted for the inability of the prisoners while in this establishment to earn more than three-halfpence a day.

Sir J. Graham said, it must be remem

was the system of complete separation, so that labour could not be carried on so as to meet the hon. Member's views.

Mr. Hindley asked what were the respective salaries of the chaplain and the medical officer.

Mr. Cardwell replied, that the chaplain received 4007. a year, the assistant chaplain 2001. a year, and the medical attendant 3007. a year.

Mr. Hindley considered such a charge to be monstrous. It was paying more than a pound a head for each prisoner.

Mr. Hawes said, that he had repeatedly visited the prison, and he knew that the duties of the chaplain were most laborious. It was utterly impossible to carry out the

re

system without having such an officer as, which would be of essential service to them chaplain. He believed that the money when removed to the Colonies; while for this purpose was most properly and others, who had been guilty of the most beneficially laid out,

serious crimes, the commission of which Mr. Wakley said, that the system of was formerly attended with capital punishadministration in that gaol could not be ment, were selected to be sent to Norfolk tried without a large expenditure of Island. On the arrival of the former class pounds, shillings, and pence. He had at Van Diemen's Land, after having been often been in this prison, and he believed taught a trade, there was a further gradathat nothing could be better than the sys- tion. Some of them received a conditem existing there. In the first instance, tional pardon, while others received ticket he had viewed the foundation of the of leave, which was a gradation something establishment with feelings of horror, and short of pardon. With respect to every as being merely an instrument of torture; convict, there was a special report made but the results had been most astonishing, to him, and on such report be, on his and most gratifying. He had examined sponsibility, provided accordingly. He the prisoners themselves closely, and he need not allude to the high character of had watched the proceedings, and he those three gentlemen, as they were well firmly believed that not one in fifty of the known. Their respective salaries, as inunfortunate inmates of the prison, when spectors of prisons, was only £800 a year; liberated, would again violate the laws of and as these additional duties had been the country.

imposed upon them, it was only conVote agreed to.

sidered proper that they should have an On the Vote that 28,1181. be granted increase of £200 a year, making altogether to defray the expenses of the Millbank | £1000 a year. Prison for the year 1845-46, being put, Vote agreed to.

Mr. W. Williams said, that he observed On the vote of 250,0001. to defray the that in this Estimate, there was a charge charges of Convict Expenditure in New of £200 a year each for three inspectors of South Wales and Van Diemen's Land, the prison. This appeared to be a new Mr. Ewart took occasion to object to species of appointment; he, therefore, the whole system of transportation at wished to know what was the object of present adopted. He stated that the free it?

settlers in Van Diemen's Land were exSir J. Graham observed, that this tremely indignant at the letting loose charge certainly appeared for the first time amongst them of the most depraved charin the Estimates, but it was necessary, in aciers. He understood that morality consequence of new arrangements with was no longer safe in that Colony, and that respect to this prison. Complaints were the free settlers were about petitioning formerly repeatedly made by several hon. Parliament against what the noble Lord Gentlemen as to the system of prison dis- the Secretary for the Colonies termed cipline carried on in this prison. He had the probationary system.” He was considered it expedient to alter the whole of opinion that much more good might be system in this prison. By this new ar-effected than at present by substituting rangement, every male and female convict, the Penton ville system for that of transsentenced to transportation, was, as soon portation, whilst he believed that the exas possible, conveyed to Millbank, and pense would not be so great. there they remained for three months un- Sir J. Graham could not deny that der the close inspection of these three there were many serious moral objecofficers. The persons appointed to these tions to transporting felons into a Colony; offices, were the three inspectors of pris-but, taking the balance of good and ons. One or other of these inspected the evil, he thought it was far better that they convicts in Millbank prison constantly, should be transported, than be retained in indeed almost daily. At the end of three the mother country. On the average, the months the inspectors, in their report to number of prisoners convicted of felony in him, recommended the course which Great Britain, amounted annually to some should be adopted as to the future desti- 5,000. Pentonville would not contain nation of each convict. They selected a above 600 ; besides, he could not think of certain number for the Pentonville prison, recommending that the Pentonville syswhere they would be taught a useful trade, tem should be applied to the whole of

these 5,000; he doubted, in fact, whe- | view to providing better means of instructher it could be properly applied to more tion in the science. than the present number out of the average number annually convicted.

field and Rotherham Railway; Edinburgh and Glasgow | portion of it in the House.
Railway; Newcastle and Darlington (Brandling June-
tion) Railway; Southampton and Dorchester Railway;

