two additional Judges, an improvement might be made in the mode of doing chamber business, which was now done in a way highly unsatisfactory to the suitor. The two Judges might sit permanently in a court, with the check and advice of a Bar. A single Judge now in chambers hardly could be said to have full possession of his faculties, during the hurry and heat of a mob of attorneys' clerks. He wished that chamber practice were brought more into public, and if the number of Judges were increased, one objection, as to the want of employment for them in some parts of the year, might thereby be obviated. The Duke of Richmond said, that one objection to the Bill was the increase it would cause to the county rates. Why, he would ask, were the charges required for the purposes of the Bill to be imposed on the county rates, and not to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund? He liked his noble and learned Friend's latter proposition much better. Commission should be issued by the Crown, to consider the whole subject, and, as part of it, the distribution of England and Ireland into circuits, and the division of the year between term and vacation. What he (Lord Campbell) anxiously desired was, that there should be joint consideration of what should be done in England, and what should be done in Ireland. His noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack would find no difficulty in selecting a number of Irish Judges and barristers to join with English Judges and barristers for this purpose. He had on a former occasion ventured to suggest to their Lordships, that most important measure which, in his humble opinion, would do more to consolidate the Union than anything that had been done since the Act of Parliament passed-that was, as his noble Friend on the cross bench (the Duke of Richmond) remarked, in a loud whisper (he hoped it was heard all over the House, for it would not increase the county rates)— that there should be an interchange of Lord Campbell was very far from being Judges between England and Ireland. adverse to the principle of his noble and The law was the same in both countries; learned Friend's Bill. He was ready to there was not the smallest doubt that the agree that it might be found expedient to Irish Judges were as learned and as comconsolidate counties, and work on the petent in all respects as the English to principle of the Central Criminal Court administer the law, and the people of EngBill, which had been found most beneficial land would be perfectly satisfied with their in its operation. He would, however, ad- decisions. The English Judges, again, vise his noble and learned Friend to post-going into Ireland, and carrying the authopone the Bill for the present Session, because he doubted whether, as it now stood, it would work at all, and whether is could be framed during the present Session so as to be carried into effect. There were many parts of the present Bill -the apportionment of the expenses, the places whence the jury were to be sum-land there were now six circuits, several of moned, and where the prisoner was to be them so short that they might be got over tried, how the judgment was to be carried in three weeks. The Irish circuits, thereinto execution-which would require the fore, might be consolidated, and reduced most careful consideration. He should say to five, so that ten Judges would be quite that the consolidation should be carried sufficient for the administration of justice into effect rather by Act of Parliamnet than in that country, and two spare Judges by the Sovereign in Council. If a power of would be left, who might have an English removing the prisoner from one county to circuit assigned to them. A joint Comanother for trial were to be granted, it mission would examine this point among was not difficult to see that it might prove others, and see what could be effected by one of a very dangerous nature in many the whole of the judicial staff both in cases, as, for instance, in Ireland, if a pri- England and Ireland. He (Lord Campsoner were removed from Cork to Mon-bell) had it from undoubted authority, that aghan; it would be well, therefore, that that most enlightened statesman and dethe boundaries of the districts to be cre- voted friend of Ireland, the Marquess ated should be defined by Act of Parlia-Wellesley, had a long-deliberated plan for He would suggest that another the purpose of amalgamating the law, and VOL LXXXII. {eories} Third ment. rity that belonged to them, he believed that their decisions would be received without suspicion, and with the most implicit reverence. A great deal had been said about additional Judges. There were two spare Judges in Ireland, who might be brought over, and sent a circuit. In Ire Ꭰ Upon some points he (the Lord Chancellor) would have thought that they might more naturally have referred to himself; but having limited their inquiries within the narrow definition given to their pow having Irishmen appointed to judicial si- I were to administer justice was a very imtuations in England, and Englishmen to portant consideration. He agreed in that judicial situations in Ireland. He knew part of his noble and learned Friend's from undoubted authority that that plan observations which referred to the Report had occupied much of his thoughts, and of the Commissioners. He was bound to that he was of opinion that it would be say, that he thought it an unsatisfactory practicable and beneficial. If a Joint Com-document. He was not exactly acquainted inission of English and Irish lawyers, and with the circumstances of their reference intelligent country gentlemen, were ap- to the right hon. Gentleman to whom his pointed, he was sure the greatest bene-noble and learned Friend had alluded. fit would be derived from their labours. The Bill was at present in an imperfect and crude state; to carry it into effect would be very difficult; the better plan would be, not to press it in