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of Jrisha paupers,

Colebrooke, Sir T. E. Morrison, G.

On Clause 73, providing for the removal Corry, right hon. H. Muntz, G. F. Denison, J. E. Murphy, F. s. Divett, E. Nicholi, rt. hon. J.

Sir J. Graham, in reply to the observaDuncan, Visct, O'Connell, M.J.

tions of the hon. Member for Lanark, said, Duncan, G. Ogle, S. C.H.

that when the Bill was first introduced, it Duncombe, T. Pattison, J.

was intimated by the Government that it Dundas, F. Pechell, Capt,

was impossible to make such a measure Fielden, J.

Peel, rt, hn, Sir R. perfect in the first instance, and that Forster, M. Peel, J.

Amendments would necessarily be introFremantle, rt, ho, Sirt, Plumridge, Capt. duced in Committee, founded on the inforFrench, F. Polhill, F.

mation and the arguments advanced by Gaskell, J. M. Protheroe, E. Gibson, T. M.

those who were locally acquainted with the Roche, E. B. Giil, T. Rous, hon. Capt.

country. For the change introduced in Gordon, hon: Capt. Russell, Lord J.

this particular clause he was himself reGoulburn, rt. hon. H. Sandon, Visct.

sponsible, as, upon mature consideration, he Graham, rt. hon. Sir J. Seymour, Lord

did not think the clause, as originally Greene, T. Smith, J. A.

brought in, was sufficient. Halford, Sir H. Smith, rt. hn, T. B. C. Mr. P. M. Stewart said, all that had Hamilton, C. J. B. Somerville, Sir W. M. transpired in regard to this Bill showed Hamilton, Lord C. Stewart, P.M.

the propriety of postponing this measure Harcourt, G, G. Sutton, hon. H. M. Hawes, B.

till a future Session. He had exhausted Thesiger, Sir F. Herbert, rt, hon. S. Thornely, T.

all fair means to effect the object, and he

trusted that he should resort to none that Hope, hon. C.

Trelawny, J.S. Hope, G. W.

Vane, Lord H. were unfair. He must say that the ScotIrving, J.

Villiers, hon. C. tish Members had not been fairly treated Jermyn, Earl

Warburton, H. in regard to these alterations, which had Jones, Capt. Ward, H. G.

been introduced by the Government withLennox, Lord A. Wawn, J.T.

out any intimation whatever. Lincoln, Earl of Wellesley, Lord C.

Sir J. Graham observed, that whatever Lowther, Sir J. H. Williams, W. Mackenzie, W, F. Wood, Col, T.

might be the law of settlement in England, M'Neill, D. Yorke, F. R.

and whatever might be its defects, he adMangles, R. D.

mitted that Scotchmen and Irishmen were Milnes, R. M.

entitled to the full benefit of it on a perfect Moffatt, G. Young, J.

equality with Englishmen. Morris, D. Baring, H.

Sir G. Clerk contended, that as to set

tlement no difference should be made beList of the Noes.

tween the natives of Scotland, England Carew, W. H.P. Newdegate, C. N. and Ireland. He cordially supported the Dickinson, F. H. Pringle, A.

clause, and denied that there was any geo Estcourt, T. G, B, Richards, R.

neral feeling against the Bill in Scotland; Goring, C.

Spooner, R. Hope, A.

on the contrary its principle was approved Lefroy, A. Inglis, Sir R. H,

of, and the petitions against it principally Lockhart, W. Plumptre, J. P.

referred to matters of detail. Bill read a second time.

Mr. Duncan approved of the provision of the clause, requiring a five years' indus

trial residence to obtain a settlement. He Poor LAW (SCOTLAND).] The Lord contended that its application was uni

Law Advocate having moved the Order of the versal. Day for a Committee of the whole House Mr. Darby thought that Englishmen, on the Poor Law Amendment (Scotland) Scotchmen, and Irishmen, should be put on Bill,

the same footing respectively in the three Mr. Lockhart said, the Bill as it now countries. He approved of the clause as stood was in many important particulars effecting this object. different from the original measure, and Mr. P. M. Stewart objected to the hurhe thought it was only fair that the people ried mode in which alterations had been of Scotland should have an opportunity of introduced into the clause. He approved considering it in its amended form ; but he of the provision requiring five years' indusshould not persist in his Motion for its trial residence. postponement.