Eastern Union Railway Amendment; Glasgow, Paisley,
Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway (Cumnock Branch); Dun-
Edmund's) Railway ; Londonderry and Enniskillen Rail-

dalk and Enniskillen Railway; Eastern Union (Bury St.

way; Chester and Birkenhead Railway Extension; Whitehaven and Furness Railway; Manchester, Bury, and Rossendale Railway (Heywood Branch); Great

North of England and Richmond Railway; Blackburn and Preston Railway; Leeds and Thirsk Railway; Huddersfield and Manchester Railway and Canal; North Wales Railway; Taw Vale Railway and Dock; Man

chester and Birmingham Railway (Ashton Branch); Ashton, Stalybridge, and Liverpool Junction (Ardwick and Railway (Ely and Whittlesea) Deviation; Manchester, South Junction, and Altrincham Railway; Trent Valley Railway; London and Brighton Railway (Horsham neral Railway; North Union and Ribble Navigation Branch Railway; Saint Helen's Canal and Railway;

Guide Bridge Branches) Railway; Eastern Counties

Branch); Ulster Railway Extension; North Wales Mi

The noble

Duke then read an extract from the petition, stating that the petitioners did not deem it necessary to trouble their Lordships' House with any details of the services in which they had been engaged, because the Thanks of Parliament had been repeatedly offered for these duties, and because self-adulation would ill become the character of British soldiers: That they threw themselves on the recommendation of their Lordships, with an earnest hope that the House would interpose in their behalf by drawing the favourable notice of the Sovereign to their case. He thought it was scarcely necessary for him to detain their Lordships at any length on the subject of that petition. He felt, (Dublin to Mullingar and Athlone); Cockermouth however, that he ought to remind the and Workington Railway; Richmond (Surrey) Rail- House of the great importance which the chester Railway; Great Southern and Western Rail- Operations in the Peninsular war were to way (Ireland); Preston and Wyre Railway; Lynn the ultimate pacification of the world. and Dereham Railway; Middlesbro' and Redcar Rail There were many of their Lordships who niskillen Railway; Dublin and Belfast Junction Rail- might remember that period of the history way; Waterford and Limerick Railway; Glossop Gas; of the country, when alarms prevailed Glasgow Bridges; Totnes Markets and Waterworks; throughout the greater part of the nation Market, and Waterworks; Dundee Waterworks; Black-when the walls of Parliament, night burn Waterworks; Hartlepool Pier and Port; Kendal after night, re-echoed with melancholy Reservoirs; Manchester Improvement; Belfast Improve forebodings that the British army would, before long, have to fall back on their ships and Clyde Navigation and Canal Junction; Manchester for refuge, and be forced, probably at no Court of Record; Reversionary Interest Society: Key-distant day, to return to their native land

Great North of England, Clarence and Hartlepool
Junction Railway; Great Western Railway, Ireland

way; Cork and Bandon Railway; Liverpool and Man.

way; Dublin and Drogheda Railway; Newry and En

Wolverhampton Waterworks; Lyme Regis Improvement,

ment; Chelsea Improvement; Agricultural and Commercial Bank of Ireland; Quinborowe Borough; Forth

ingham Drainage; Shepley Lane Head and Barnsley

Road; Harwell and Streatley Road; Winwick Rectory;

Lady Sandy's (Turner's) Estate; Kidwelly Inclosure. PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Clergy of West Grinstead,

and several other parishes, in favour of the Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics Bill.-By Lord Camoys,

and Earl of Eldon, from Fellows or Tutors of Oxford University, of Catholic Inhabitants of Cork, and from

Roman Catholic Bishops and Clergy of United Dioceses of Waterford and Lismore, against the Colleges (Ireland Bill.-By Lord Stanley, from Managers, Professors,

and Visitors of Royal Belfast Academical Institution, and

defeated and disgraced. But, thanks to the transcendent talents and skill of his

noble Friend (the Duke of Wellington), and the bravery and heroism of the troops who acted under him, the glory of the British arms was not only maintained, but the flag of England was planted on the soil of France. Every one would admit that the British soldiers did their duty during that period-not in one short campaign alone, but during a struggle, the du

from various Literary Societies, and from Inhabitants of Belfast, in favour of the Colleges (Ireland) Bill. From especially on the Sabbath.-From Merchants, Bankers, and others of Cambridge, for Amendment of Law relat-ration of which extended for several years.

Withington, for the Better Regulation of Beer Houses,

ing to Bankruptey and Insolvency.