the meantime, and for Government to issue such a Com-ers, the result undoubtedly was, that mission as he had suggested. With respect to the Commission lately issued to determine the circuits, it turned out that their powers were much more limited than was desirable with a view to their utility. He understood that they had consulted the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department, though it might have been supposed that they would act on their own view of their powers; and Sir James Graham then intimated to them that they had no power to do more than they had done. They laid all the blame at his door; but, however that was, it was agreed on all hands that the Commission had been a miscarriage. The Report was universally condemned. It could not be acted upon, and the right course would be to issue another Commission, with extensive powers, applying to Ireland as well as England; from which he thought the most beneficial consequences might be expected. The Lord Chancellor said, with regard to the suggestion of an interchange of Judges between England and Ireland, with which they had been favoured by his noble and learned Friend, perhaps he meant that it should also extend to an exchange of Chancellors, the judicial force of one country being substituted for the other, somewhat in the manner an exchange of militia was effected. It was a matter which would require a great deal of inquiry, examination, and reflection, before they acceded to that part of his noble and learned Friend's proposition. He was ready to admit that the Irish Judges were individuals who possessed a great knowledge of law, and who were in no respect inferior to those of this country; yet their acquaintance with the habits and manners of the persons to whom they their Report was entirely unsatisfactory. He might state, therefore, that he had felt it his duty to advise Her Majesty to issue a new Commission, with fresh and extensive powers, for the purpose of reporting on the ten questions which had been submitted for the opinion of those learned Commissioners, and also on others of very great magnitude connected with them, including the subjects brought under their Lordships' notice by this very Bill. With respect to the present measure, he did not see how it would satisfactorily meet the object which his noble and learned Friend had in view. Instead of going to four or five counties in succession to hold the assizes, the Judges were to assemble in one particular county, and the prisoners were to be brought from the surrounding counties to that central point. He did not know that the time now occupied by the Judges in travelling was very important; but the only time saved by the new arrangement would be that occupied in going from the one county to the other. He had always thought it better that the Judges should go to different districts in succession, than that the jurors, witnesses, prisoners, and all other persons obliged to attend the courts, should be brought from several counties round to one central point. The Bill did not provide as to the mode of summoning the juries, nor from what quarters they were to come, nor how they were to manage with respect to grand juries. Another point, of which they should not omit the consideration, was, how the prisoners on trial were to procure the attendance of their witnesses. It was a matter of very great importance to a man, generally a very poor man, on trial, perhaps, for his life. It would be no satisfaction to them were the Bill to provide that they should have their expenses reimbursed, for they had not the means of advancing the money in the first instance; and the consequence would be, that these persous would find themselves at a distance from those acquainted with the circumstances of the case, helpless, and without defence or resources. He would suggest to his noble and learned Friend, that the best course would be to let the Bill stand over for further consideration, in order to see whether the Government could meet the difficulties to which his noble and learned Friend had adverted. Lord Denman feared their Lordships would have a long time to wait if they waited till the Commission made a satisfactory Report on all the subjects to which their attention would be called, and more particularly if they included the proposal of any interchange of circuits between Ireland and England. With respect to that proposal of his noble and learned Friend, if the Government should think it right to call upon the Irish Judges to assist those of England in the performance of their duties, he was sure that no persons would receive a heartier welcome. But he thought that this Bill gave an opportunity of doing that with effect; and if they waited to see the Report of the Commission, no man could tell how few of their Lordships might live to see it. He en tirely approved of his noble and learned Friend's measure: there was only one respect in which he would wish to see it amended, by following the example set in a Bill also introduced by his noble and learned Friend-that most useful and expedient measure, the Central Criminal Court Bill-and by giving power to form convenient districts for the trial of offences. That Bill offered a complete model by which this might be done in any part of England, and the machinery might fitly be borrowed, since it was capable of being brought into practice at the earliest possible period. He thought his noble and learned Friend, in preparing his Bill, made out a case which must find its way to every man's conviction. The time of imprisonment before trial, was already too long; it ought not to be extended in any case. In his opinion, even four months might be too long; and that not merely with a view to the feelings of the prison ers, Nothing could be more inconvenient an than to bring up a man for trial, and have him acquitted by the jury, from a misplaced feeling, no doubt, but still a very natural one, in consequence