Sir W. Somerville hoped that the poor House in Committee.

Scotch in Ireland would be treated as the





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clause proposed to treat the poor Irish in laws, in 1818. Their First Resolution Scotland. Clause agreed to with verbal Amend

“That it is the opinion of this Committee, ments.

that the laws regulating or restraining the rate Remaining clauses agreed to.

of interest have been extensively evaded, and House resumed.

have failed of the effect of imposing a maximum Report to be received.

upon such rate; and that of late years, from the constant excess of the market rate of interest

above the rate limited by law, they have adda Bills or ExcHANG B.) On the Mo-ed to the expense incurred by the borrowers tion of Sir J. Graham, the Bills of Ex.

on real security, and that such borrowers have change Bill was read a Third Time. been compelled to resort to the mode of grantMr. M. Gibson moved to add the fol. ing annuities on lives, a mode which has been

made a cover for obtaining higher interest lowing proviso to the 1st Clause :

than the rate limited by law, and has further

subjected the borrowers to enormous charges, " That the Proviso in the recited Act, that

or forced them to make very disadvantageous nothing therein contained shall extend to the sales of their estates,” loan or forbearance of any Money upon security of any lands, tenements, or heredita- The Third Resolution was :inents, or any estate therein, shall not be

“That it is the opinion of this Committee continued by this Act.”

that the present period, when the market rate

of interest is below the legal rate, affords an The House would observe that this Bill opportunity peculiarly proper for the repeal was for the continuance of an Act which of the said laws." passed in 1839, abolishing the usury laws, Now, the present moment was just such as to Bills of Exchange, and loans above

as the Committee referred to, when there the value of 101. The former and present Bills contained each a proviso exempting money at 34 and 4 per cent. on good

were advertisements every day offering from their operation "lands, tenements, landed security, their law was in operative. and hereditament.” Money could not be But it might happen that the market rate raised on these, except at 5 per cent. Now, would rise above the legal; and should his proviso was for the purpose of abolishing that be the case, the landholder could not this exemption. His object was to give raise money at 5 per cent., but must have a more free scope to the system of legisla

recourse to annuities, or to the sale of his tion which had now continued for several

estale at a great sacrifice. It was well years. He believed they were indebied to the hon. Member for Kendal, for the known that in building transactions, men

. first inroad on the usury laws. A period were now greatly jeopardized by the that attempt was made, and he thought the Committee to which he referred, were of twenty-two years had elapsed since uncertainty attending the usury laws.

Amongst the witnesses examined before the most timid and apprehensive person Sir S. Romilly, and Sir E. Sugden. The could not object 10 see the principle carried further. Indeed, it was most diffi

testimony of the former wascult to understand why one portion of the “ Has your experience enabled you to community should be at liberty to make form an opinion as to the operation of the their own money bargains, and another usury laws upon the landed interest ? deprived of any such power. He could

As far as my experience goes, I should

say, that the laws against usury are very inperfectly understand that one rate of in- jurious to the landed interest. The effect of ierest should be fixed by law for the ihem, I think, is, that when the proprietors of whole community; but could not under- estates are under the necessity of raising mostand that some should be allowed to ney at times when money is extremely scarce, raise money on personal security, at any they are obliged to raise it by the granting of rate of interest they thought fit, and that annuities or in other modes extremely disadothers should not be able to do so on

vantageous to themselves." their title-deeds or other landed security. Sir E. Sugden, the ablest real property He believed this restriction was extremely lawyer of this country, was also exinjurious 10 the landed interest; and !hat amined. He was asked was not his opinion solely, but that of the

“Ilave the usury laws been beneficial, or Commillee, composed of most able men, otherwise, to the landed proprietor ?— They who sat on the subject of our usury have been decidedly inimical to the interest