PENINSULAR OFFICERS.] The Duke of Richmond said, in accordance with the Notice which he had given on Friday last, he begged leave to present a petition from the undecorated officers who had served in the Peninsular war, on the subject of decorations conferred on the army engaged in the late war; and praying that this House will interpose in behalf of the said officers, and bring their case to the notice of Her Most Gracious Majesty. The petition was drawn up in so proper and respectful a manner, that he felt the best course he could adopt would be to read a

Nor should it be forgotten that, throughout all that time, they were opposed by the veteran legions of Napoleon-by men who had been reared in the midst of war, and who were as intelligent as they were intrepid. He would not urge, in support of the claims of the petitioners, any fear that the English army would not hereafter do its duty. On the contrary, he believed their brave armies would ever be found ready to maintain the honour of their Sovereign and their country. He believed that the natural bravery of the soldier-the enthusiastic esprit du corps which he possessed-the feeling that, on

his own personal exertions, as it were, might depend the fate of the day, would ever lead the British soldier to do his duty. He would not, therefore, put the case of the petitioners on this ground, but he asked what they required as a simple act of justice; for he could regard a debt of gratitude only as an act of justice, and in this light he was sure the country at large would also view it. He did not wish to impute blame to any individual in the country, still less to his noble Friend the noble Duke, for whom he ever did and ever would entertain the strongest feelings of attachment and regard. He sought not to attach blame to those who gave medals to the men who fought and conquered at Waterloo, and to those who conferred the honours that were bestowed on the soldiers who fought their battles in India and China; but this he would say, why should they not place those whom they saw covered with wounds received in the Peninsular campaigns, on the same footing with their brethren in arms? He felt that, in presenting this petition, he was but doing his duty to their Lordships in offering these remarks. He would not detain the House longer, because he felt it was unnecessary for him to recapitulate the heroic achievements of the great army to which he had been referring. He felt it to be a personal compliment to himself to have this petition entrusted to him for presentation, by gentlemen with whom he had become acquainted in early life, and for whom he necessarily felt a deep admiration, on account of their heroic deeds. In conclusion, he begged to present this petition from the veterans of the Peninsular war.

wards them and towards the Government during a considerable number of years. I stated to them that it had been my duty for several years to report their conduct, whether as an army, or as divisions of that army, in brigades or regiments, or as individuals belonging to the army, to the Government of the Crown, and to bring it thus under the knowledge of the Sovereign: but, my Lords, I stated that as to the rewards to the army, these were matters to which I could otherwise make no reference-that they were acts which were confined to the Sovereign, and to the advisers of the Sovereign-and that in this light I had never presumed to interfere in any manner, excepting when called upon to give my opinion, or to carry into execution the orders of the Sovereign to recommend persons for honourable marks of distinction. My Lords, I then recommended those Gentlemen to make their representation to the Sovereign through the proper channel. Since I received notice from my noble Friend of his intention to present this petition, I have inquired whether any such application has been since made; and I can not only fiud no trace of such application, but I cannot find any account of such an application having been ever made. I have heard, indeed, that a similar petition to that which my noble Friend has brought before your Lordships was presented by an hon. Gentleman in another place; and the present petition is addressed to your Lordships. But, I beg leave to submit to your Lordships, that the proper course for these petitioners to adopt is, to present their petition to the Sovereign, and not to come to the Houses of Parliament in The Duke of Wellington: My Lords, order to require the interference of the the petitioners do me but justice in stat- Legislature in a matter which is strictly ing that I have never mentioned or re- and exclusively the prerogative of the ferred to the war in the Peninsula except- Sovereign. My Lords, I invariably, and ing in terms of praise of their conduct. I believe, in a satisfactory manner-at But, my Lords, it gives me the greatest least I never heard a complaint on the to feel myself under the ne- subject - reported the services of the cessity of submitting to your Lord-army, or of the individuals composing it, ships, that your Lordships cannot re- to the attention of the Sovereign. I have gularly, and according to your usual frequently received the order of the Sovepractice, interfere in a question of this de- reign to recommend officers of distinction scription. Some years have elapsed since for reward and promotion; and not only these same petitioners made an applica-have I received such directions from the tion to me if I recollect rightly in the Sovereign of this country, but in repeated year 1840-on the same subject which instances from the Allies of the Sovereign they have now brought under your Lord-of this country; and I have submitted ships' consideration. I then stated to them the names of officers to those Sovereigns, the relation in which I had stood both to- I hope in a manner satisfactory to those

concern