of his having been so long in prison, or have him sentenced to a shorter term of imprisonment than he would otherwise have received. His opinion was, that there ought to be very frequent deliveries of jails, but that there ought not to be a third circuit. In his opinion a third winter circuit, established as a regular part of the machinery of justice in the country, would be a most enormous evil. He quite agreed that it was much more reasonable that Judges should travel, than jurors, witnesses and others connected with the administration of justice. But deliveries of jails, beyond those now provided by the regular course of procedure, ought, in his view, to be occasional, and regulated by a regard to the pressure of the particular circumstances. Suppose there was absolute necessity, from the state of the country, for sending a Commission to deliver the jails in the county of Leicester, there might be persons from Derby, Nottingham, Lincolnshire even, who were to be tried at the same time. Would it not be an immense convenience for all parties that a Central Criminal Court should dispose of that business? This travelling of Judges was not worth thinking of; but if the Commission had to be opened at several places, a great deal of time was occupied at each, and the witnesses generally came very much farther than they would have to do under the system he recommended. The last winter circuit, was, he believed, appointed with very little consideration by his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack, and after very little consultation with the Judges. The effect was, to put a stop to some of the most important business of the country going on in Westminster Hall; the Courts of Error were obliged to suspend their business. The Court of Queen's Bench had acted on a Bill passed in the year 1838, which enabled them to dispose of their arrears, at that time amounting to considerably upwards of 400 cases. They had gone on for eight years, the Judges giving up their leisure for the purpose of getting rid of the arrears, and at the end of last year they had brought the list of arrears down to very little more than 100 cases. The whole of that was sacrificed, and the arrears had risen again. This, it Ꭰ ? could not be denied, was a most serious evil; a great improvement was prevented, and the whole system was deranged by a winter circuit interfering, and taking three of the Judges. If the power of creating new districts were to be given, the Crown might exercise it according to its discretion, and the necessities of the case, in such a way as not to interfere with any important business proceedings; and so far from persons being put to increased expense, he thought a considerable saving would be effected. If their Lordships should be of opinion that the Bill was not at present in such a state that it could be brought satisfactorily into operation, if passed before the expiring of the present Session, then they must hope that the improved state of the country, and, he was very happy to add, the great diminution of crime in every part, might make it less necessary that any particular measure should be adopted. But he (Lord Denman) thought that some further measure ought to be taken, and thus the pressure -not on the Judges, who did not care where they were, provided they were serving the public, since, as they said, they must be somewhere but on the public interested in the administration of justice, might be prevented. A single instance would show, better than anything, the waste of time and money under the present system. If a man, convicted of stealing a faggot worth one penny, in a parish where he was perfectly well known, was taken before a magistrate, and pleaded guilty, expressing his sorrow for what he had done, the result was, that he might be sent eighty or 100 miles, if in the county of York, to the assize town, to take his trial, the whole county being summoned to hear the statement he had made before the magistrate; while, perhaps, in the absolute mockery of justice, he might be acquitted after all, when he had been detained in prison for six months, and the whole county put to enormous expense. Even the quarter sessions might impose the same penalty on him. There ought to be a simpler process for cases of this description, and many minor matters might be suggested, by which a great deal of trouble and expense would be saved. Lord Brougham.said, what his noble. and learned Friend on the Woolsack had stated, determined him not to press the Bill beyond a second reading until the issue of the Commission, by which, no doubt, much good would be effected. His noble and learned Friend's (Lord Denman's) opinion seemed to be to have consolidations of the counties, and that, besides the ordinary circuits, occasional Commissions should be sent, according to the exigencies of the case. He (Lord Brougham) was disposed rather in favour of permanent circuits. With respect to the Commission-he did not mean the last one, for that was deceased, and he would say nothing against the dead, it had gone the way of the Railway Board he hoped it would be altogether a new one, for he did not like to see learned Judges employed on a Commission, and thought it much better that they should be employed in the administration of the law. As to the question of the circuits, he was decidedly against employing practising barristers who went the circuits; for he found by late Reports that all the practising barristers had voted one way, naturally enough voting according to their predilections and conscientious opinions; but he would take persons who would not have to decide upon matters affecting their own business. There could be no difficulty whatever in appointing other professional men on the Commission, not connected with the administration of justice. in those districts with respect to which the questions arose. He concurred with all that had been said in praise of the manner in which the Irish