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647 Bills of Exchange. {COMMONS} Bills of Exchange. 648 of the landed proprietor. Every landed of the exorbitant rates at which they proprietor will have money when he wants borrowed capital. He knew himself one it, and there are always two rates of inter- instance where a man, formerly in affluent est; one the market rate, the other the legal rate. If the market rate rises above circumstances, bad become reduced to deep the legal rate, the landed proprietor must

indigence. The cause of this was discovered necessarily resort to some shift to evade to be the usurious terms at which he had the usury laws; this is done under the co- borrowed money. He obtained a loan at lour of granting life annuities. In all such as high a rate of interest as 60 per cent. dealings, the transaction is, in truth, a loan; He (Mr. Williams) could remember that the party advancing the money always fixes at the period from 1839 to the beginning upon a rate per cent. at which he is willing of 1841, as much as 15, 20, and 25 per to lend the money, to which he adds the costs of the insurance. The higher the terms are,

cent, was paid upon advances of money the more the transaction assumes the shape for investment in trade. He could not of a loan, because the very exorbitancy of the assent to the argument that had been used terms renders it an act of duty on the part of by the hon. Meinber for Manchester, that the borrower towards himself to repurchase money should be had as freely as possible. the annuity as soon as he possibly can; for in He (Mr. Williains) thought that while the all these cases, without any exception, a power precious metals did not form the only cirto repurchase is inserted in the grant of the annuity. And, in speaking of such transac- culating medium, but forty-five to fifty tions, I have invariably observed, that the millions in bank notes were in exist. parties treat them as loans, and not as a ence, it was highly inexpedient to leave purchase out and out of an annuity. the rate of interest without defined limits.

" Are you aware of any inconvenience that He might refer to the whole current of would result from the repeal of those laws ?- ancient and modern history for confirma. I have latterly turned that over frequently in lion of his assertion, that the sanction of my mind, and I entertain a confident opinion that the repeal of those laws would not in usury had constantly injured nations. Beany manner prejudice the landed interest.” sides, there were the denunciations of The fact was, these laws were the last Hon. Members might disregard that as an

Scripture against the crime. [“ Hear.") remnant of a barbarous system of legisla- authority; but if it were to have its proper tion, and should not in any way be coun

weight, then the denunciations against tenanced by the Legislature, after the experience we had had of the working of a dissuasives from the policy the hon. Gen.

the vice of usury should be attended to as contrary principle.

ileman recommended. The class of perClause brought up and read a first

sons most liable to be injured by the abotime.

lition of the usury laws would be the most On the Question, that the clause be weak and needy class of the community; read a Second Time.

and those who would prey upon their ne. Mr. W. Williams said, that if the Bill cessities would be the most grasping and were allowed to pass, he should support rapacious. It was to protect the former the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. that he should consider it his duty, if the M. Gibson). He (Mr. Williams) could Bill were proposed to be passed for more see no reason why land should be ex- than one year, to move that it pass

that cepted from the general rule in the trans- day three months. actions to which this measure referred. The Chancellor of the Exchequer felt He considered, however, that the Bill himself relieved from going deeply into the ought not to pass for the period proposed. question by the great discrepancy between He considered five years far too long for the position of the hon. Member for Manits duration. He considered that its ten- chester, and that of the hon. Member for dency would be to inflict a great evil upon Coventry (Mr. Williams). Seeing the the snaller class of shopkeepers and per- lateness of the Session, he had abstained sons of the same rank in life. He did not from raising a discussion upon a topic say that the rate of interest should be re- which he knew, if entered upon, would stricted to five per cent., but he thought have had the effect of postponing the passthat some limiis should be fixed.

measure which he believed had ever usury had prevailed, the most inju- proved useful to the community. The rious consequences had ensued. In a great Bill, in fact, was only a renewal of the number of bankruptcies it would be found Acts which had passed in 1837, 1839, that the parties bad failed in consequence (1840, 1841, 1843, and 1845. The hon.

