Sir James Duke deplored the tone in which the discussion had been carried on on one side of the House, and deprecated the mercenary spirit so frequently during the debate attributed, but he believed upon no good grounds, to the seamen of the British Navy. The House divided on the Question, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question :-Ayes 69; Noes 27: Majority 42. advantages, so great that no man could| trust himself beforehand to calculate them, he thought that it was an occasion on which Government would be justified in taking a more liberal view of the claims now submitted to them, than under the different circumstances they would be inclined to apply to similar demands. He thought that the Government had not, on this occasion, given way so much as they might to that spontaneous impulse which, the right hon. Baronet stated, was apt to animate a Ministry upon such questions. He could only hope that, whether Government would, or would not, refuse the Motion of his hon, aud gallant Friend, that no course which they might take, that no majority which they might command, would prevent them from giving these matters a fair and liberal consideration; and should it be found, on a comparison of what had been done in similar cases with what had been done in this, that the scale of recompense to the naval and military forces had been lowered from its old standard, then, he hoped, that nothing which had passed would be taken to pledge Government so as to preclude them from giving the united service a more ample reward. Antrobus, E. Barkly, H. List of the AYES. Greene, T. Herbert, rt. hon. S. Howard, P. H. Hughes, W. B. Jermyn, Earl Baring, rt. hon. W. B. Henley, J. W. Captain Harris had no doubt the sol- sum stances. Captain Plumridge thought that the appeal made by his hon. and gallant Friend was to the justice, not to the liberality, of the House. The shares awarded to petty officers were no payment for the services they had performed, and the dangers they had undergone. He contended that the petty officers had a right to a larger share of the prize money that the common sailors and boys. It was all very well to talk about honour and glory to seamen, but prize money was the great stimulus to which they always had and always would look. Kemble, H. Smith, rt. hn, T. B. C. TELLERS. Baring, H. List of the NOES. IRISH ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.] On the Motion that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, gone in the annual outgoings. When he saw such an amount gone in such a way, he thought he should not discharge his duty, if he did not call on the House to check this great and growing evil. Sir T. Fremantle was not prepared to dispute in the main the statement made by the hon. Gentleman; but he must state at the outset that the attention of the Government had, for some time, been directed to this subject, and that, at the suggestion of his right hon. Friend the Secretary for th: Home Department, an official communication had been made by the Lord Lieutenant to the Ecclesiastical Board, calling their attention to the circumstance of the money realized under the Commission not being devoted to the annual expenditure. It must be borne in mind that these Com tion, over which the Government had no direct control; and they must judge for themselves as to the manner of exercising those powers entrusted to them by Act of Parliament. The two points to which the hon. Gentleman had called attention were the terms on which the leases had been converted into perpetuities, and the mode in which the money realized had been expended. Now, a large number of the tenants holding Church leases had not converted them into perpetuities. Only one-third, and no more, had availed them Mr. Evelyn Denison rose to call the attention of the House to the management and disposal of that part of the property of the Irish Church vested in the hands of the Irish Ecclesiastical Commissioners. The hon. Gentleman commenced by stating that the Irish Ecclesiastical Commission had received upwards of 450,000l., as the produce of lands sold under their direction in Ireland. He had taken some pains to ascertain the average value of land in that country. In England it was worth about thirty years' purchase; but in Ireland, taking one year with another, he thought that he was with in the mark in stating that the land there was worth at an average above twenty-missioners were an independent corporathree years' purchase. Notwithstanding this, however, the land under the charge of the Commission had none of it been sold at a higher rate than twenty years' purchase. Now, if land worth twentythree years' purchase had been sold for twenty, it would appear that a much larger sum than 450,000l. ought to have been realized by the Commission, had they properly exercised their functions. It was impossible to look into the subject without seeing that property, to a very large amount, had been sacrificed by this system of management. It would perhaps, be asked, how if such terms had been offered to the lessees, had not all the Church property held in Ireland been converted into freehold property, and so enfranchised? The reason was this: at the end of the Temporalities Bill was a clause permitting all persons whose property fell into the hands of the Commissioners, to renew their leases on the same terms as those on which they had been in the habit of renewing them under the bishops. The consequence was, that when a lessee thought that he had made a good bargain in enfranchising his land, his neighbour would probably tell him that he might have obtained the same advantages without the three years' purchase, as by the Bill a power was guaranteed of obtaining the renewal of leases, and without those chances and contingencies under which they were held under the former tenure. Now, he wished to know what had become of the money sacrificed to this system of management pursued by the