Judges discharged their duties; and he must add, that what came under his own cognizance of their proceedings, confirmed his opinion as to their eminent ability. The only objection to their coming in aid of the English Judges, and the latter being occasionally transferred to Ireland, was the great apprehension with which any one must undertake the trial of a cause, when he was unacquainted with the habits, manners, and character of the people amongst whom it arose. If the Irish Judges did come, he agreed with his noble Friend (Lord Denman) that these virtuous, able men, would meet with a hearty welcome. As to the disposal of the arrear, he must say that he was not satisfied with the account given by his noble Friend (Lord Denman), of 700 cases being cleared off in seven years. Lord Denman: But all the other business was performed at the same time. Lord Brougham: Well, this was very creditable to the Judges of the Queen's Bench: but he though the real rem edy for the evil of an excessive arrear would be the addition of two Judges. He hoped the Committee about to be appointed would turn its attention to this point, as well as to another which was really as absurd as the old notion of the choice of the jury from the vicinage-he meant depriving the plaintiff of the choice of his court. Why should not the plaintiff and defendant be exactly on the same footing in this respect, particularly as the nominal plaintiff was very often the real defendant, as in an action by the person in possession for an easement? Bill read 2'. Enlargement; London and Croydon (Chatham to Chilham); London and Croydon Railway (Orpington Branch); London, Chatham, and North Kent Railway. ō and passed :-Bristol Parochial Rates (No. 2); St. Helen's Railway and Canal; Aberdare Railway. PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Sir J. Y. Buller, from C. Edwards, of Totnes, and several other Gentlemen, apologizing for Breach of Privilege.-By Mr. Botfield, from Apparitors of Hereford, for Compensation (Ecclesiastical Courts Bill).-By Mr. Oswald, and Lord John Russell, from Liverpool and Clarence, New South Wales, for Repeal of certain Acts relating to that Colony.-By Viscount Howick, from Settlers in Her Majesty's Colony of New Zealand, for a Local Representative Government there. -By Mr. Smollett, from Kirkintilloch, against Arrestment of Wages (Scotland) Bill.-By Mr. G. Hamilton, from Drogheda, for Repeal of Act relating to Carts, &c., (Dublin). By the Earl of Arundel and Surrey, Mr. AChapman, and several other hon. Gentlemen, from a great number of places, against the Charitable Trusts Bill.By Mr. T. Duncombe, from Henry Dowell Griffiths, against Commons' Inclosure Bill. BUSINESS OF THE SESSION.] Sir R. Peel said: Sir, perhaps it may be the most convenient course if, in moving the Order of the Day, I fulfil the promise which I have made, to state with respect to those legislative measures which are of the greatest importance the course which Her Majesty's Government proposes to pursue, ADMINISTRATION OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL LORD DENMAN.] Lord Denman moved the committal of this Bill. The Duke of Richmond said, he agreed with the principle of the Bill; but wished to suggest two Amendments-first, that persons convicted of bestial offences should be whipped as often as the Judge should direct; and also that no imprisonment should last longer than two years. As to the first, he thought that such a punish-seeing the very advanced period of the ment might well be inflicted on the men who were generally found to cominit such offences, and who were abandoned profligates, lost to all sense of shame. As to the second suggestion, he thought no man ought to be imprisoned for a longer period Session, and the great mass of public business yet to be discharged. Before I allude House, or likely to come from the House to the Bills under the consideration of the of Lords, I will answer a question put to me a few days since in respect to those measures connected with railway legislation which have immediate relation to the Board of Trade. It will be recollected, the Government promised that, availing ourselves of the experience of Committees on Railways in the course of the Session, we would maturely consider the relation in which that department stands to railways, and that if we had any modifications to suggest either in the constitution of the Board, or in the nature of the functions it has to perform, we would indicate them at a sufficiently early period to enable the House to adopt any proceedings that might be thought necessary. In the course of the present week, therefore, either I or my right hon. Friend the Vice President of the Board of Trade, will lay on the Table of the House a Minute of the Board of Trade, stating the alterations that we Bill committed. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Monday, July 7, 1845. MINUTES.] NEW WRIT. For Cambridge Borough, v. BILLS. Public.-10. Geological Survey; Naval Medical Supplemental Fund Society; Land Revenue Act Amendment; Grand Jury Presentments (Dublin); Criminal Jurisdiction of Assistant Barristers (Ireland); Unlawful Daths (Ireland); Fisheries (Ireland); Bankrupts' Decla ration. 2. Schoolmasters (Scotland). Reported.-Turnpike Trusts (South Wales); Constables, think desirable to have made in the func Public Works (Ireland). Private.-1 Shrewsbury and Holyhead Road. Yoker Road (No. 2); Morden College; Earl of Onslow's (Ellerker's) Estate; Lord Monson's Estate. Reported-Lady Sandy's (or Turner's) Estate; South Eastern Railway (Tunbridge to Tunbridge Wells); South Eastern Railway (Widening and Extension of the London and Greenwich Railway); London and Croydon Railway tions that were last year suggested it should undertake with respect to Railway Bills. I believe the general purport of the Minute will be to continue the Board as the guardian of the public interests, giving it a power to report whether any particular |