Wher-ing a

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Member for Manchester had complained nience. With respect to the limitation of that the effect of the clause he proposed the period, the late Government, he must to exclude, had been to prevent the exten- remind the right hon. Gentleman, had alsion of building speculations. He would ways proposed that the Bill should be perrefer to the rapid progress of building in manent; it was the House of Lords which the metropolis and its vicinity, to show limited the term to one or two years. Not how little this effect had followed. There only were former Bills, as they had been was a good reason why they should not introduced, permanent, but they were also suddenly abrogate the provision. If they general, not exempting the landed interest. were to start de novo, no doubt the free- In the present state of our legislation, the dom of money would be beneficial to the usury laws did not apply to Bills running landed interest ; but circumstances had for three months. What sense there was occurred which prevented the landed pro. in freeing Bills for three months, and not prietors from acting upon the same terms also Bills for twelve months, he could not with the lender as others who had bor- see. Nothing was more apparent, from rowed nioney. The lender had frequently the evidence before the Committee, than the power of compelling the landed bor- that a repeal of the usury laws would rower to pay money at a rate above the be beneficial. He regretted that the Chanaverage value in the market. No doubt cellor of the Exchequer had thought it the landed proprietor might originally have necessary to make his measure a made arrangements for his own protection; continuation of the former Bill, for there but it would be unfair to alter the exist- bad been trial enough of the principle, and ing system without giving time to the the Bill might have been made a permalanded interest to make such arrange- nent one, without exhibiting that appearments as would relieve them from ihe ance of insecurity which a temporary chance of exaction. Without then de- measure presented. He hoped, at all ciding the question whether the distinc-events, that the right hon. Baronet would tion ought for ever to continue between allow a Committee next year. money borrowed upon land and upon Sir R. Peel said, that when it had first other security, he thought that the House been proposed to relax the usury laws, would do well to continue the existing great opposition had been made by many law for the limited period proposed by the parties connected with commerce. They present Bill. He did not think it neces. bad argued that the relaxation would subsary to enter into a discussion with the ject them to the greatest inconvenience, hon. Member for Coventry as to the be- and the greatest danger, inasmuch nefit of the usury laws. That question it would enable persons to exact an interest had been already decided. He would of more than five per cent upon money. only say that he believed many traders in But experience had proved that the relaxaihis city had been saved from ruin by be- tion was of the greatest possible advantage ing able to borrow, at short periods, the to commerce, and that the prohibition io sum necessary for preserving their credit. advance money upon good security for

Mr. Francis T. Baring collected, from what that money was worth, really opewhat had fallen from the right hon. Gen- rated most injuriously on commerce. He tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, did not believe that the present restriction that he was not unfavourable to the prin- respecting the advancement of money ciple of the clause. He would suggest upon land, was for the benefit of the that if the Government, in a future Ses landed interest. But he was aware that sion, would consent to the appointment of great apprehension was entertained upon a Committee to examine into the effect of that subject; and he did not think it the usury laws on the landed interest, would be advisable, by any immediate and and have an inquiry into their operation, violent change, to create great and unneit would be better to pass the Bill in its cessary alarm. He could, under these present shape without ihis clause. Such circumstances, see no objection to the apan inquiry, he had no doubt, would have pointment, during the next Session, of a the effect of convincing every man (he only Select Committee, which might by its lawondered that a sensible man could have bours throw new light upon the subject. any difficulty as to the point) that they Mr. Warburton thought his hon. Friend were, in point of fact, by being exempted might be perfectly satistied with the result under this Bill, suffering great inconve- of the discussion, as he had obtained the



lums (Ireland).

admission that the trade in money ought to not been aware that that could be done ; be as free as the trade in any other com- but, if not, the law ought to be altered; it modity. There had been ample experience would impose a considerable check on of the good working of ihe Bill, both such outrages, and be an inducement to when there was a great pressure upon the the respectable neighbours to prevent money market, and when there was an crime or apprehend the murderer. The abundance of money. He recommended noble Marquess then said, that he would his hon, Friend to take the Five Years' Bill, proceed to ask the Government, pursuant which was a further extension of the prin- to notice, what course they meant to pure ciple ihan had yet been obtained, and to sue with regard 10 Mr. Watson, a magis. bring in a Bill next year to do away with trate and deputy-lieutenant of the county the usury laws as applicable to the landed of Antrim ? ' It had been thought proper interest.

not lo renew the Party Processions Act, Mr. Vernon Smith recommended his which expired a few weeks ago; and on hon. Friend not to press his Motion to a the 23rd of June a meeting was held in division.