Commission? Every farthing was selves of the terms offered. He believed that in the suppressed sees the fines were fixed on the renewal of the leases. That power did not exist as to the sees not suppressed. As to the manner in which the money had been expended, he was not prepared to say that if greater economy was used, a considerable sum might not have been saved. But, at the same time, he must point out the heavy charges which the Commission had to meet. There was, in the first place, the repair and rebuilding of all the churches in Ireland; and no doubt when the trust was first undertaken the churches were in a dilapidated state. A heavy expenditure was therefore incurred in repairing old churches and building new ones; and the Commissioners had often to determine, when local contributions in favour of such an object were large, whether it would not be better to advance a somewhat larger sum for the erection of new churches, than to expend a smaller amount in inadequate repairs of old churches. Under this head the sums expended were 69,000l. and 54,0007. some years, and even 26,0007. last year. annum. a sum For the requisites of divine service the , to call the attention of the Lord Lieu. sum laid out was 32,0001. The expenses tenant to the facts disclosed. He differed of the Board itself were 6,0001., and the from the hon. Gentleman as to his estiwhole expenditure was about 79,0001, per mate of the inadequacy of the sales arising The Archbishop of Dublin told from the conversion of church leases. It him that there were applications for being the object (for purposes of general churches to the amount of 100,0001., policy) to render those conversions general which the Board was unable to answer. within a limited time, it was of course deHe did not undertake to say that this sirable to hold out inducements to the statement was perfectly satisfactory; and tenants to come into the terms of the Conhe did not at all deprecate the attention of missioners. He believed, after careful the Government being called to the sub- and anxious inquiry, that the terms were ject. He hoped when a larger revenue only liberal and fair. Having stated that accrued that the expenditure would be he concurred in the other view of the hon. kept within the income, and that the Gentleman, that the expenditure of the amount realized by the sale of perpetuities capital, instead of considering the sum reawould be devoted to the annual expendi- lized as an usufruct, was, though in conture, and not wholly disbursed. formity with the Act of Parliament, an unMr. Hawes must say the statement of fortunate view taken by the Commissioners the right hon. Gentleman was anything of their duties as trustees. He considered but satisfactory. Here was of that this money was, in the broadest sense, 450,0001. realized by the conversion of trust money, and he demurred altogether leases into perpetuities, and they were told to its being devoted to Maynooth, or perthe whole capital was expended already. verted in any way from the original use. The people of England had a direct in- [Mr. Hawes : But the Church has not got terest in this question ; for he did not see the money.] It must be recollected that why, if this property were properly ma- when the Church Temporalities Act naged, it might not have been devoted to passed, a heavy burden was raised by a such a purpose as that of increasing the vestry cess on persons of every persuasion, College of Maynooth. The right hon. for the maintenance of the fabric of the Gentleman said the expenses of the Com- Church and the usages of worship. That mission were 6,0001. He found by a re- was felt to be a great grievance; and, with turn on the Table they were double that the view of promoting peace and concord, amount. When Lord Stanley's Act had a sum of 50,0001, a year was cast on the led to consequences so pernicious, he did property of the Church of Ireland. In not see why the Government did not im- consequence of the opposition to such a mediately take steps to amend it. The charge, the fabrics of the Church had, in Government acknowledged the mode of many instances, fallen into decay. And applying the money to be unwise, and yet the average expenditure of the Commisthey permitted half a million of money to sioners for the first years of its operation be wasted. It was said, however, that this was much higher than it would be in fuLody was a corporation, and the Govern- ture. In many cases, too, the claims put ment could not interfere with it. But forward by private subscribers for aid, were Parliament, which created the body, could felt to be irresistible, and such advances surely remedy the evils which it caused. / were, of course, made out of the funds of If there was a loss of 500,0001. on a third the Church. Out of a loan also of of these conversions, it was easy to calcu- 100,0001. 40,0001. had been repaid. But, late that a million and a half would be lost on the whole, he considered it an unsound a on the remainder. He called on the friends and unwise discretion—that for the inof the Church to see this subject sifted, terest of the Church, well understood and and he put it to the Secretary for the carefully guarded, the capital realized by Home Department, whether he could have the sale of these leases should be expended. any objection to appoint a Committee to There were on the Board two paid Cominquire into this subject ? missioners. The Executive had, therefore, Sir James Graham acknowledged this a direct control over it. And he was bound was a very grave subject, and by no means to state that the official communication of improperly brought under the considera- the Lord Lieutenant was received by the tion of the House. It was a question Commissioners in a most frank and candid which attracted his anxious attention, and spirit. They stated that the amount of nearly a year ago he thought it necessary capital expended in the last year was less VOL. LXXXII. { 2 A a Third Series } 1 than that in the antecedent; and he had tenant only existed as a cover for a horrible that there would be some strong steps sum for clerks, archi- House that 100,0001. given by the late tects, solicitors, &c., amounted up to Government as a part of the 1,000,0001. ad13,5871. The expenditure was very great, vanced to the clergy of the Irish Church, not to say anything worse of the Board. had been since taken away from them. They at first paid their architects by a per Mr. M. J. O'Connell said, he thought the centage on the outlay for their works, and discussion which had taken place on the this sometimes amounted to 9 per cent. question a very important one. They had They were now placed on salaries. But very strong contradictions between tiro this only showed bow necessary it was to right hon. Secretaries--one, the right hon. look into the proceedings of this body. He Baronet the Chief Secretary for Ireland, did not want to throw blame on the Go- having stated that the Ecclesiastical Comvernment, for previous Governments were missioners were independent of the Gomore to blame than the present; but it vernment--and the other, the right bon. really seemed as if the office of Lord Lieu- Baronet the flome Secretary having alleged a that they were completely under the con. the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor trol of the Government. However, it ap- of the Exchequer whether there was really peared that the right hon. Chief Secretary any necessity for having seven lawyers in of Ireland was right; for the right hon. this department. They had a solicitor, an Baronet (Sir James Graham) had admitted assistant solicitor, and five clerks, all of that he had called attention to the matter whom, he presumed, were lawyers, and the nine months ago without effect. There salaries of these officers amounted to no less appeared to be great discrepancies as to the than 6,0111. 10s. He also perceived that value of the property sold; but one thing, the estimated cost of prosecutions was put he thought, was clear, and that was, that down as 26,0001., and he thought the the subject could not be left as it stood at House should not vote such a sum without present. He would beg to suggest to the being at least apprized of what these prohon. Member for Malton (Mr. J. E. Deni- secutions were. son), the propriety of his moving for the Mr. Cardwell said, the Solicitor for the appointment of a Committee next Session Treasury had to discharge the business of to investigate the matter. In his opinion, no less than thirteen departments of the there was no use in going into the question public service. The gentleman who at : of the establishment of this Board. But present filled that situation, was a most finding it established, and that it worked invaluable public officer; and by all who badly, they had a right—no matter what were acquainted with the manner in which opinions they might entertain as to church he discharged his duties, the amount of saproperty in Ireland--to call for inquiry, lary which he received -2,8501.-would, and, if necessary, for further legislative he was convinced, not be thought too great. provisions. Arrangements had, however, been made, Sir Thomas Fremantle begged to ex. by which, on any future occasion, the genplain. It was a mistake to suppose that he tleman selected to fill that office would not was at all indifferent on the subject. He receive more than 2,0001. a year. The had already taken occasion to express his prosecutions were such as would be necessatisfaction that the question had been sary in the thirteen departments to which brought under the notice of the House, he had alluded; but on this subject the hon. and he was fully sensible of the great im- Gentleman might rest assured that the portance which was to be attached to it. greatest economy would be practised. Mr. Grogan said, he was glad that an Vote agreed to. investigation was likely to take place on The next Vote was 16,2181. to defray the question ; as he believed the Board the expenses of the Pentonville Prison. had not given entire satisfaction either to Mr. W. Williams said there were 475 the clergy or the public. He would mention one instance, which had come under prisoners in this prison, and the salaries of his own notice. It was the case of a parish the officers placed over that number of church in Dublin, which had been taken prisoners amounted to no less than 7,5581., down as being unsafe. The parishioners being an average of 161. for taking care had, it was true, consented to the removal of each prisoner. In addition to that sum of the church ; but it was on the supposi- there was a cost of 311. for each prisoner. tion that it would be rebuilt. Repeated Now, it had been shown by the Anti-Cornapplications had been made to the Com-law League that the wages of an agriculmissioners to rebuild it, but without suc- tural labourer in the southern counties cess, as they persisted in declaring they was, an average, not more than 7s. had no funds for the purpose. a week, or 181. 45. a year, so that the cost of one condemned felon was more than Supply-MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.] the amount of the entire support of two House went into Committec of Supply on families of the labouring population. The the Miscellaneous Estimates and Civil Con- salaries of the persons employed 10 teach tingencies. the prisoners trades and manufactures On the First Vote being moved, of amounted to 1,5001.; while the entire pro32,0111. 10s. to defray law charges, and duce of their labour aniounted to only the salaries, allowances, and incidental 1,4981., or 121. less than the salaries expenses in the office of the Solicitor amounted to. Thus, notwithstanding all for the affairs of Her Majesty's Treasury that had been said in praise of this labour for the year 1845-6, system, the result was, that the produce Mr. W. Williams wished to know from of each prisoner's work was less than 14d. |