Lisburne, attended by 300 masters of Motion negatived. Bill passed. Orange lodges, and presided over by Mr. House adjourned at a quarter past one. Watson-a most respectable gentleman,

and extremely popular in his neighbourHOUSE OF LORDS,

hood, but whose conduct in his public and

official capacity, must not therefore go Friday, July 18, 1845.

unnoticed. Resolutions were passed at MINUTES.) Bills. Public.1o. Unclaimed Stock and Di. that meeting, and signed by him, to re

vidends ; Geological Survey; Bills of Exchange, etc. ;
Criminal Jurisdiction of Assistant Barristers (Ireland); organize the Orange institutions in the
Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics ; Lunatic Asy-county, and to meet on one of the July

anniversaries, and march in procession 10 24. Waste Lands (Australia); Apprehension of Offenders ;

Field Gardens; Loan Societies; Highway Rates. the parish church, where a sermon was
3o. and passed :--Foreign Lotteries; High Constables. to be preached on the occasion. Now,
Private.-1a. Gravesend and Rochester Railway; Yoker
Road (No. 2); South Eastern Railway (Greenwich Ex. magistrates were dismissed very uucere-
tension); Dublin Pipe Water.

moniously in 1843 for attending Repeal 24. Earl of Powis's (or Robinson's) Estate ; Brighton and meetings or subscribing to the Repeal AsChichester Railway (Portsmouth Extension) ; Guildford,

sociation. Chichester, and Portsmouth Railway; Glasgow, Barr.

At no one Repeal meeting had head, and Neilston Direct Railway.

there been any serious affray, still less any Reported.-West London Railway Extension and Lease; loss of life ; but this had not been the Westminster Improvement; Marsh's (or Coxhead's) Es. tate ; Newport and Pontypool Railway; Monmouth

case with the Orange meetings, with re: and Hereford Railway; South Wales Railway ; Marquess spect to which there had been over and of Donegall's Estate. 3*. and passed :--Follett's Estate ; Duke of Bridgewater's

over again cases in which magistrates had Trustees' Estate ; A berdare Railway; Norwich and Bran- been called upon to act. He did not apdon Railway (Diss and Dereham Branches); Saint Helen's prove of the dismissal of the Repeal maImprovement; Winchester College Estate; Liverpool and Bury Railway (Bolton, Wigan, and Liverpool Rail. gistrales ; he deemed it unconstitutional way and Bury Extension).

and unjust, and he believed at the time it

would be one-sided; but, at any rate, it DISTURBANCES IN LEITRIM.] The showed the wish of Government to dis. Marquess of Clanricarde presented a peri- countenance Repeal and Repeal meetings. tion from magistrates, resident gentry, and It was said that this was done because inhabitants of the county of Leitrim, set. Parliament bad disapproved the object of ting forth the disturbed condition of the the Repeal meetings; but what did the county, and praying for the adoption of Act which had just expired show, except measures for the protection of life and that both Houses of Parliament and the property. The petition suggested that Crown bad serious objections to the the law which granted compensation to Orange processions ? The meetings in the be levied on the county or barony, in case one case also were held for the purpose of of malicious injury being done to a parti- pelitioning Parliament, but in the other cular description of property, should be case there was no such object. He bad, extended to all kinds of property, and however, deemed it unwise to dismiss the also to injury inflicted on the person. Itap-Repeal magistrates, because, in the first peared from the newspapers that 5001. had place, it gave countenance to the opinion been awarded as compensation to the wi that men acting as magistrates were liable dow of Mr.Booth bythegrand jury. Hehad to be influenced in their judical duties by

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